Gay Marriage

[bellenuit]

Interesting that they are having a 'referendum' in Ireland, bellenuit.
I think it's the best way.

"So called marriage equality forces a child to miss out on a mother or a father...."

Tink, that completely lost me. How does gay marriage force a child to miss out on a mother or a father? Unless it is referring to gay adoption of kids, which is a separate issue from gay marriage and wasn't even mentioned in the clip you posted.

 

[Tink]

I have already given my reasons against, bellenuit.

Define Marriage?

For what reason is, Gay Marriage, a betterment for society?

This referendum is in Ireland, not here.

 

[Value Collector]

"So called marriage equality forces a child to miss out on a mother or a father...."

Tink, that completely lost me. How does gay marriage force a child to miss out on a mother or a father? Unless it is referring to gay adoption of kids, which is a separate issue from gay marriage and wasn't even mentioned in the clip you posted.

Seems like she has committed a logical fallacy, The slippery slope fallacy.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

Define Marriage?

.

To me a marriage is a Union between two people, who have committed to love, respect and support each other throughout life.

The term has been muddied, as it has been high jacked by religions and governments, however marriages predate both religions and governments.

Children are a separate issue, you don't need to be married to have children, and you don't need to have children to be married.

For what reason is, Gay Marriage, a betterment for society?

The recognising of gay marriages, betters society by ending discrimination in that area.

You may as well be asking the question, "for what reason is, allowing Black people to sit at the front of the bus is a betterment for society"

 

[bellenuit]

I have already given my reasons against, bellenuit.

I appreciate that Tink, but I was questioning a statement made in the video you posted.

"So called marriage equality forces a child to miss out on a mother or a father...."

It didn't make sense to me in the context of gay marriage, so I was asking you what it meant.

 

[SirRumpole]

I appreciate that Tink, but I was questioning a statement made in the video you posted.

"So called marriage equality forces a child to miss out on a mother or a father...."

It didn't make sense to me in the context of gay marriage, so I was asking you what it meant.

If a gay couple, married or not adopt of have a child by IVF, then that child misses out on a mother and/or father, so in that respect, Tink is right. Gay parenting is a different issue than gay marriage, and should be treated as such.

Just because relations between consenting adults should not be the business of anyone else, does not mean that we should not consider whether children should be forced to do without one or other biological parent and whether it has a detrimental effect on them.

 

[sydboy007]

If a gay couple, married or not adopt of have a child by IVF, then that child misses out on a mother and/or father, so in that respect, Tink is right. Gay parenting is a different issue than gay marriage, and should be treated as such.

Just because relations between consenting adults should not be the business of anyone else, does not mean that we should not consider whether children should be forced to do without one or other biological parent and whether it has a detrimental effect on them.

Therefore divorced parents are harming their children, especially if one is relatively absent. Do we need to basically outlaw divorce for the sake of the children?

The ABS shows there were 961,000 single parent families in 2012. 780,000 were single mother families. That means over 1M children will have limited to no dual parenting. That's a significant amount of harm going on there. So shouldn't we consider whether children should be forced to do without one or other biological parent and whether it has a detrimental effect on them in terms of divorce? If it's OK to force a gay couple to not be able to have children, is it OK to force 2 parents to continue their biological responsibilities till their children are 18?

Something like 1 in 4 children in single parent families are living in poverty. How can straight people be so uncaring about the children?

So shouldn't "straight" people sort out the problems they have before making up problems of gay parenting?

* there's a level of sarcasm in this post, but the questions still stand.

 

[SirRumpole]

Therefore divorced parents are harming their children, especially if one is relatively absent. Do we need to basically outlaw divorce for the sake of the children?

The divorce rate is alarming, but at least the children of heterosexuals know who both their parents are. They know their lineage and medical histories and where they sit in relation to their ancestors, unlike those raised by gay parents (or by heterosexuals with children by means of IVF) who sometimes spend years looking for their biological parents because its in our nature to want to know our ancestors.

I don't think we have the right to put them through that sort of mental torture.

 

[luutzu]

The divorce rate is alarming, but at least the children of heterosexuals know who both their parents are. They know their lineage and medical histories and where they sit in relation to their ancestors, unlike those raised by gay parents (or by heterosexuals with children by means of IVF) who sometimes spend years looking for their biological parents because its in our nature to want to know our ancestors.

I don't think we have the right to put them through that sort of mental torture.

Yea but with heterosexual parents, they can always scare their kids by saying "if I could bring you into this word, I could take you out of it and just make more."

Whereas with homosexual parents, they can't threaten their kids like that. "I will take out out of this world and then I'll go find a surrogate or IVF or adoption agency, and after a lot of hassle and background checks and all that... I'll replace you"... that doesn't scare them too much, haha

too much coffee me think.

 

[Value Collector]

The divorce rate is alarming, but at least the children of heterosexuals know who both their parents are. They know their lineage and medical histories and where they sit in relation to their ancestors, unlike those raised by gay parents (or by heterosexuals with children by means of IVF) who sometimes spend years looking for their biological parents because its in our nature to want to know our ancestors.

I don't think we have the right to put them through that sort of mental torture.

So your fine with gay marriage, and your also fine with gay parents (which is a separate topic) as long as the child knows its biological parents, is that correct?

 

[SirRumpole]

So your fine with gay marriage, and your also fine with gay parents (which is a separate topic) as long as the child knows its biological parents, is that correct?

I don't care about gay marriage either way, but I think children should be raised by BOTH biological parents unless unforeseen circumstances arise. The connection between a biological parent and child is greater than that between unrelated parents and children, I think that is undeniable. Assuming all else is equal and the B.P. is loving and not abusive.

 

[Tink]

Thanks, bellenuit, I know you are for free speech.

VC, we are entitled to our views and don't need to be bullied by the Gay Lobby.

I see children being discriminated against, not the adults.
I don't see gay people being discriminated at all, their union is exactly the same as marriage.

Agree with you, Rumpole.

Children need to be close to their parents, their mum and dad.
We should be strengthening parenthood, mothers, fathers, families, exactly what Marriage is.
This has been the best outcome through the years as nature had intended.
Makes for a healthy society
Strengthening the importance of mothers and fathers being with their children.

Money cannot buy families and children shouldn't be sold.

The mother, the father and their child -- that is Marriage.
That to me is equal as no one is missing in the equation.

Children should be taught the true meaning of Marriage.

 

[Tisme]

I don't care about gay marriage either way, but I think children should be raised by BOTH biological parents unless unforeseen circumstances arise. The connection between a biological parent and child is greater than that between unrelated parents and children, I think that is undeniable. Assuming all else is equal and the B.P. is loving and not abusive.

Yes the argument that gay parenting is OK because of breakdowns in hetro marriages is ludicrous. Social engineering will never takeaway the primal urge to mate, procreate and bond with the maternals and paternals.

Oh look at that fat person mommy, yes dear because he's fat I'm going to make you fat. That fella just exposed himself mommy, yes dear you can do that too when you grow up.......... fallacious arguments that are just as ridiculous as suggesting a child doesn't benefit (for the better) from mother/father coupling; spurious breakdown analogues aside.

I'm with Rumpole on the marriage thing, it was secondary to my love for my wife, but I'm glad I did marry to give my kids recognition of the bond between my wife and therefore normalcy, solidarity and validity to their existence. That is not to say marriage is the best, but at least it doesn't impress the kids in the family they are tantamount to pets and curiousities to a bored and sexually confused couple of same sexers.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes the argument that gay parenting is OK because of breakdowns in hetro marriages is ludicrous. Social engineering will never takeaway the primal urge to mate, procreate and bond with the maternals and paternals.

Oh look at that fat person mommy, yes dear because he's fat I'm going to make you fat. That fella just exposed himself mommy, yes dear you can do that too when you grow up.......... fallacious arguments that are just as ridiculous as suggesting a child doesn't benefit (for the better) from mother/father coupling; spurious breakdown analogues aside.

I'm with Rumpole on the marriage thing, it was secondary to my love for my wife, but I'm glad I did marry to give my kids recognition of the bond between my wife and therefore normalcy, solidarity and validity to their existence. That is not to say marriage is the best, but at least it doesn't impress the kids in the family they are tantamount to pets and curiousities to a bored and sexually confused couple of same sexers.

Fine post there Tisme

 

[explod]

A friend I have known 40 years lost his Sister who left two children under 5 at the time. Though gay he assumed the role of Mother. Both chlidren are now married with thier own children

Being gay is not something that happens after birth, it is neurological. As an artist I have met many gay people, compared to the general community the are usually very kind, tolerant and good citzens.

They should be entitled to the same rights as everyone else and allowed to marry if they so choose.

 

[Bill M]

A friend I have known 40 years lost his Sister who left two children under 5 at the time. Though gay he assumed the role of Mother. Both chlidren are now married with thier own children

Being gay is not something that happens after birth, it is neurological. As an artist I have met many gay people, compared to the general community the are usually very kind, tolerant and good citzens.

They should be entitled to the same rights as everyone else and allowed to marry if they so choose.

Fully agree with explod here. During my working life, half of the people I encountered were gay. They were the most decent people I ever came across and should be treated equally just like anybody else in the community.

 

[sydboy007]

I'm with Rumpole on the marriage thing, it was secondary to my love for my wife, but I'm glad I did marry to give my kids recognition of the bond between my wife and therefore normalcy, solidarity and validity to their existence. That is not to say marriage is the best, but at least it doesn't impress the kids in the family they are tantamount to pets and curiousities to a bored and sexually confused couple of same sexers.

Hopefully you're being sarcastic, because I'm neither sexually confused or bored.

I know 3 gay couples with children. I'd be willing to bet that if you saw the kids in a room of children you couldn't pick them out, even though you're arguing they are somehow psychologically damaged.

Are you saying the 1M odd aussie children in single parent families somehow lack a normalcy, solidarity and validity to their existence?

Why do you have such a narrow viewed way of raising children, especially how most western countries do it, which seems rather insular compared to say a couple of generations ago or in poorer countries today.

This whole argument reminds me of the Divergent series of books, with the concept of GP (Genetically Pure) and GD (Genetically Damaged) people and the attitudes and privilege the GPs have towards the so called GDs. Thousands of years for what ever God you believe to have stepped in, or thousands of years for evolution to have decided homosexuality was not in some way beneficial to the species, yet we're still here contributing and trying to get by against the lack of acceptance and baseless arguments of how we're unsuitable for many roles in society.

 

[SirRumpole]

Hopefully you're being sarcastic, because I'm neither sexually confused or bored.

I know 3 gay couples with children. I'd be willing to bet that if you saw the kids in a room of children you couldn't pick them out, even though you're arguing they are somehow psychologically damaged.

Children in a classroom are not of an age to be aware of their situation. Once they grow up and realise that they don't know who one of their biological parents is that the problems start and they start on a search, sometimes fruitless to find them.

I say they are being deprived and disadvantaged by having to undertake that process while the rest of us do not.

 

[Tink]

They are still family, explod. a brother taking on his sisters children because she has passed away.
What has that got to do with Marriage?
A majority of the time its the step parents or new boyfriend/girlfriend that hurts the children, not the original parents.
How many cases have we seen in the news of children being killed in those circumstances.

Problems have arisen in society because of no stability with these children.
Marriage was intended to keep families together to raise their children.

Gay people are accepted and have the same rights, as I said above.
Wanting a word makes no difference in the outcome.
This has nothing to do with how people are treated, as the PC mob keep playing on, it is to do with the word - Marriage.

Much was changed over the years for the betterment of society.

Early Church Fathers advocated against polygamy, abortion, infanticide, child abuse/pedaphiles, homosexuality, transvestism, and incest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_the_Christian_Church_in_civilization

Are the PC mob going to advocate for each one?

 

[Tisme]

Children in a classroom are not of an age to be aware of their situation. Once they grow up and realise that they don't know who one of their biological parents is that the problems start and they start on a search, sometimes fruitless to find them.

I say they are being deprived and disadvantaged by having to undertake that process while the rest of us do not.

I know I posted my first hand experience on this in another forum, but I am still haunted by that little girl who's awareness kicked in at a party for family friends, when she realised her lesbian mum and dad weren't the same as the other kids with a mum and dad. The bewilderment was palpable as a hush came over the adult chatter also engaging in the incidence. That little girl is now in her teens and still plays second fiddle to her maternal mother's trysts and tilting at social windmills..... one of those situations where the child has passed the mother in the maturity stakes and seeded resentment is sprouting.

I couldn't pick a criminal in a crowd, a pedophile in a crowd, even a homosexual in a crowd, so I think I would have a hard time picking the ward of a homosexual couple in a kindy either ... schools are not the place for observing under the bonnet misfiring, there are plenty of other distractions to obscure arrested developments.

 

[Tisme]

They are still family, explod. a brother taking on his sisters children because she has passed away.

Yes one unforeseen tragedy doesn't forgive voluntarily replicating the situation. The question should be if the original parents intended to hand over there kids to a homosexual in the course of time, or hold on to their kids and raise them as if they were there own (which of course they were).

As many of us were raised in extended families, we know that the bond with our maternal/paternal parents is much stronger than our unmitigated love for our grandparents. In many instances the extended family is a result of mum or dad missing in action, but the traditional links remain visibly intact, providing solid foundations for a child.....and yeah there are people who shouldn't breed either.
.