Financial Independence (Home Ownership, Super, Long Retirement) not possible for wage earners: What do we need and how do we get it?

[Value Collector]

VC

living to 90 + in the 1800s was virtually un heard of
Around 60.
Didnt have the temptation of a new BMW or a JetSki
or ability to take an overseas holiday every year.
Even in these time those who thought outside of the square
did better than the working class.
don’t know that long term Compounding was an option
available let alone understood then .

Sure a tough life
In 200 years it’s a very different planet with vastly different
needs.

Yeah, so as I said life is much better now, no need to feel sad for those born today. Even if you live your life spending every cent you ever earn you will live better than all the generations past, even in retirement.

——————

The problem is some people can’t help but compare themselves with others. It doesn’t matter how high you raise the living standards of some people they will always compare their life style to others richer than them and complain.

This leads them to feel envy, and feel ripped off, even though they are getting richer all the time.

working class people today should not compare themselves to rich people today, but compare themselves to working class people of the past.

 

[tech/a]

I guess that applies to Rich people too.
Dreaming shouldn’t be confused with
comparing.

 

[tech/a]

I guess that applies to Rich people too.
Dreaming shouldn’t be confused with
comparing.

 

[Value Collector]

I guess that applies to Rich people too.
Dreaming shouldn’t be confused with
comparing.

A wise man once said That of all the deadly sins Envy was the worst, because it’s the only one you will never have any fun at.

Ideally, you are best just competing with yourself, do the things that make you happy, and take actions that will help you reach that happiness in the future. Its not all money either, money only helps build happiness if its assisting you to level up on Maslows hierarchy of needs.

 

[StockyGuy]

Ideally, you are best just competing with yourself

I don't really see how that cliche holds water for a neurotypical person (in the world of the mind there's exceptions as there's plenty of mental disorder about). Success is relative (to other living humans!). One can't be rich, good-looking, smart, tall, knowledgeable, skilled, strong, fast etc unless some people are the opposite.

Sometimes I wonder if the elites would hold off / halt the much-anticipated AI singularity, where basically no one had to work anymore and everyone sits in special pods with sublimely beautiful / handsome robot partners and goes on insane gaming quests (and gets generous UBI payments for life), just in order to continue to lord their control and wealth over the masses.

 

[Value Collector]

I don't really see how that cliche holds water for a neurotypical person (in the world of the mind there's exceptions as there's plenty of mental disorder about). Success is relative (to other living humans!). One can't be rich, good-looking, smart, tall, knowledgeable, skilled, strong, fast etc unless some people are the opposite.

Sometimes I wonder if the elites would hold off / halt the much-anticipated AI singularity, where basically no one had to work anymore and everyone sits in special pods with sublimely beautiful / handsome robot partners and goes on insane gaming quests (and gets generous UBI payments for life), just in order to continue to lord their control and wealth over the masses.

If you can only be happy when you are richer, better looking, smarter, etc etc than other people, you will never achieve lasting happiness because you will always be able to find someone better than you.

So measuring your self against others is not a good path to happiness, but if you seek happiness by measuring yourself against past versions of yourself, you can achieve constant success, because you can always beat yourself.

having an inner scorecard about what matters to you, is also good because it stops you buying into all sorts of ridiculous “keeping up with the jones‘s“ behaviour that leads you away from true happiness and inner peace.

 

[StockyGuy]

If you can only be happy when you are richer, better looking, smarter, etc etc than other people, you will never achieve lasting happiness because you will always be able to find someone better than you.

So measuring your self against others is not a good path to happiness, but if you seek happiness by measuring yourself against past versions of yourself, you can achieve constant success, because you can always beat yourself.

having an inner scorecard about what matters to you, is also good because it stops you buying into all sorts of ridiculous “keeping up with the jones‘s“ behaviour that leads you away from true happiness and inner peace.

Naturally the reality is rather more complicated. Being the VERY richest, the very tallest, even the very best looking would not be ideal. I was just getting at the general silliness of that idea of competing with yourself - reminds me of that "I like me", "the Secret", positive affirmations type of self-help nonsense. Perhaps it makes a certain sense as a kind of ongoing thought experiment for someone who is already an outlier or high achiever, compared to others, to focus on themselves - but then that's not useful for the great mass of humanity.

 

[againsthegrain]

Naturally the reality is rather more complicated. Being the VERY richest, the very tallest, even the very best looking would not be ideal. I was just getting at the general silliness of that idea of competing with yourself - reminds me of that "I like me", "the Secret", positive affirmations type of self-help nonsense. Perhaps it makes a certain sense as a kind of ongoing thought experiment for someone who is already an outlier or high achiever, compared to others, to focus on themselves - but then that's not useful for the great mass of humanity.

This is why alot of athletes and professional sportsman go into bad depression after they grow past their peak.

You can't keep improving yourself into infinity there is a point you get to and you are chasing your own tail and fall into a obsession and depression spending all your energy and time trying to attain the unattainable

 

[farmerge]

This is why alot of athletes and professional sportsman go into bad depression after they grow past their peak.

You can't keep improving yourself into infinity there is a point you get to and you are chasing your own tail and fall into a obsession and depression spending all your energy and time trying to attain the unattainable

and that tail being chased gets shorter and shorter as we age, sadly.

 

[qldfrog]

This is why alot of athletes and professional sportsman go into bad depression after they grow past their peak.

You can't keep improving yourself into infinity there is a point you get to and you are chasing your own tail and fall into a obsession and depression spending all your energy and time trying to attain the unattainable

I was going to add the age factor as @farmerge just did
I reached my physical top in mid 40s but now body is going down so brain has to help: experience, use of tools and even so, I am sure I am not as sharp now as I was 10y ago..it is a travel.
I share @tech/a view.
It is valid regardless of location or time, @VC position is attached to a place and time, there is no way a payg worker saving in the share market would have done as well as he did in all country or time.
The Japanese share index just went this month over its previous 30y top...poor Japanese savers. What a compounding miracle there
I would not dare comparing my path to @tech/a but maximise revenue per hour, understand own limited asset : one brain/body and 24h a day only
And take opportunities ...
Move if you need to..place..country
I can not say I have been very successful vs opportunities taken, but I tried multiple times, was at least matching a payg job and could have been very successful with a bit more luck: Covid or Australian gov policies differents.
That's part of the roll of dices
I gave up now as I consider life is finite and work for money, be it employed or own business , is trading life vs $ ...so each one balance their own values
But yes from time to time, the giving it a go for a new idea is very teasing.
One more very important and so far not discussed part:
Get good company: obviously partner (wife), but also business partners and general company/friends.
I lacked that being an immigrant and cutting lose the university friendships.

 

[Value Collector]

Naturally the reality is rather more complicated. Being the VERY richest, the very tallest, even the very best looking would not be ideal. I was just getting at the general silliness of that idea of competing with yourself - reminds me of that "I like me", "the Secret", positive affirmations type of self-help nonsense. Perhaps it makes a certain sense as a kind of ongoing thought experiment for someone who is already an outlier or high achiever, compared to others, to focus on themselves - but then that's not useful for the great mass of humanity.

I don’t think it’s silly at all.

I use It my life all the time, I don’t measure myself against others, when it comes to my finances I track where I am now vs where I was last year, 5 years ago, 10 years ago etc

what’s important to me is that I am personally getting better.

I know that is not the normal human condition though, but it’s definitely the better way to live.

 

[Value Collector]

This is why alot of athletes and professional sportsman go into bad depression after they grow past their peak.

You can't keep improving yourself into infinity there is a point you get to and you are chasing your own tail and fall into a obsession and depression spending all your energy and time trying to attain the unattainable

that’s where you are wrong, that athlete can switch their focus, a footballer might have to retire at 35, they can start playing golf, and the game of self improvement can start all over again.

See that’s my point, if they chain their whole identity to beating others sure they will be depressed that they are no longer an A grade footballer and are a bottom of the rung golfer now.

But if they focus on just getting better at their own game, they can be happy, it also allows you to celebrate other people’s wins.

————————

One good way to train yourself to do this is to not only celebrate all your own little victories, but genuinely examine your feelings when you see other people winning. If you can be genuinely happy for other people, you free yourself to be happy.

Envy is a terrible emotion, train yourself to Avoid feelings of Envy.

 

[Value Collector]

I was going to add the age factor as @farmerge just did
I reached my physical top in mid 40s but now body is going down so brain has to help: experience, use of tools and even so, I am sure I am not as sharp now as I was 10y ago..it is a travel.
I share @tech/a view.
It is valid regardless of location or time, @VC position is attached to a place and time, there is no way a payg worker saving in the share market would have done as well as he did in all country or time.
The Japanese share index just went this month over its previous 30y top...poor Japanese savers. What a compounding miracle there
I would not dare comparing my path to @tech/a but maximise revenue per hour, understand own limited asset : one brain/body and 24h a day only
And take opportunities ...
Move if you need to..place..country
I can not say I have been very successful vs opportunities taken, but I tried multiple times, was at least matching a payg job and could have been very successful with a bit more luck: Covid or Australian gov policies differents.
That's part of the roll of dices
I gave up now as I consider life is finite and work for money, be it employed or own business , is trading life vs $ ...so each one balance their own values
But yes from time to time, the giving it a go for a new idea is very teasing.
One more very important and so far not discussed part:
Get good company: obviously partner (wife), but also business partners and general company/friends.
I lacked that being an immigrant and cutting lose the university friendships.

A Japanese saver that just kept saving into the share market would have had good returns, due to the dividends paid.

compounding doesn’t require share prices to go to the moon, share prices can be relatively stable and the fact that the stream of dividends is used to regularly purchase more share means your portfolio is growing and producing more dividends each year.

Also, it’s not like some one would have just put all their money into the stock market at the peak and then never invested again. Even if they began their savings journey at the peak 30 years ago, they would have been purchasing shares from then until now if they followed my plan, so would have acquired many shares at the lows, and been reinvesting divvies the whole time.

————————

I created my portfolio using a modest wage, hell it was seeded from a paper round where I earned $14 a week. That first $1250 I put into CBA at 14 is worth $65,000 now.

 

[divs4ever]

compounding doesn’t require share prices to go to the moon, share prices can be relatively stable and the fact that the stream of dividends is used to regularly purchase more share means your portfolio is growing and producing more dividends each year.

true , it doesn't always work as planned , some companies suspend the DRP when share price is considered 'cheap '

but certainty a path to investigate early on in your investing adventure ( it won't suit everybody )

( very helpful in companies , that demerger sections like WOW and WES )

 

[Value Collector]

true , it doesn't always work as planned , some companies suspend the DRP when share price is considered 'cheap '

but certainty a path to investigate early on in your investing adventure ( it won't suit everybody )

( very helpful in companies , that demerger sections like WOW and WES )

I was talking more about being invested in an index covering the whole market, and reinvesting dividends back into that index.

Also, Japanese people aren’t restricted to investing just in the Japanese market, they could easily invest in a world index.

 

[divs4ever]

Where Do The World's Wealthiest People Live?​

Where Do The World's Wealthiest People Live? | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

must be a lot of debt in Australia , almost any modest ( east coast ) capital city home is worth an easy $500,000 ( unless they are converting to US dollars for the comparison )

 

[Smurf1976]

that’s where you are wrong, that athlete can switch their focus, a footballer might have to retire at 35, they can start playing golf, and the game of self improvement can start all over again.

Whilst that's true, they're very unlikely to attain professional status in golf. Their level of success as such has most likely peaked with the football.

They can continue to grow but only in the context that the previous heights they reached have now been cast aside. Their continued growth comes after starting afresh from a much lower base.

 

[Value Collector]

They can continue to grow but only in the context that the previous heights they reached have now been cast aside. Their continued growth comes after starting afresh from a much lower base.

Which can Be very fun.

Also, your prior achievements don’t just disappear, they accumulate.

i guess it all comes down to starting with the right attitude at the beginning, if you start with the mindset that you will only be happy if you are worlds best football player, you have kind off set yourself up for failure, you have to have the right inner scorecard.

 

[Value Collector]

Where Do The World's Wealthiest People Live?​

Where Do The World's Wealthiest People Live? | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

must be a lot of debt in Australia , almost any modest ( east coast ) capital city home is worth an easy $500,000 ( unless they are converting to US dollars for the comparison )

yes I think that’s in US dollars, but also A lot of those homes you mention (and general household wealth) are split between a couple though.

So even a home that’s worth $1 Million debt free, is only going to add $500k to the Net worth of Dad and $500k to Net worth of Mum.

So the family might have $1 Million dollars of net worth, but not contain any “Millionaires”

 

[qldfrog]

L

yes I think that’s in US dollars, but also A lot of those homes you mention (and general household wealth) are split between a couple though.

So even a home that’s worth $1 Million debt free, is only going to add $500k to the Net worth of Dad and $500k to Net worth of Mum.

So the family might have $1 Million dollars of net worth, but not contain any “Millionaires”

Similarly, being a millionaire in china vs a millionaire in Switzerland or Australia is very different when everything is a tenth of the cost on daily expenses ...but yes a gold bar, or an overseas holidays cost the same.
It is a hard case..even harder with inflation
A millionaire in Australia does not entitle you to much..whereas in fidji or Indonesia/Africa you are rolling in it...