Finding the truth vs. "The Rule of Law"

[basilio]

Last week the AG Christian Porter denounced accusations of rape against him as completely false. The accusations had been passed to the NSW Police who announced that because the person who had initially contacted them had not made a formal statement before she died there was insufficient admissible evidence to conduct any further inquiry or create any sort of criminal charge.

The case was therefore closed. On this basis the AG and the Prime Minister intend to close the inquiries and Christian Porter made an impassioned plea that opening any other investigations was tantamount to destroying "The Rule of Law".

But is this a legitimate statement? Is a formal Police charge the only means of finding out the truth or fully investigating a situation?

The reality is that we already have and use a multitude of mechanisms to investigate through legal structures, the circumstances and truth around events. Recent Royal Commissions into Child Sex abuse, failures in the banking system, failures in Aged Care facilities just to mention a few are examaples of non police investigations.

In industry Boards will routinely find a legal inquiry as a way of investigation serious allegations against senior management that can't or shouldn't be just given to the police. Same goes for Universities and community organisations. In almost all these cases the intention is to ascertain whether a person is fit and proper to hold their position. They are not necessarily interested in establishing "beyond reasonable doubt criminal convictions" because in the real world of business, education and community goverance a lessor level of certainty is all that is required to know that something stinks and the Board would be liable itself if it didn't take action.

Like many others on this forum I have had responsibilities on Boards and we have had to take investigative actions when allegations of misbehaviour come to our attention. They always require fair processes but in no case do we have the luxury of saying "Leave it to the Police" .

What do people think ? This article examines the question in more depth.

Christian Porter allegations: independent inquiry no threat to rule of law, legal experts say

Prof Ben Saul says it’s ‘par for the course’ in Australia for non-criminal inquiries to look at potential criminal matters

www.theguardian.com

 

[SirRumpole]

I agree with the article.

What Morrison was effectively saying is that he is prepared to accept any standards of behaviour from his Ministers as long as they don't break the law and yet plenty of people have been thrown out of Cabinet over the years for much more minor transgressions (including not declaring the import of a colour tv set) .

Character is important, especially for the highest law officer in the land, who has the power to initiate and terminate prosecutions, has control over Law Reform and the Commission for Law Reform Integrity. They have to have integrity themselves.

An inquiry into this matter is definitely needed, as evidence may be uncovered that the police are unable or unwilling to obtain.

Say that the deceased went to a psychologist and told him/her that she was raped by the accused. That would be pretty powerful evidence, but it's easy to see why the government wouldn't want that sort of thing unearthed.

Smells like a coverup to me.

 

[bellenuit]

Has anyone else come forward corroborating what she said? If not, what can an enquiry unearth if it is a matter of she said he said and she is no longer alive? I think this is one of those cases where it is better to accept that an injustice may have been done instead of potentially making another injustice.

It is now a political football and many of those calling for justice most likely do not care about justice, but simply have political motives.

 

[basilio]

I was asking this question more broadly than just the current questions about the Attorney General.

But the issue remains. Is there a way to make public officials more accountable in their dealings with the community they serve ? The current line of "Send it to the Police" is clearly unrealistic. There have been many calls for IPAC commissions with teeth. Again a legal structure intended to investigate political actions that undermine good governance.

With regard to the AG rape accusations. There is substantial corroborative evidence around the accusations. It may not be sufficient for criminal court of law to find a guilty verdict. But as the article indicated many issues of malpractice in public office require a lesser degree of legal certainty for people to be seen as inappropriate for their position.

With regard to Christian Porter. The ABC ran a 4 Corners program last year that explored his character and behaviour in depth. There was no hint of the current allegation but the issues raised seemed serious enough to question his suitability as AG and, in my view, warranted further independent investigation.

Inside the Canberra Bubble

Four Corners is the home of Australian investigative journalism.

www.abc.net.au

 

[SirRumpole]

But the issue remains. Is there a way to make public officials more accountable in their dealings with the community they serve ?

Vote them out ?

 

[basilio]

Vote them out ?

Absolutely don't agree. Elections are about a multitude of issues. It is almost impossible to focus on issues of behaviour which have gone uninvestigated 12 months ago. That is the critical reason politicians attempt to brazen out calls for inquires and claims of malpractice.

Just deny, deny deny and assume the fuss will die down and you can divert attention with "something else" when the election comes around.

Also the capacity of officials to "get away" with bad behaviour is a powerful reinforcement of continuing it.
---------------------------
With regard to the pressures to have a proper investigation of the Christian Porter allegations.
All the initial pressure has been brought by friends of the deceased who by and large seem to be Liberal Party supporters. Their interest has been to see justice for their friend.

 

[sptrawler]

Vote them out ?

That is the real test as to who believes or disbelieves any politicians integrity and with Porter it will be the media who get to decide, because the accuser is dead.
I don't have a clue whether the AG did what he was accused of, but his integrity has already been judged by many, as was John Jarratt, Geoffrey Rush, Craig McLachlan, George Pell, the Chamberlains, to my observation most of the hype and finger pointing was done well before any court hearing.
This seems to be heading down the same path, just my take on it.
Hopefully there is an investigation, because the constant trail by media is becoming a real issue IMO.

We seem to be moving into a very vague law system, where the onus is becoming proving innocence as opposed to proving guilt, which isn't a problem as long as it isn't you that are the brunt of the accusation.
I heard today that the young lady who is Australian of the year, has called for the State and Federal Government to define what is consent, I personally think that will be self resolving, if I was a young bloke I would be asking for a signed agreement before taking anyone to bed.

 

[sptrawler]

With regard to the pressures to have a proper investigation of the Christian Porter allegations.
All the initial pressure has been brought by friends of the deceased who by and large seem to be Liberal Party supporters. Their interest has been to see justice for their friend.

That is understandable, after their daughter or friend had taken her life, maybe as the incident is said to have happened 30 years ago, they could have done something earlier?
Just a very sad situation that wont have a happy ending IMO, I certainly hope the result gives them peace.
I'm just grateful it isn't my cross to bear.

The only winners out of this sad incident is the media, with a free reality show, to improve their ratings, we really are becoming a sideshow society IMO.

 

[basilio]

There are a couple of new stories that suggest a police based investigation of incidents is not necessarily the only way to establish the facts.
The NSW Police Commissioner has now said that even if the alleged AG rape victim had signed off on a statement the case would still not made it to trial. Just seemed too difficult to obtain a criminal conviction in the circumstances.

Secondly a counseller has now come forward with her statement that the alleged victim saw her on repeated occasions in 2013 and spoke of the incident identifying the AG.

NSW Police Commissioner says historical rape allegation 'probably' wouldn't have made it to court

The NSW Police Commissioner says a historical rape allegation against Attorney-General Christian Porter "probably" would not have made it to court even if the alleged victim was still alive.

www.abc.net.au

'Extremely articulate': Woman told counsellor of alleged Christian Porter rape eight years ago

A sexual assault counsellor has told Four Corners the woman who accused Christian Porter of rape saw her about six times and spoke of the alleged assault.

www.abc.net.au

 

[SirRumpole]

Another 4C exposure of Porter tonight apparently.

It's hard to see him surviving in that position, too many unanswered questions hanging over him.

 

[SirRumpole]

That is understandable, after their daughter or friend had taken her life, maybe as the incident is said to have happened 30 years ago, they could have done something earlier?
Just a very sad situation that wont have a happy ending IMO, I certainly hope the result gives them peace.
I'm just grateful it isn't my cross to bear.

The only winners out of this sad incident is the media, with a free reality show, to improve their ratings, we really are becoming a sideshow society IMO.

If Porter was a backbencher or a cross bencher it would be a sideshow and the media probably wouldn't bother, but Porter has too much power to brush the issue aside.

 

[sptrawler]

If Porter was a backbencher or a cross bencher it would be a sideshow and the media probably wouldn't bother, but Porter has too much power to brush the issue aside.

Porter is done, he is coping heaps more flack than Shorten did, but the media is out for blood and the mob is aroused.
I feel sorry for the parents, I know if this was my daughters life being dragged through the media, I would be asking why didn't she come to me or if she did why I didn't do something earlier.
Now we may have a counsellor coming forward apparently with knowledge of the issue 8 years ago, so if the friends knew, the counsellor knew, the parents knew, why was nothing brought forward? Maybe she would be alive now if someone had said "this needs clearing up".
Having four children of my own, two boys and two girls all around 40 years old, I know which of them could be stretching the truth and which don't, character traits are obvious as people grow.

Just a very sad situation all round, like I said earlier I hope the parents find peace, just very sad no matter what the outcome.
My guess is the next stage will be the police coming forward to report on the credibility of the victim.
All very messy.

 

[SirRumpole]

Porter is done, he is coping heaps more flack than Shorten did, but the media is out for blood and the mob is aroused.
I feel sorry for the parents, I know if this was my daughters life being dragged through the media, I would be asking why didn't she come to me or if she did why I didn't do something earlier.
Now we may have a counsellor coming forward apparently with knowledge of the issue 8 years ago, so if the friends knew, the counsellor knew, the parents knew, why was nothing brought forward? Maybe she would be alive now if someone had said "this needs clearing up".
Having four children of my own, two boys and two girls all around 40 years old, I know which of them could be stretching the truth and which don't, character traits are obvious as people grow.

Just a very sad situation all round, like I said earlier I hope the parents find peace, just very sad no matter what the outcome.
My guess is the next stage will be the police coming forward to report on the credibility of the victim.
All very messy.

It is very sad and messy as you say.

The relatives of the deceased lady say they want the truth to come out, so they seem prepared for all the evidence to come out.

I found it interesting that the police said that there is no "admissable" evidence, ie that could be presented in court. In the absence of the complainant in person, a sworn statement would be required, but she could still have named the person responsible to police which would be in the records of interview kept by police.

If these are turned over to an inquiry then it could add to to the pile of s**t that is hanging over Porter's head.

 

[basilio]

Now we may have a counsellor coming forward apparently with knowledge of the issue 8 years ago, so if the friends knew, the counsellor knew, the parents knew, why was nothing brought forward? Maybe she would be alive now if someone had said "this needs clearing up".

Not the way it works SP. From personal experience I'm aware how challenging it is to have these allegations successfully prosecuted through the legal system. Frankly any counselling to a rape victim is always exceptionally clear about the consequences of making a formal complaint. Disbelief, rigourous recounting of the incidents, exploration of admissible evidence, character and background checks to ensure the complainant has "credibility" in the eyes of a potential jury. Routinely accused of being a liar or a fantasist or mentally ill.

Almost all advice given to rape victims is be very, very thoughtful about taking the legal route.

Which of course is why the real sociopathic rapists have every confidence they can get away with it.

Anyway this isn't the topic for this thread. It is about recognising these realities and exploring the host of other legal investigative processes that can establish the truth behind allegations as distinct from attaining a criminal conviction.

 

[moXJO]

Not the way it works SP. From personal experience I'm aware how challenging it is to have these allegations successfully prosecuted through the legal system. Frankly any counselling to a rape victim is always exceptionally clear about the consequences of making a formal complaint. Disbelief, rigourous recounting of the incidents, exploration of admissible evidence, character and background checks to ensure the complainant has "credibility" in the eyes of a potential jury. Routinely accused of being a liar or a fantasist or mentally ill.

Almost all advice given to rape victims is be very, very thoughtful about taking the legal route.

Which of course is why the real sociopathic rapists have every confidence they can get away with it.

Anyway this isn't the topic for this thread. It is about recognising these realities and exploring the host of other legal investigative processes that can establish the truth behind allegations as distinct from attaining a criminal conviction.

Wait. Why so quick to "Totally clear" bill shorten?

That was police lead investigation. From what I know she is trying to get her case heard again.

You want 'proper investigation' or do you want political point scoring?

I do agree it's difficult to find evidence to convict guys that are guilty. Parliamentary investigation isn't such a bad idea.

 

[basilio]

If Porter was a backbencher or a cross bencher it would be a sideshow and the media probably wouldn't bother, but Porter has too much power to brush the issue aside.

There are a number of relevant points
1) Porter is the AG. The most powerful legal person in Australia. His character and behaviour are exceptionally relevant to his position
2) The Government has a one seat majority. Loss of control in the House would be disastrous
3) The issue might be historical but it has immediate political currency with the Brionay Higgins alleged rape. This was by a young upcoming Liberal high flyer. More critically 3 other people have now come forward with other allegations of assault. How he has managed to continue his upward path needs some questioning.

How should all political parties deal with members who take these liberties ?

 

[basilio]

Parliamentary investigation isn't such a bad idea.

Absolutely not. The point always raised was that investigations should be conducted by impartial legal people. Respected retired judges are usually a safe pair of hands.

 

[moXJO]

Absolutely not. The point always raised was that investigations should be conducted by impartial legal people. Respected retired judges are usually a safe pair of hands.

I have to agree.

 

[basilio]

3) The issue might be historical but it has immediate political currency with the Brionay Higgins alleged rape. This was by a young upcoming Liberal high flyer. More critically 3 other people have now come forward with other allegations of assault. How he has managed to continue his upward path needs some questioning.

IMV this is the grenade that is waiting to shatter the Liberal Party. This incident happened just before the 2019 election. The alleged perp has been shielded and protected by the Liberal Party ever since. He is now out of sight. Who protected him since the incident ??

 

[moXJO]

Knowing what parliament is like, expect both sides to start throwing others into the pit to deflect attention. I've already seen a few names start popping up.