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Freedom of speech and protest

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wayneL said:
IOW, you got nothing bro.

But FYI


explicit
[ ik-splis-it ]SHOW IPA

See synonyms for: explicit / explicitly / explicitness on Thesaurus.com
adjective
fully and clearly expressed or demonstrated; leaving nothing merely implied; unequivocal:
explicit instructions; an explicit act of violence; explicit language.

clearly developed or formulated:
explicit knowledge; explicit belief.
definite and unreserved in expression; outspoken:
He was quite explicit as to what he expected us to do for him.

(Non applicable meaning deleted)
Click to expand...
Maybe you should look up "redundant" as well.
I won't be responding further to you on this as the Articles of Impeachment are water tight from a legal perspective and you instead are indulging in diversions.
 
And Horace, in what universe did I even hint at condoning those actions?

You can't just keep inventing shyt bro.
 
Last edited:
wayneL said:
Not the point at all.

Clearly violence should be disavowed, and I do so in the strongest terms!

What we are talking about is Trump's purported incitement to violence.

Where is it?
Click to expand...

He may be stupid and his followers may be twice as stupid, but he is not so stupid as to actually state openly "kill Pelosi" or "kill Pence". But he uses his "lieutenants" to say the most extreme stuff, and then doesn't condemn them for saying such things and often praises them, indicating to his extreme followers that he therefore must agree with what is being said.

But just like Hitler blamed the Jews for all problems in German society leading to Kristallnacht, Trump deliberately lied and claimed the election was stolen when it wasn't. He told people to march on the Capitol and in fact said he would go with them but didn't (another story). His lawyer Guiliani at that same WH gathering said "Let’s have trial by combat". This after 33 + (I think) court cases over the legality of the vote have been lost by him/Trump. Trump was out there saying state election officials acted fraudulently (when they didn't).

Trump’s statements leading up to and during the storming of the Capitol building, however, did not include explicit calls for a violent attack on America’s democratic institutions. Instead, those laying blame on Trump are pointing in part to rhetoric that agitated his followers with conspiratorial lies and instilled a sense of imminent doom—while relying on them to make the final decision to act. This is a version of the “stochastic terrorism” tactics common to authoritarian leaders around the world.

In recent weeks, Trump heavily promoted the rally that led directly to the assault on the Capitol. The rally was part of the “Stop the Steal” movement, which, fueled by Trump’s own conspiratorial fantasies, explicitly aimed to halt the certification of Joe Biden’s election victory. On Dec. 19, Trump promised a “big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!” Trump promoted the rally again on Dec. 27, Dec. 30, and Jan. 1, in tweets compiled by the New York Times.

www.nytimes.com

Incitement to Riot? What Trump Told Supporters Before Mob Stormed Capitol (Published 2021)

Here is a closer look at what the president said at a rally of his supporters, which is a central focus of the impeachment case being prepared against him.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

Asked specifically if that included Trump, who had urged the crowd to “fight like hell” before the rioting began, Sherwin replied: “We are looking at all actors here, and anyone that had a role, if the evidence fits the element of a crime, they’re going to be charged.”

www.nytimes.com

Incitement to Riot? What Trump Told Supporters Before Mob Stormed Capitol (Published 2021)

Here is a closer look at what the president said at a rally of his supporters, which is a central focus of the impeachment case being prepared against him.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

After the insurrection was ended, Trump said of those involved: "We love you, you're very special."

He later backtracked on that after he saw the reaction from fellow republicans and other leaders.

Wayne, you should have enough nous to be able to sift through the words and understand that words on their own may seem innocuous, but can be be used to deliberately ignite violence when the context and circumstances in which they are said is understood. The number of his WH staff and others who resigned later that day should show you that they understood what Trump meant even though his words may not explicitly have said such things.
 
bellenuit said:
He may be stupid and his followers may be twice as stupid, but he is not so stupid as to actually state openly "kill Pelosi" or "kill Pence". But he uses his "lieutenants" to say the most extreme stuff, and then doesn't condemn them for saying such things and often praises them, indicating to his extreme followers that he therefore must agree with what is being said.

But just like Hitler blamed the Jews for all problems in German society leading to Kristallnacht, Trump deliberately lied and claimed the election was stolen when it wasn't. He told people to march on the Capitol and in fact said he would go with them but didn't (another story). His lawyer Guiliani at that same WH gathering said "Let’s have trial by combat". This after 33 + (I think) court cases over the legality of the vote have been lost by him/Trump. Trump was out there saying state election officials acted fraudulently (when they didn't).

Trump’s statements leading up to and during the storming of the Capitol building, however, did not include explicit calls for a violent attack on America’s democratic institutions. Instead, those laying blame on Trump are pointing in part to rhetoric that agitated his followers with conspiratorial lies and instilled a sense of imminent doom—while relying on them to make the final decision to act. This is a version of the “stochastic terrorism” tactics common to authoritarian leaders around the world.

In recent weeks, Trump heavily promoted the rally that led directly to the assault on the Capitol. The rally was part of the “Stop the Steal” movement, which, fueled by Trump’s own conspiratorial fantasies, explicitly aimed to halt the certification of Joe Biden’s election victory. On Dec. 19, Trump promised a “big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!” Trump promoted the rally again on Dec. 27, Dec. 30, and Jan. 1, in tweets compiled by the New York Times.

www.nytimes.com

Incitement to Riot? What Trump Told Supporters Before Mob Stormed Capitol (Published 2021)

Here is a closer look at what the president said at a rally of his supporters, which is a central focus of the impeachment case being prepared against him.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

Asked specifically if that included Trump, who had urged the crowd to “fight like hell” before the rioting began, Sherwin replied: “We are looking at all actors here, and anyone that had a role, if the evidence fits the element of a crime, they’re going to be charged.”

www.nytimes.com

Incitement to Riot? What Trump Told Supporters Before Mob Stormed Capitol (Published 2021)

Here is a closer look at what the president said at a rally of his supporters, which is a central focus of the impeachment case being prepared against him.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

After the insurrection was ended, Trump said of those involved: "We love you, you're very special."

He later backtracked on that after he saw the reaction from fellow republicans and other leaders.

Wayne, you should have enough nous to be able to sift through the words and understand that words on their own may seem innocuous, but can be be used to deliberately ignite violence when the context and circumstances in which they are said is understood. The number of his WH staff and others who resigned later that day should show you that they understood what Trump meant even though his words may not explicitly have said such things.
Click to expand...
But don't you you see you are constructing a case using a fair few airy fairy assumptions.

Compare to Maxine, Kamala, et al before and during BLM riots.

Why are you ignoring their direct, explicit incitement?

Especially Kamala who will probably be president in two years?

Why the double standard?

Look, if Trump can be found to have actually incited, I'll can him with as much gusto as y'all.

But your mental acrobatics just done but the target beyond doubt.
 
Double Standards

BLM 02.jpeg




.​
 
bellenuit said:
He may be stupid and his followers may be twice as stupid, but he is not so stupid as to actually state openly "kill Pelosi" or "kill Pence". But he uses his "lieutenants" to say the most extreme stuff, and then doesn't condemn them for saying such things and often praises them, indicating to his extreme followers that he therefore must agree with what is being said.

But just like Hitler blamed the Jews for all problems in German society leading to Kristallnacht, Trump deliberately lied and claimed the election was stolen when it wasn't. He told people to march on the Capitol and in fact said he would go with them but didn't (another story). His lawyer Guiliani at that same WH gathering said "Let’s have trial by combat". This after 33 + (I think) court cases over the legality of the vote have been lost by him/Trump. Trump was out there saying state election officials acted fraudulently (when they didn't).

Trump’s statements leading up to and during the storming of the Capitol building, however, did not include explicit calls for a violent attack on America’s democratic institutions. Instead, those laying blame on Trump are pointing in part to rhetoric that agitated his followers with conspiratorial lies and instilled a sense of imminent doom—while relying on them to make the final decision to act. This is a version of the “stochastic terrorism” tactics common to authoritarian leaders around the world.

In recent weeks, Trump heavily promoted the rally that led directly to the assault on the Capitol. The rally was part of the “Stop the Steal” movement, which, fueled by Trump’s own conspiratorial fantasies, explicitly aimed to halt the certification of Joe Biden’s election victory. On Dec. 19, Trump promised a “big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!” Trump promoted the rally again on Dec. 27, Dec. 30, and Jan. 1, in tweets compiled by the New York Times.

www.nytimes.com

Incitement to Riot? What Trump Told Supporters Before Mob Stormed Capitol (Published 2021)

Here is a closer look at what the president said at a rally of his supporters, which is a central focus of the impeachment case being prepared against him.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

Asked specifically if that included Trump, who had urged the crowd to “fight like hell” before the rioting began, Sherwin replied: “We are looking at all actors here, and anyone that had a role, if the evidence fits the element of a crime, they’re going to be charged.”

www.nytimes.com

Incitement to Riot? What Trump Told Supporters Before Mob Stormed Capitol (Published 2021)

Here is a closer look at what the president said at a rally of his supporters, which is a central focus of the impeachment case being prepared against him.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

After the insurrection was ended, Trump said of those involved: "We love you, you're very special."

He later backtracked on that after he saw the reaction from fellow republicans and other leaders.

Wayne, you should have enough nous to be able to sift through the words and understand that words on their own may seem innocuous, but can be be used to deliberately ignite violence when the context and circumstances in which they are said is understood. The number of his WH staff and others who resigned later that day should show you that they understood what Trump meant even though his words may not explicitly have said such things.
Click to expand...

Excellent, succinct summary. :xyxthumbs Probably the most significant point was the effect and consequences of Trumps actions on the remaining WH staff who couldn't stomach the clearly seditious nature of what had happened.

And when Lindsay Graham, Bill Barr, and Mitch McConnell finally decide enough is enough you know this is a very dangerous path. :2twocents
 
SirRumpole said:
Fact check on some political comments.

www.politifact.com

Democrats quotes twisted to look like they endorsed riots

After pro-Trump rioters stormed the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, some have taken to social media to criticize liberals who ha
www.politifact.com www.politifact.com
Click to expand...

Thanks Rumpy. Always worth checking these "alleged incitements". Frankly I have yet to see one that was an honest representation of what was said or meant.
Taking sound bites out of statements made in quite different circumstances and then pasting them up the way they have been . Very Trumpian indeed.
 
Came across an exceptionally good analysis of the "Self Coup" Trump attempted to stage on 6th January .
Fiona joins a lot of dots and teh final picture is damming. Very detailed. Well worth a read IMV .

Yes, It Was a Coup. Here’s Why.
What Trump tried is called a “self-coup,” and he did it in slow motion and in plain sight.

By FIONA HILL
01/11/2021 03:15 PM EST

Fiona Hill served as deputy assistant to the president and senior director for European and Russian affairs on the National Security Council from 2017 to 2019. She is currently a senior fellow in the Center on the United States and Europe at the Brookings Institution.

Since last Wednesday, people have been arguing what to call what happened at the U.S. Capitol — was it a riot? An uprising? An insurrection? I’ve been public in calling it a coup, but others disagree. Some have said it’s not a coup because the U.S. military and other armed groups weren’t involved, and some because Donald Trump didn’t invoke his presidential powers in support of the mob that broke into the Capitol. Others point out that no one has claimed or proved there was a secret plan directed by the president, and that Trump’s efforts to overturn the outcome of the 2020 presidential election could never have succeeded in the first place.

These observations are based on the idea that a coup is a sudden, violent seizure of power involving clandestine plots and military takeovers. By contrast, Trump’s goal was to keep himself in power, and his actions were taken over a period of months and in slow motion.

But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a coup attempt. Trump disguised what he was doing by operating in plain sight, talking openly about his intent. He normalized his actions so people would accept them. I’ve been studying authoritarian regimes for three decades, and I know the signs of a coup when I see them.

Technically, what Trump attempted is what’s known as a “self-coup” and Trump isn’t the first leader to try it. Charles Louis Napoleon Bonaparte (nephew of the first Napoleon) pulled one off in France in December 1851 to stay in power beyond his term. Then he declared himself Emperor, Napoleon III. More recently, Nicolas Maduro perpetrated a self-coup in Venezuela after losing the 2017 elections.

The storming of the Capitol building on January 6 was the culmination of a series of actions and events taken or instigated by Trump so he could retain the presidency that together amount to an attempt at a self-coup. This was not a one-off or brief episode. Trump declared “election fraud” immediately on November 4 even while the votes were still being counted. He sought to recount and rerun the election so that he, not Joe Biden, was the winner. In Turkey, in 2015, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan successfully did the same thing; he had called elections to strengthen his presidency, but his party lost its majority in the Parliament. He challenged the results in the courts, marginalized the opposition and forced what he blatantly called a “re-run election.” He tried again in the Istanbul mayoral election in 2019 but was thwarted.

There’s a standard coup “checklist” analysts use to evaluate coups. We can evaluate Trump’s moves to prevent the peaceful transfer of executive power against it. To successfully usurp or hold power, you need to control the military and paramilitary units, communications, the judiciary, government institutions, and the legislature; and mobilize popular support.

Let’s see how well this applies to what Trump has done.

www.politico.com

Opinion | Yes, It Was a Coup Attempt. Here’s Why.

What Trump tried is called a “self-coup,” and he did it in slow motion and in plain sight.
www.politico.com www.politico.com
 
Interesting stat. Of all the people arrested for the Capital Hill protest so far - number who have Parler accounts = 0
 
'Well may we say God save the Queen because nothing will save the Governor General'.

'Maintain the rage'

Would Whitlam have been banned from social media if it existed in those days ?

Quite possibly , but those words have gone down as a part of our history.

Did Whitlam want to stoke an uprising ?

He certainly wanted demonstrations, I doubt if he wanted a takeover of Parliament, but given the gun situation in the US Trump should have been more restrained.
 
SirRumpole said:
'Well may we say God save the Queen because nothing will save the Governor General'.

'Maintain the rage'

Would Whitlam have been banned from social media if it existed in those days ?

Quite possibly , but those words have gone down as a part of our history.

Did Whitlam want to stoke an uprising ?

He certainly wanted demonstrations, I doubt if he wanted a takeover of Parliament, but given the gun situation in the US Trump should have been more restrained.
Click to expand...
Whitlam never lied about an event or circumstances to foster foment.
On the other hand, in the USA there are explicit laws against rebellion and insurrection that so called big tech will be abundantly aware of.
Given what has transpired, and applicable laws, it would be foolish for big tech to think they were out of reach. To reduce that possibility it was necessary they remove the source of the problem, and that meant cutting Trump's access to their platforms.
Our acting PM and Treasurer might not like this, but they clearly do not understand US law.
 
It is amazing how quick we are to criticise, when in reality we are no paragons of virtue ourselves, our media throws up picture after picture of the capitol hill riots and condemns them.
Yet not one mention of the riots and mob attack on our parliament in 1996, we really are a changing society in Australia, self opinionated with diminishing ability to self appraise. We certainly are losing our Aussie charm IMO.
Maybe we always were a self opinionated, arrogant lot, but just never had the stage to display it, who knows. :xyxthumbs
 
Wasn't it interesting how the thousands of MAGA supporters who crashed through the Capitol looking for Congressmen to hang or shoot took almost no trouble to hide their identities ? In fact of course many of them gave interviews, took selfies and boasted of their achievements.

They believed that in Trumps USA you can literally get away with anything if your The Boss or doing it on behalf of The Boss.

So where did they get that confidence of criminal immunity ? From The Boss of course.:cautious:

..The rioters were also imbued with the culture of impunity of the Trump era. This is a moment when bad behavior goes unpunished. The president has told his supporters that loyalty to his cause trumps fidelity to the law, and he has reinforced that message by handing out pardons to aides who get in trouble for putting him ahead of the law. The crowd he summoned to Capitol Hill on January 6 took that message to heart.

Trump did not invent this culture of impunity. Even before he broke onto the political scene, officeholders from David Vitter to Bob Menendez to Chris Christie were realizing that when caught in a scandal, they didn’t have to resign, and could just brazen it out. But Trump elevated this move from a tactic to a virtue. His 2016 campaign exalted getting away with it, whatever it was: fleecing lenders, buying off politicians, grabbing women by the crotch. He encouraged violence against protesters at rallies, and even spoke of paying legal fees when someone punched a demonstrator. (Given his miserliness, it’s doubtful he followed through. Keeping promises, like following the rules, is for suckers.)

Trump governed the way he campaigned. He systematically undermined the rule of law. He almost certainly obstructed justice in the midst of a probe into the 2016 election, but Special Counsel Robert Mueller shied away from saying so out of procedural concerns. When Trump tried to extort the Ukrainian government into assisting his reelection campaign, he was impeached by the House but—in the acme of his impunity—acquitted by the Senate.

This impunity extended to others. Members of his staff consistently violated the Hatch Act, but sanctions required the president to act, which he did not. More egregiously, he handed out pardons to criminals who not only broke the rules clearly but showed no penitence, such as Sheriff Joe Arpaio and Dinesh D’Souza. He also dangled and sometimes gave out pardons to people who broke the law on his behalf: Michael Flynn, Roger Stone, Paul Manafort. Those who cooperated with prosecutors, such as Michael Cohen, were frozen out and even subjected to apparent Justice Department retaliation.

These favors were returned. Stone became a force behind the “Stop the Steal” movement that culminated on January 6; Flynn called for martial law after the election and spoke at the rally that day. No wonder that as the rioters swarmed toward the Capitol, they concluded that the rules didn’t apply to them. They might have even expected that Trump would pardon them if they got in trouble.

www.theatlantic.com

Why the Rioters Thought They Could Get Away With It

Trump told supporters that loyalty to his cause is more important than fidelity to the law, and they took his message to heart.
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
 
Monopolies - don't you love them?

So good for our societies.


"But today, if you want to download, sign up for, or use Parler, you will be unable to do so. That is because three Silicon Valley monopolies — Amazon, Google and Apple — abruptly united to remove Parler from the internet, exactly at the moment when it became the most-downloaded app in the country.

If one were looking for evidence to demonstrate that these tech behemoths are, in fact, monopolies that engage in anti-competitive behavior in violation of antitrust laws, and will obliterate any attempt to compete with them in the marketplace, it would be difficult to imagine anything more compelling than how they just used their unconstrained power to utterly destroy a rising competitor."

Glenn Greenwald
 

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