Finding the truth vs. "The Rule of Law"

[IFocus]

Lets have a look at history should we?​

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Trial by media, toxic internet, unnecessary inquiries? That’s Gillard, not Porter​

It seems those defending Christian Porter have forgotten what was done to Julia Gillard over allegations predating her time in politics. There was an inquiry into that. And a whole lot more.

Trial by media, toxic internet, unnecessary inquiries? That's Gillard, not Porter

It seems most people in politics have forgotten what was done to Julia Gillard over allegations predating her time in politics. There was an inquiry into that. And a whole lot more.

www.crikey.com.au

 

[sptrawler]

Regardless of the details and what the ultimate outcome is, the same standards should apply to all.

Being a politician or other high profile person should not place someone above the law or have them treated differently but on the other hand, it should also not subject them to a presumption of guilt which would not apply to an unknown random individual in the same circumstance.

As for the case itself, it would almost certainly be one of those situations where regardless of legal processes and technicalities, a few people other than the accused would in practice know whether he's innocent or guilty. Perhaps not with sufficient evidence either way, but they'd know in practice.

I expect that many will have encountered a situation like that personally. Can't prove it but you know exactly who caused whatever problem in practice.

Very well put smurf, whether the actual incident happened or not, something happened which obviously caused a lot of angst so it obviously deserves investigation.
A simple yes / no may work for a non significant figure, not meaning to demean anyone but funds are limited, however a person in high office who are paid a lot of taxpayers money should be open to investigation IMO.

 

[Smurf1976]

It seems those defending Christian Porter

For me it's not about defending anyone, it's just about applying a consistent process regardless of who it is.

A proper process to investigate what happened should exist and be applied consistently regardless of who's involved.

As per my comments in the real estate thread, our political system is rotten however, no doubt about that.

 

[sptrawler]

One thing I will say, I'm pleased I'm a pleb, because I grew up in some wild out back west places went to some wild parties, but always blew in my jeans. ?

But having said that, if I was now a high profile guy making big bucks, would someone point the finger at me?
I know from experience, I had a girlfriend who was lovely but I met the girl i'm still married to 45 years later, any way long story short she married a great mate ( was a bit of a hand ball, nice girl, nice mate ), we were apprentices together there were three of us apprentices.
Right all three of us apprentices got together about 7 years ago, well the scorned ex turned up at our get together and gave me the spray of my life, I mean why after 46years?
They have kids, I have kids, I've never seen her or him for over 40 years. I guess I'm saying some people can hang on to bad feelings for a long time. ?

 

[basilio]

For me it's not about defending anyone, it's just about applying a consistent process regardless of who it is.

A proper process to investigate what happened should exist and be applied consistently regardless of who's involved.

As per my comments in the real estate thread, our political system is rotten however, no doubt about that.

Neat summary. The concern surrounding the PM's approach to the allegations of rape as only capable of being investigated by The Police are exceptionally well explained in the legal sense in the attached analysis.

The story from the young woman who had been raped in the alley at 15 and why she decided to keep mum outlines the real life choices faced in these situations. And of course it's far more difficult if, in fact, the victim has been friends with the alleged attacker.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Following the allegations of rape against attorney general Christian Porter, which he firmly denies, Scott Morrison has insisted that alleged sexual assault can only be dealt with in criminal law. “I am not the police force,” he said when asked for his response as prime minister. “That is a matter for the police. I am not the commissioner of police.”

Treating an allegation of sexual violence as if it is, and can only ever be, a matter for police and the criminal law is legally incorrect and a dangerous message for the many women and men who have experienced sexual assault. It also kills off a measured, informed public conversation about how else we might respond.

No, prime minister, sexual assault allegations are not only a matter for the police | Karen O’Connell and Liam Elphick

The criminal law in Australia remains, despite attempts to reform it, a terrible tool for dealing with gender-based sexual violence

www.theguardian.com

I was raped as a teenager. Here is why I didn’t consider going to the police | Lucia Osborne-Crowley

The statistics betray the horrible truth of just how severely rape survivors are gaslighted in Australia

www.theguardian.com

 

[basilio]

One thing I will say, I'm pleased I'm a pleb, because I grew up in some wild out back west places went to some wild parties, but always blew in my jeans. ?

But having said that, if I was now a high profile guy making big bucks, would someone point the finger at me?
I know from experience, I had a girlfriend who was lovely but I met the girl i'm still married to 45 years later, any way long story short she married a great mate ( was a bit of a hand ball, nice girl, nice mate ), we were apprentices together there were three of us apprentices.
Right all three of us apprentices got together about 7 years ago, well the scorned ex turned up at our get together and gave me the spray of my life, I mean why after 46years?
They have kids, I have kids, I've never seen her or him for over 40 years. I guess I'm saying some people can hang on to bad feelings for a long time. ?

Agree. Almost certainly everyone has been involved in sticky situations particularly in our youth And with the very best intentions memories of what happened and the effects on individuals will be wildly different. So free slather on these events is not on.

The circumstances surrounding Christian Porter have some major differences which require a deeper inquiry

1) He is is the Attorney General - the most significant legal officer in the country. The position alone requires public and political confidence in the integrity of the office holder.

2) There are many on the record concerns about the recent behaviours of Christian Porter. The 4 Corners investigations had first hand statements from people who have seen and described his actions. IMV it is very questionable for a person in his office to be carousing in the way he did. Malcolm Turnball as PM said exactly that.

3) The rape allegations against him as a teenager go beyond what might be seen as misunderstandings or even just "damn it girl that's it " behaviour. And despite the fact the victim has died she left a detailed amount of corroborative evidence as well as a number of people who she had told of the incident.

Pretending this can't be investigated further? Not on.

 

[IFocus]

For me it's not about defending anyone, it's just about applying a consistent process regardless of who it is.

A proper process to investigate what happened should exist and be applied consistently regardless of who's involved.

As per my comments in the real estate thread, our political system is rotten however, no doubt about that.

Totally agree unfortunately that's not how politics works its never about fairness or the law.

The issue with Porter isn't now (never was given the situation) about law its about whether he is a fit and proper person to hold the office of AG.

Interestingly no female has come out in support of him Julie had an opportunity in an interview and dodged the question.

An investigation all be it a paper over affair may give some relief to the family.

 

[SirRumpole]

Can you imagine Porter trying to do an interview on say, industrial relations ?

The press will badger him about the allegations and the government won't be able to get its message across.

I think he will be a liability for the government, guilty or not especially as a lot of the press seem to be feminists these days.

 

[IFocus]

Can you imagine Porter trying to do an interview on say, industrial relations ?

The press will badger him about the allegations and the government won't be able to get its message across.

I think he will be a liability for the government, guilty or not especially as a lot of the press seem to be feminists these days.

Yes hard to see how he can continue (you could throw Linda Reynolds in as well).

On Insiders last week they grappled with the same question.
No one thought he could continue that was without judgement of his situation just the noise that would be generated drowning out anything the government was doing.

 

[Smurf1976]

The issue with Porter isn't now (never was given the situation) about law its about whether he is a fit and proper person to hold the office of AG.

Realistically, pretty much anyone else with allegations against them which made them unfit to be in their current employment wouldn't be able to continue.

Whether that's wrong or right, if a doctor, engineer or bus driver were alleged to have done something that, if true, would make them unfit to be in that job then one way or another they'd be removed from it.

At best, the employer might put them on alternative duties. At worst, they'll be managed out. Regardless, they won't be permitted to continue.

As an example of that, in SA a train ticket inspector was recently sacked due to unproven allegations of child abuse dating back to the 1990's as an example of that.

Ticket inspector worked with children for two decades despite 'unacceptable risk'

A ticket inspector who worked across Adelaide's public transport network for more than two decades despite posing an "unacceptable risk" to child safety has lost his bid to keep working with children.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sptrawler]

It sounds as though some bloke has the story from both sides, mutual friend of both parties or something similar, so it sounds as though it will come to a head soon.

 

[SirRumpole]

It sounds as though some bloke has the story from both sides, mutual friend of both parties or something similar, so it sounds as though it will come to a head soon.

I'm surprised A Current Affair hasn't waved the chequebook at him by now.

 

[sptrawler]

I'm surprised A Current Affair hasn't waved the chequebook at him by now.

What amazes me is, Porter was a good looking, smart, well connected young bloke, he wouldn't have had any trouble getting girls.
So if he did do it, he really does need to be chuked in the can, because it would show he is a real nasty piece of work.
But as I've said on most of these sort of issues, I would rather sit back and presume innocence until something is proven, before picking up the pitchfork and frothing at the mouth.
The media loves to only print and espouse the information they want heard.

 

[sptrawler]

The media loves to only print and espouse the information they want heard.

A typical example just happened on the radio, radio 6PR talkback was on and they were discussing the way W.A had done very well with the virus, a listener phoned in and said that Australia had also done well because the bushfires had luckily reduced tourist numbers to Australia, Whereas the U.S had nearly 1,000,000 chinese torists before they and Australia shut the borders.
The presenter said that is wrong the U.S didn't close their border, the listener said they did, but the presenter basically said your wrong and moved on.
An article from 1st February 2020.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51338899

A lot of 6PR listeners were given a bum steer, but IMO that is normal.

 

[basilio]

It sounds as though some bloke has the story from both sides, mutual friend of both parties or something similar, so it sounds as though it will come to a head soon.

All looking very sticky for Christian Porter and ScoMo.

1) The mutual friend who knew both Porter and the deceased for 30 years has a lot to say about conversations with Christian in the early 90's regarding the incident. And he is prepared to do it on oath. Remember that Christian said he knew absolutely nothing about the alleged rape until a few days before his public Press Conference.

2) Turns out that the PM's office only sent a summary email of the alleged incidents with none of the 39 pages of presented diaries, documents and other information forwarded to the PM. Now that the police are aware of the original documents they could reopen the investigation. (But in any case there is little likelihood of any criminal case being mounted.)

Friend of Christian Porter's accuser says he has 'clear recollections' of 'relevant discussions' with Porter

The man, who is now managing director of Macquarie Bank, releases statement saying he remembers discussions with Porter as far back as 1992

www.theguardian.com

AFP didn't pass on documents detailing allegation against Christian Porter to NSW police

NSW police say federal police only passed on a ‘summary email’ of the historical rape allegation against the attorney general which he denies

www.theguardian.com

 

[sptrawler]

As usual the truth has a way of coming out, that is why I dont get all excited one way of the other, eventually who is telling porkies will be uncovered.

 

[moXJO]

Never trust a politician.

 

[sptrawler]

All looking very sticky for Christian Porter and ScoMo.

1) The mutual friend who knew both Porter and the deceased for 30 years has a lot to say about conversations with Christian in the early 90's regarding the incident. And he is prepared to do it on oath. Remember that Christian said he knew absolutely nothing about the alleged rape until a few days before his public Press Conference.

2) Turns out that the PM's office only sent a summary email of the alleged incidents with none of the 39 pages of presented diaries, documents and other information forwarded to the PM. Now that the police are aware of the original documents they could reopen the investigation. (But in any case there is little likelihood of any criminal case being mounted.)

Friend of Christian Porter's accuser says he has 'clear recollections' of 'relevant discussions' with Porter

The man, who is now managing director of Macquarie Bank, releases statement saying he remembers discussions with Porter as far back as 1992

www.theguardian.com

AFP didn't pass on documents detailing allegation against Christian Porter to NSW police

NSW police say federal police only passed on a ‘summary email’ of the historical rape allegation against the attorney general which he denies

www.theguardian.com

Oh well it looks as though the truth will come out as we said earlier.

Christian Porter launches defamation action against the ABC

The Attorney-General alleges the online article portrays him as the perpetrator of a “brutal” rape that contributed to a woman taking her own life.

www.smh.com.au

 

[sptrawler]

I'm surprised A Current Affair hasn't waved the chequebook at him by now.

I think the ABC will be getting the cheque book out for him, because IF Porter is proven correct, I think it will be the biggest defamation payout in Australian history. ?

Christian Porter launches defamation action against the ABC

The Attorney-General alleges the online article portrays him as the perpetrator of a “brutal” rape that contributed to a woman taking her own life.

www.smh.com.au

 

[SirRumpole]

I think the ABC will be getting the cheque book out for him, because IF Porter is proven correct, I think it will be the biggest defamation payout in Australian history. ?

Christian Porter launches defamation action against the ABC

The Attorney-General alleges the online article portrays him as the perpetrator of a “brutal” rape that contributed to a woman taking her own life.

www.smh.com.au

That will be interesting. Of course it also enables Porter not to comment on the allegations because they are the subject of court action.

He's taking a risk in my view (not that I'm a lawyer), because if friends of the deceased come forward and say that she told them of the act then it will be a case of who's lying and who is not.

Given Porter's current record of behaviour the jury may well decide not to believe him.