Gay Marriage

[Julia]

Just seeing "Get Up" in the corner of the video was enough to make me quickly exit.

 

[ftw129]

Just seeing "Get Up" in the corner of the video was enough to make me quickly exit.

I don't get it :dunno:

 

[Calliope]

They can now legally marry and live happily ever after... but not on a Senator's pay.



Ms Pratt is an openly gay politician whose partner, Aram Hosie, was a female, but is now legally a male.

 

[SirRumpole]

I don't mind consenting adults doing what they like in private, but when they try to bring up children in an un-natural environment and then try to pretend it's "normal", that's where I draw the line.

 

[sydboy007]

I don't mind consenting adults doing what they like in private, but when they try to bring up children in an un-natural environment and then try to pretend it's "normal", that's where I draw the line.

What is a natural environment to you?

My Grandmother's generation tends to view current lifestyles as pretty unnatural. In her times it was quite natural to have 3 generations living in the same house. Similar for Asian families where it's quite acceptable for married children still to be living with one set of parents - guy at work was telling me about his Indian neighbor (he's also Indian) and how he'd built a 5 BR 6 bathroom house on the premise his sons would continue to live with him even when married and they'd have relatively self contained rooms for privacy.

The model of natural that you seem to be referring to has been around for maybe the last 40 years, possibly less, and seems to be going back to how things were with the relative unaffordability of shelter in the capital cities - children staying home till their 30s or moving back home because the struggle to pay exorbitant rents gets to be too much.

If you can refer me to any peer reviewed studies that show children in "unnatural" families have any developmental issues or are in any way detrimentally affected I'll read it with great interest.

 

[Bill M]

Everyone should be treated equal and no government has the right to dictate who people can or can not marry. People should get over the judgment of others, live and let live. I would rather be around a couple who are gay and happy than a straight couple who are continually at each others throats. Embrace love and respect for all, no matter where it comes from.

 

[eager to learn]

I totally agree " ...... live and let live..... Embrace love and respect for all ..........."

"Hi Guys. I joined this forum in early 2013. I enjoy very much reading all members post . Reading and understanding post is not a problem. However expressing myself clearly in English is a challenge. Therefore I seldom post. I hope you will forgive me for not contributing."

 

[sydboy007]

I totally agree " ...... live and let live..... Embrace love and respect for all ..........."

"Hi Guys. I joined this forum in early 2013. I enjoy very much reading all members post . Reading and understanding post is not a problem. However expressing myself clearly in English is a challenge. Therefore I seldom post. I hope you will forgive me for not contributing."

Welcome to the forum, and I'll say the best way to learn and improve is to practice practice practice. My school teachers would probably still put on my report cards "must watch spelling" but as long as you pass on the ideas perfect spelling and grammar can take a back seat as far as i'm concerned. Writing an academic paper is a whole other deal.

Live and let live, and we can all enjoy the Dolce Vita (sweet life)

 

[Miss Hale]

What is a natural environment to you?

My Grandmother's generation tends to view current lifestyles as pretty unnatural. In her times it was quite natural to have 3 generations living in the same house. Similar for Asian families where it's quite acceptable for married children still to be living with one set of parents - guy at work was telling me about his Indian neighbor (he's also Indian) and how he'd built a 5 BR 6 bathroom house on the premise his sons would continue to live with him even when married and they'd have relatively self contained rooms for privacy.

The model of natural that you seem to be referring to has been around for maybe the last 40 years, possibly less, and seems to be going back to how things were with the relative unaffordability of shelter in the capital cities - children staying home till their 30s or moving back home because the struggle to pay exorbitant rents gets to be too much.

If you can refer me to any peer reviewed studies that show children in "unnatural" families have any developmental issues or are in any way detrimentally affected I'll read it with great interest.

My parents lived with my mum's parents after they were married too, my two eldest brothers were born before they got their own place, it was quite common after the WWII when there was a housing shortage. Cannot even be compared with bringing up children with two 'parents' of the same sex.

 

[Julia]

My parents lived with my mum's parents after they were married too, my two eldest brothers were born before they got their own place, it was quite common after the WWII when there was a housing shortage. Cannot even be compared with bringing up children with two 'parents' of the same sex.

+1. Can't see any connection between multigenerational occupancy of a home and homosexual parenting.

 

[sydboy007]

My parents lived with my mum's parents after they were married too, my two eldest brothers were born before they got their own place, it was quite common after the WWII when there was a housing shortage. Cannot even be compared with bringing up children with two 'parents' of the same sex.

+1. Can't see any connection between multigenerational occupancy of a home and homosexual parenting.

I suppose the point I was making is that the term "un-natural" had been used and I just wanted to show that the idea of a westnerised family where it's just parents and children living together as "natural" is open to challenge.

From a lot of other cultures our narrow and insular family structures would seem "un-natural".

I suppose the family living behind my house were showing the great "natural" family structure where mum and dad were using expletives towards each other and one of the children, while the child was crying loud enough I found it distressing. Similar to the "natural" families living in the housing commission around me that have 14 year olds (definitely under aged) smoking and I'll sometimes see them in the small park next to the train station on a Fri or Sat night smoking and drinking late at night.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonour others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. The Apostle Paul was right, and in many ways homosexual people probably know the truths of these words far stronger than many in "natural" families because they are constantly judged.

I doubt any of you have had to take words like "Abomination of God", "f@#king faggot" or faced physical abuse because you were holding you're partners' hand while walking along the street, or in the case of an old house mate just walking to the train station to go out for your birthday and being bashed to the point where one eye is so swollen shut the doctors fear you might lose sight in the eye.

Ask yourself, how would you feel if everyday you were confronted with the media and people questioning if your love, your relationship is valid, face claims that you would have a detrimental affect on children should you be involved with their raising. Try and imagine a life where you worry about what could happen if you did some public display of affection like a hug or holding hands with your partner. Imagine so many of the little things in life you do with your partner that you probably have no conscious thought about really, yet for a gay person can lead to emotional and or physical abuse, or issues at their workplace, maybe issues at school or other facets of their life.

That's the "natural" world that I as a homosexual has to live within.

 

[bellenuit]

I doubt any of you have had to take words like "Abomination of God", "f@#king faggot" or faced physical abuse because you were holding you're partners' hand while walking along the street, or in the case of an old house mate just walking to the train station to go out for your birthday and being bashed to the point where one eye is so swollen shut the doctors fear you might lose sight in the eye.

Ask yourself, how would you feel if everyday you were confronted with the media and people questioning if your love, your relationship is valid, face claims that you would have a detrimental affect on children should you be involved with their raising. Try and imagine a life where you worry about what could happen if you did some public display of affection like a hug or holding hands with your partner. Imagine so many of the little things in life you do with your partner that you probably have no conscious thought about really, yet for a gay person can lead to emotional and or physical abuse, or issues at their workplace, maybe issues at school or other facets of their life.

That's the "natural" world that I as a homosexual has to live within.

I empathise with you Sydboy. Not exactly on topic particularly in relation to gay parenting, but Jaclyn Glenn addresses gender related issues very well from about 1:20 in on this video.

 

[SirRumpole]

The word "un natural" refers to the fact that two men or two women cannot produce children. It has nothing whatever to do with people living in their parents homes, and your comparison as such was a complete straw man.

 

[sydboy007]

The word "un natural" refers to the fact that two men or two women cannot produce children. It has nothing whatever to do with people living in their parents homes, and your comparison as such was a complete straw man.

people can't regenerate hearts, livers, lungs, corneas, kidneys, yet it seems natural to have a transplant.

What do you believe could be the harm of a gay couple raising a child? How does that compare to the tens of thousands of dysfunctional families in Australia? I've got at least 20 within an easy walk of my house.

I'd put my money on a loving gay family raising happy children any day over your preferred "natural" family that sees no harm is shouting abuse at family members, or allowing under-aged children to smoke and drink and roam the streets at night pretty much as they please.

 

[Miss Hale]

people can't regenerate hearts, livers, lungs, corneas, kidneys, yet it seems natural to have a transplant.

What do you believe could be the harm of a gay couple raising a child? How does that compare to the tens of thousands of dysfunctional families in Australia? I've got at least 20 within an easy walk of my house.

I'd put my money on a loving gay family raising happy children any day over your preferred "natural" family that sees no harm is shouting abuse at family members, or allowing under-aged children to smoke and drink and roam the streets at night pretty much as they please.

It's not about whether a couple shouts abuse at family members, or allows under-aged children to smoke and drink and roam the streets at night and so on. This could easily apply to a heterosexual couple or a gay couple - I hope you are not trying to suggest that the sort of relationship and parenting issues a heterosexual couple can have would not also apply to a gay couple. Every child has a mother and a father and every child deserves the opportunity to be brought up by a male parent and a female parent as nature intended.

 

[SirRumpole]

I'd put my money on a loving gay family raising happy children any day over your preferred "natural" family that sees no harm is shouting abuse at family members, or allowing under-aged children to smoke and drink and roam the streets at night pretty much as they please.

So what makes you think that gay parents are any less subject to being abusive, smoking, drinking, drug taking or anything else that sets a bad example to children ?

The people I've had this discussion with elsewhere always try to paint gay parents as saints in comparison to the 'nasty heterosexuals', but the recent case of two homosexuals who bought a child from a woman in Russia so they could abuse him is one example that the rose coloured glasses view of gay parenting is false.

 

[Julia]

people can't regenerate hearts, livers, lungs, corneas, kidneys, yet it seems natural to have a transplant.

Does it? I don't think it seems natural at all. But I do think it's a wonderful development of science to allow lives to be saved by such means.
I have no idea why you would raise such an analogy. Just like the multigenerational occupancy of a household, it has absolutely nothing to do with homosexual relationships.

Others have already made the valid point of disagreeing with your suggestion of painting homosexual relationships as all being blissfully happy, without dissension, jealousies, addictions or financial issues which are often at the basis of difficulties between couples regardless of their sexual preference.

As far as your being verbally abused via the terminology you describe goes, it's not for me to question that this happens. My own observations are to the contrary, with the current political correctness dictating people must fall over themselves to observe 'equality' to people declaring themselves homosexual. That's fine. I think I'm typical of the majority of the population who couldn't care less what adult human beings do with their bodies in private, as long as they don't involve children or animals.

Unfortunately, as referred to above, we have recently seen a completely hideous example of a homosexual couple acquiring a baby whom they began to abuse when he was just 2 weeks old, such procurement being designed to allow them to prostitute the child all over the world.
I'm sure this is absolutely not typical, but for you to suggest that homosexual relationships somehow escape the net of repugnant behaviour is disingenuous at best.

Frankly, I couldn't give a damn whether homosexual people get married or not. And I don't think the majority of the population do either. Given the high divorce rate I can't see why marriage as an institution should be regarded as so desirable by anyone.

But I am very, very sick of the topic being thrust in my face all the time. Do whatever you want, but just bloody shut up about it. If I see one more celebrity "bravely coming out" and declaring proudly their homosexuality I want to kick the TV. Heterosexual people don't prance about declaring their sexual preference.

Whatever happened to the notion of personal privacy? Somehow our present civilisation seems to have developed a mass addiction to discussing their most personal issues in public. I try to avoid Facebook and Twitter, but it's not entirely possible to do so, and I see people baring their every emotion and physical sensation to the world at large. I truly wonder "who on earth cares"? Have we, as a society, become so addicted to egocentric behaviour that we feel deprived if we are not talking about what once was personal and private to the whole world?

Syd, do what you like. But please don't expect everyone else to necessarily want to know about it.

 

[Knobby22]

Whatever happened to the notion of personal privacy? Somehow our present civilisation seems to have developed a mass addiction to discussing their most personal issues in public. I try to avoid Facebook and Twitter, but it's not entirely possible to do so, and I see people baring their every emotion and physical sensation to the world at large. I truly wonder "who on earth cares"? Have we, as a society, become so addicted to egocentric behaviour that we feel deprived if we are not talking about what once was personal and private to the whole world?

.

So true. I remember how we used to laugh at those US programs where people bared their souls to celebrities.
Maybe its a reflection of upbringing. Everyone has become so out there - and when they realise people don't really care they get depressed.

We could all be accused, at least a little bit, of the same thing on this site.

And a bit off topic, but look at Carr - he is even telling us what he had for dinner in his book.

 

[sydboy007]

So what makes you think that gay parents are any less subject to being abusive, smoking, drinking, drug taking or anything else that sets a bad example to children ?

The people I've had this discussion with elsewhere always try to paint gay parents as saints in comparison to the 'nasty heterosexuals', but the recent case of two homosexuals who bought a child from a woman in Russia so they could abuse him is one example that the rose coloured glasses view of gay parenting is false.

Nothing, except they have to make a conscious decision to have children, which is probably not what happened in a lot of dysfunctional families. Combine that with the fact that at present a gay couple is not able to adopt, thought they could be foster parents which has a fairly stringent screening criteria. If current adoption criteria was broadened to gay couples then I think there's a very high chance that children would be placed with good parents and have a much higher chance of a happy life than ones brought up in a dysfunctional heterosexual family

You say you're worried about the impact on children raised by gay parents, but what are you doing about the children who are raised by parents who are addicted to alcohol or other substances, who physically abuse their children either mentally and or physically? There's nothing to stop these same families having more and more children they neither want nor can adequately provide for, but in your "natural" world that is acceptable, or at least preferable than a stable gay family adopting a child.

I've still not seen you or Miss Hale actually articulate what harm you believe will befall these children. How is being raised by 2 gay parents different from say a single parent raising children?

As for your purchasing of a child to abuse them, I'd say most of us would agree that it's abhorrent, yet how often are the people arrested in paedophile rings taken from a suburban family home? What of the heterosexual people who facilitated the purchase?

 

[SirRumpole]

You say you're worried about the impact on children raised by gay parents, but what are you doing about the children who are raised by parents who are addicted to alcohol or other substances, who physically abuse their children either mentally and or physically? There's nothing to stop these same families having more and more children they neither want nor can adequately provide for, but in your "natural" world that is acceptable, or at least preferable than a stable gay family adopting a child.

If I had my way I would be doing a number of things about anyone (regardless of sexual preference) who indulges in child abuse or child neglect. Unfortunately , a lot of people say more government intervention means a "nanny state" which is such a pejorative that it stops governments interfering in the lives of others even when children are at risk. Child welfare departments are chronically understaffed and unable to keep up with the demand.

As a start I would phase put the baby bonus and other family payments over time. People who can't afford children shouldn't have them. Remove a financial incentive to have children and it's likely that people with more responsibility will be the main producers of children in the long term.

I've still not seen you or Miss Hale actually articulate what harm you believe will befall these children. How is being raised by 2 gay parents different from say a single parent raising children?

I'll put some faith in the evolutionary process over the ages that it produces a system that benefits the species in the long term. There is likely to be a good reason why couples of the same sex cannot have children (and I'm not talking about God), but evolution that works to a plan that makes the species stronger over time.

In individual cases, there is the point about appropriate male/female role models administered with the authority that comes from genetic linkage, not through a test tube, and the child's knowledge that they have biological parents who want them, and are not prepared to give them away or sell them to strangers.

As far as you comparing gay parents to single parents, you are making the common mistake of equating one deficient situation with another and excusing it on that basis. I'm sure the majority of single parents don't want it that way, they would prefer a loving partner who shares the load. So just because some children live in single parent households due to unforeseen and unwanted circumstances, doesn't mean similarly deficient circumstances should be inflicted on children by design.

As for your purchasing of a child to abuse them, I'd say most of us would agree that it's abhorrent, yet how often are the people arrested in paedophile rings taken from a suburban family home? What of the heterosexual people who facilitated the purchase?

Everyone in this shocking case should be prosecuted if possible, but as the child was procured overseas, it's beyond the resources of our government to prosecute them. Surrogacy should be banned in all circumstances, children are not playthings to be bought and sold.