Finding the truth vs. "The Rule of Law"

[SirRumpole]

How should all political parties deal with members who take these liberties ?

He's been dismissed. What else can they do ?

Anyway this isn't the topic for this thread. It is about recognising these realities and exploring the host of other legal investigative processes that can establish the truth behind allegations as distinct from attaining a criminal conviction.

Maybe something can be done in terms of making it easier for complainants to take civil action where the standards of proof are lower and the accused's past sexual practises could be examined as well as the victim's.

It could all happen in private and while no-one gets sent to jail if there is a reasonable case then the accused may be required to pay compensation.

It wouldn't work in all cases but it's worth a try.

 

[basilio]

Good idea. The question of what standard of proof is required, who hears the cases, what are the consequences are very difficult to establish.

There are some excellent examples of problem solving Courts which attempt to resolve issues like drug related charges rather than simply throwing them in jail.

Judges and Problem-Solving Courts - Center for Court ...​

www.courtinnovation.org › sites › default › files › Judg...

PDF
legal and ethical concerns raised by problem-solving courts. Another potential ... Problem-solving judging is by no means the standard way of doing business in.

 

[sptrawler]

It is all going to be very, very messy, I suppose if Porter has to stand down, there will be calls for the ex leader of the opposition to follow suit.
So even the worst case scenario, will result in the same numbers in parliament, not that it has anything to do with the issues in question.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

I've been made follow this by a position not of my asking, being able to do little except watch television. More on that later. I hate television.

It appears to me that men and women in this present brouha, Parliament, Media, 4Corners etc. all come from a privileged background whether it be by birth, education, wealth or just luck.

No mention is made of the thousands of working class and indigenous women and men who are yearly exposed to rape or pillage by dearth of their social status. Unemployed, unemployable, unable to afford a home, never will, working 2 or 3 jobs for paltry wages if they have one, living in crime-ridden suburbs, unsafe at night, they or their children drug addled and stood over by criminals, filling up our jails and daily bothered by "support agencies".

I couldn't give a rats what happens to Porter or Shorten.

They now want to turn people who work for politicians into public servants so that they have "protection". What a load of b@llox.

If I had my way I'd bulldoze Canberra in to the ground and every media organisation including the ABC with it.

gg

 

[SirRumpole]

I've been made follow this by a position not of my asking, being able to do little except watch television. More on that later. I hate television.

It appears to me that men and women in this present brouha, Parliament, Media, 4Corners etc. all come from a privileged background whether it be by birth, education, wealth or just luck.

No mention is made of the thousands of working class and indigenous women and men who are yearly exposed to rape or pillage by dearth of their social status. Unemployed, unemployable, unable to afford a home, never will, working 2 or 3 jobs for paltry wages if they have one, living in crime-ridden suburbs, unsafe at night, they or their children drug addled and stood over by criminals, filling up our jails and daily bothered by "support agencies".

I couldn't give a rats what happens to Porter or Shorten.

They now want to turn people who work for politicians into public servants so that they have "protection". What a load of b@llox.

If I had my way I'd bulldoze Canberra in to the ground and every media organisation including the ABC with it.

gg

Drain the swamp eh gg ?

But you are quite right.

People working for low wages in times of high unemployment are ripe for exploitation in all sorts of ways.

Their needs will never be considered or their rights enforced, they are invisible.

A very appropriate comment from you in this thread.

 

[Dona Ferentes]

I've been made follow this by a position not of my asking, being able to do little except watch television. More on that later. I hate television.

It appears to me that men and women in this present brouha, Parliament, Media, 4Corners etc. all come from a privileged background whether it be by birth, education, wealth or just luck.

No mention is made of the thousands of working class and indigenous women and men who are yearly exposed to rape or pillage by dearth of their social status. Unemployed, unemployable, unable to afford a home, never will, working 2 or 3 jobs for paltry wages if they have one, living in crime-ridden suburbs, unsafe at night, they or their children drug addled and stood over by criminals, filling up our jails and daily bothered by "support agencies".

I couldn't give a rats what happens to Porter or Shorten.

They now want to turn people who work for politicians into public servants so that they have "protection". What a load of b@llox.

If I had my way I'd bulldoze Canberra in to the ground and every media organisation including the ABC with it.

gg

ABC is based in Sydney (Ultimo)

 

[basilio]

Drain the swamp eh gg ?

But you are quite right.

People working for low wages in times of high unemployment are ripe for exploitation in all sorts of ways.

Their needs will never be considered or their rights enforced, they are invisible.

A very appropriate comment from you in this thread.

Indeed...

For what it's worth let's remember that the victim of the alleged rape 30 plus years ago was also well entrenched in the "privileged" class. Top private school education. Exceptional academic skills (Dux of her class.)

Left Uni with excellent results and had friends throughout her life who, by and large, were part of this ""privileged" group. I highlight because if the complaint was merely some nobody there would have been no chance she would have had her accusations make a ripple in the political world.

She , like every other person who has been sexually assaulted in private, recognised how difficult it is to bring the issue up at a later stage. She did however keep diaries, notes, memoirs etc. She had spoken to a number of friends and a counsellor. She had put her story together as clearly and honestly as she could. And when she had opened her experience to this wide group of people who have significant presence in the community they believed there was a case to answer. These are the "privileged" people who now want an independent review of the allegations because they challenge the integrity of the highest law maker in the country.

This is the story behind Christian Porter's accuser

Four Corners last year exposed Parliament's toxic workplace culture and questioned the conduct of some of the most senior politicians in the nation. At the time, there was one allegation that couldn't be revealed. This is it.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sptrawler]

Indeed...

For what it's worth let's remember that the victim of the alleged rape 30 plus years ago was also well entrenched in the "privileged" class. Top private school education. Exceptional academic skills (Dux of her class.)

Left Uni with excellent results and had friends throughout her life who, by and large, were part of this ""privileged" group. I highlight because if the complaint was merely some nobody there would have been no chance she would have had her accusations make a ripple in the political world.

She , like every other person who has been sexually assaulted in private, recognised how difficult it is to bring the issue up at a later stage. She did however keep diaries, notes, memoirs etc. She had spoken to a number of friends and a counsellor. She had put her story together as clearly and honestly as she could. And when she had opened her experience to this wide group of people who have significant presence in the community they believed there was a case to answer. These are the "privileged" people who now want an independent review of the allegations because they challenge the integrity of the highest law maker in the country.

This is the story behind Christian Porter's accuser

Four Corners last year exposed Parliament's toxic workplace culture and questioned the conduct of some of the most senior politicians in the nation. At the time, there was one allegation that couldn't be revealed. This is it.

www.abc.net.au

Well as a thesis, what if said high achiever, was sweet talked by extremely talented and upwardly mobile, charming and attractive young buck with promises of marriage and a future together, to give up her flower.
Then after said deed, the prince charming put mobile phone on block, meanwhile fair maiden with underlying mental health issues struggles with said rejection and readjusts history over the next 30 years, to come to terms with unacceptable outcome?
Just wondering, same as yourself, it is all speculation and some people obviously love to run with anything the media feeds them. ?
I would rather wait until the facts come out, before condemning anyone, life has taught me that the most obvious thing is seldom what happened.

 

[SirRumpole]

I would rather wait until the facts come out, before condemning anyone, life has taught me that the most obvious thing is seldom what happened.

So would I, but they never will unless there is a proper inquiry.

 

[basilio]

Well as a thesis, what if said high achiever, was sweet talked by extremely talented and upwardly mobile, charming and attractive young buck with promises of marriage and a future together, to give up her flower.
Then after said deed, the prince charming put mobile phone on block, meanwhile fair maiden with underlying mental health issues struggles with said rejection and readjusts history over the next 30 years, to come to terms with unacceptable outcome?
Just wondering, same as yourself, it is all speculation and some people obviously love to run with anything the media feeds them. ?
I would rather wait until the facts come out, before condemning anyone, life has taught me that the most obvious thing is seldom what happened.

Indeed!! In fact that is the classic defense argument that has been well used for millenniums.

It is always worth floating and if Christian Porter had stepped aside and invited a private investigation into the matter he could have presented that argument with a chance to establish reasonable doubt.

Unfortunately for Christian he has been absolutely vehement that there was never any sexual or emotional relationship with the deceased. That explanation is off the table unless he now recants his powerful public statement.

I think the legal consequences of that decision are now sinking in.

 

[sptrawler]

Indeed!! In fact that is the classic defense argument that has been well used for millenniums.

It is always worth floating and if Christian Porter had stepped aside and invited a private investigation into the matter he could have presented that argument with a chance to establish reasonable doubt.

Unfortunately for Christian he has been absolutely vehement that there was never any sexual or emotional relationship with the deceased. That explanation is off the table unless he now recants his powerful public statement.

I think the legal consequences of that decision are now sinking in.

And at this stage it could be as he said, that is where assumed innocent until proved guilty comes from, but since trail by media started a few years back that norm has been thrown out the window.

We now have a situation where the media is the overlord, who decrees who is right and who is wrong and are a law unto themselves.

 

[basilio]

And at this stage it could be as he said, that is where assumed innocent until proved guilty comes from, but since trail by media started a few years back that norm has been thrown out the window.

We now have a situation where the media is the overlord, who decrees who is right and who is wrong and are a law unto themselves.

SP lets be clear. Christian Porter was well warned of this situation ages ago. His story that no media outlets presented him with the allegations has been forcefully disproved. The stated objective of the letters sent to the various Ministers was a hands on investigation. The corroborative evidence that was attached to those letters was extensive and convince many people there was legitimate grounds for a closer look.

He chose to ride it out. He chose to use the legalistic minimalist outcome from the NSW police to say

1) He had no criminal case to answer. Go away and
2) He barely knew the woman, nothing ever, ever happened. Shame she had a mental illness.

 

[SirRumpole]

Scott Morrison insisted Christine Holgate resign for doing something that did not break the law.

Why is he applying a different standard to his Ministers ?

 

[SirRumpole]

We now have a situation where the media is the overlord, who decrees who is right and who is wrong and are a law unto themselves.

You could say the same about Watergate, but the press were proved right in the end.

 

[basilio]

It could also be the case of searching for the truth vs The Rule of Law.

In an overwhelming number of cases it is formal investigative journalism or private research that uncovers situations that may later lead to criminal prosecutions. Or perhaps other forms of legal inquiry.

 

[sptrawler]

You could say the same about Watergate, but the press were proved right in the end.

I don't have a problem with that, I take issue with the 24/7 coverage these days that start out as investigative journalism, then morph into a trail by media to squeeze every minute of airtime out of an issue.
This in turn ends up with every issue becoming a reality T.V show and every commentators opinion being presented as a statement of fact, to keep the plebs salivating.
It happens on all issues, this isn't a unique example, it happens in the presentation of the grid issues as well, you are more informed than most presenters.
Yet when they spew out the garbage, the next thing you are at the pub and someone is repeating it to you as a statement of fact, when in reality most of it is half correct at best.

 

[SirRumpole]

I take issue with the 24/7 coverage these days that start out as investigative journalism, then morph into a trail by media to squeeze every minute of airtime out of an issue.

I agree there. The BLM protests were an example of that. Massively over-covered by the ABC in particular and it's not even in this country.

Likewise the Trump rallies. the Royal disclosures etc. Irrelevant to us but lapped up by the madia(sic) because they don't have to do much work to analyse them, they just concentrate on the scandals.

 

[sptrawler]

I agree there. The BLM protests were an example of that. Massively over-covered by the ABC in particular and it's not even in this country.

Likewise the Trump rallies. the Royal disclosures etc. Irrelevant to us but lapped up by the madia(sic) because they don't have to do much work to analyse them, they just concentrate on the scandals.

The media is absolutely depressing, they always look for the scandal or take the glass half empty perspective.
At the moment the media could be lifting the public spirits, with some upbeat reporting on the fact the economy is returning from recession faster than ever before, first home buyers are actually getting into houses with State and federal handouts etc.
But no those articles are just one line comments on page 10 or the news report , lets get all the horror and depressing $hit on the front few pages, just in case someone is feeling upbeat they want to stop that lets get everyone suicidal and depressed. ?
It wasn't long ago I was debating with members in the power generation thread, that this whole coal closing down thing has to be handled carefully, I was shouted down called a coal lover and heaps of media reports demanding coal be closed back then.
Well now, as I said, it would be self resolving.
The coal plants are being closed due to the rapid transition to renewables, the media will start to crank up the rhetoric about doom and disaster, rather than investigate and find out that it is actually being managed and maybe put a positive spin on the fact the coal is closing.
It is all about headlines and winding up the mob.

 

[basilio]

Headline says it all. But well worth reading to see what sort of accountability other professional face with regard to thewir behaviour.

Lawyers call for Porter to be subjected to the same standard of accountability as others in the legal profession

The Prime Minister rejects calls for an independent inquiry into historical rape allegation against Attorney-General Christian Porter, but prominent lawyers say there are other codes of conduct that may apply.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Smurf1976]

Headline says it all. But well worth reading to see what sort of accountability other professional face with regard to thewir behaviour.

Regardless of the details and what the ultimate outcome is, the same standards should apply to all.

Being a politician or other high profile person should not place someone above the law or have them treated differently but on the other hand, it should also not subject them to a presumption of guilt which would not apply to an unknown random individual in the same circumstance.

As for the case itself, it would almost certainly be one of those situations where regardless of legal processes and technicalities, a few people other than the accused would in practice know whether he's innocent or guilty. Perhaps not with sufficient evidence either way, but they'd know in practice.

I expect that many will have encountered a situation like that personally. Can't prove it but you know exactly who caused whatever problem in practice.