Electricity: price and reliability of supply

[Value Collector]

Same land area, 10x the customers, not a valid comparison.

Why, it has a less dense population than some others on the list.

and some states in the USA still have cheap electricity even though the states are low density.

For example Nebraska has half the population of Sydney, but electricity is cheaper.

(not saying density isn't an issue, but there are low density areas that have lower prices than us.

 

[Smurf1976]

There's no inherent problem with ownership being either public or private.

What's making it expensive is an inefficient market structure and the ideologically-driven forcing of some very unnatural outcomes.

The latest idea is multiple companies competing for metering. Let's just say I haven't heard anyone even pretend that's going to save consumers money - hell no it isn't. So there's another cost that consumers will be paying. And that's without mentioning that consumers are being stuffed around by these companies who can't get the work done anyway - that's a direct cost to the consumer when it's preventing them from installing solar or changing tariff.

The biggest mistake anyone can make in trying to work out what the "problem" is would be to start with an assumption that the aim is to minimise costs to consumers. That was the objective 25+ years ago but it isn't today.

So far as renewables are concerned, it's a huge wasted opportunity in my view. We've spent the money but on the wrong things - now we're reliant on a fleet of aging power stations and are paying huge prices.

 

[Logique]

Australia is going over an energy cliff. That's fine for Malcolm and The Loyal Deputy, they can pay their household bills from their indexed parliamentary pensions. As for Josh, of dear, the poor love..

Coal-fired or nuclear-powered generation plants should be underway .. as of yesterday.

Elon Musk's battery in SA = 1% of the state's capacity.

 

[Logique]

'The biggest mistake anyone can make in trying to work out what the "problem" is would be to start with an assumption that the aim is to minimise costs to consumers. That was the objective 25+ years ago but it isn't today.' : Smurf

You will excuse me if I respectfully disagree with this statement Smurf!

 

[SirRumpole]

'The biggest mistake anyone can make in trying to work out what the "problem" is would be to start with an assumption that the aim is to minimise costs to consumers. That was the objective 25+ years ago but it isn't today.' : Smurf

You will excuse me if I respectfully disagree with this statement Smurf!

Smurf is quite right . The objective today is to let private enterprise make heaps of dough at the expense of consumers, in return for political donations or jobs on boards.

Totally corrupt.

 

[explod]

Smurf is spot on, most of you are living in the past.

A number of countries are nearly 100% solar and wind. Very many near 50% England is one and they do not have the sun we have.

A friend at Bendigo is attached to the grid only to supply power from his solar panels. Till now was getting $7000 a year back (i believe govnuts are reducing this rebate %) . He runs his house on a separate set of panels. And he does not have windpower. It will not take long for others to follow.

 

[sptrawler]

A friend at Bendigo is attached to the grid only to supply power from his solar panels. Till now was getting $7000 a year back (i believe govnuts are reducing this rebate %) . He runs his house on a separate set of panels. And he does not have windpower. It will not take long for others to follow.

I don't know how it works in Victoria, but in W.A your friend wouldn't have been able to do it.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-...ariffs-force-solar-users-to-batteries/7957386

 

[sptrawler]

A number of countries are nearly 100% solar and wind. Very many near 50% England is one and they do not have the sun we have.

A bit misleading plod, which countries are 100% solar and wind?

Albania, Iceland, and Paraguay obtain essentially all of their electricity from renewable sources (Albania and Paraguay 100% from hydroelectricity, Iceland 72% hydro and 28% geothermal). Norway obtains nearly all of its electricity from renewable sources (97 percent from hydropower).

 

[Smurf1976]

I should clarify my comment by saying that what I mean is that the focus of politics, government as such and the industry itself is not directed at lowering prices.

Politics and government is primarily focused on creating markets for the sake of it. In some cases it makes sense, in others it just creates an illusion of competition and adds costs but governments are ideologically committed to the concept and are pursuing it no matter what.

Just about every company involved, both privately owned and those owned by governments, is all too aware of the embedded inefficiencies but couldn’t change it even if they wanted to since doing so would be strongly at odds with government policy and to some extent the law.

The companies aren’t making as much as you probably think. Some profits certainly but there are huge costs embedded which are soaking up the money.

So my point is that it’s all driven by various ideologies, price minimisation not being one of them.

 

[sptrawler]

When the State Governments ran the grid as a monopoly and as an essential service , they decided the price on a social basis, they cross subsidised many facets of the business.
Now it is priced on a business model, which doesn't have much sympathy for the social outcome.
Now shareholders and profits, are much further up the food chain, than the users.

 

[luutzu]

Smurf is quite right . The objective today is to let private enterprise make heaps of dough at the expense of consumers, in return for political donations or jobs on boards.

Totally corrupt.

It's only corrupt if we believe that politicians work for the plebs. Since they don't, they're only doing their job.

Guess who made the likes of Kerry Packer and Murdoch their billions? Good policies that flogs off state assets for next to nothing. That's one. Two is taxpayer funded business ventures where losses are passed to the plebs but profits goes to the job creators.

 

[Tisme]

Smurf is spot on, most of you are living in the past.

A number of countries are nearly 100% solar and wind. Very many near 50% England is one and they do not have the sun we have.

A friend at Bendigo is attached to the grid only to supply power from his solar panels. Till now was getting $7000 a year back (i believe govnuts are reducing this rebate %) . He runs his house on a separate set of panels. And he does not have windpower. It will not take long for others to follow.

Luckily I'm on the state guaranteed rebate system so that is the way I'm heading, except I will keep a feed in connect to the grid. Being on the water I get fairly continuous winds too, so I'm building a DC wind generator with inverter as well.

 

[explod]

I don't know how it works in Victoria, but in W.A your friend wouldn't have been able to do it.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-...ariffs-force-solar-users-to-batteries/7957386

His two set ups are independent of each other. Have mentioned here before of a family at Little River, 10 acre block near Geelong went off the grid about six years ago and yes had to go through a considerable court battle. Rarely uses his diesel back up apparently.

My point is that current costs have a people talking about it. Like horse to car, its going to happen.

 

[explod]

A bit misleading plod, which countries are 100% solar and wind?

Albania, Iceland, and Paraguay obtain essentially all of their electricity from renewable sources (Albania and Paraguay 100% from hydroelectricity, Iceland 72% hydro and 28% geothermal). Norway obtains nearly all of its electricity from renewable sources (97 percent from hydropower).

Yes, you'd be more accurate but getting closer all the time.

 

[Smurf1976]

Right now there are diesel generators (diesel engines that is) running flat out in SA supplying the grid. Specifically those at Angaston and Lonsdale / Port Stanvac.

Meanwhile there's significant spare capacity at Torrens Island power station and also at Hallett (both of which are gas-fired). There's also spare gas and a bit of hydro generation in Vic and spare capacity on the lines between Vic and SA.

That makes no sense whatsoever if the aim is to minimise costs, minimise emissions or simply use pure commonsense but it makes absolute sense if the aim is to push prices up and make money.

So no, the market as it stands does not produce an efficient outcome. Makes money though.

 

[sptrawler]

Smurph, it looks as though the manure has hit the fan in Victoria, i don't think people realise it is going to get progressively worse.

http://www.theage.com.au/environmen...-about-to-get-very-muggy-20180127-h0pbxn.html

 

[Tisme]

"110 m long 5.5 m high 6.5 m wide. Approx 650 tonne."


"1 generator. 6 trucks and a shitload of awesome

. Best spot to watch it coming up mattingley hill, all the trucks just going full noise shuffling down gears as they slowed down to keep all 650T hauling up the hill."

 

[Smurf1976]

That’s the alternator from unit 1 at Loy Yang A on it’s way to be repaired following a major incident last year.

There’s a temporary spare they got from wherever in place of it at the moment.

 

[SirRumpole]

That’s the alternator from unit 1 at Loy Yang A on it’s way to be repaired following a major incident last year.

There’s a temporary spare they got from wherever in place of it at the moment.

Interesting that they can't repair it on site.

 

[Smurf1976]

Interesting that they can't repair it on site.

It comes down to what individual companies do (Loy Yang A is owned by AGL). In this case they've sent it to Germany. I can only assume that means AGL don't have the capabilities themselves (noting that this is a major failure not just routine maintenance).

In the past such repairs have been done in Australia indeed a similar job was done circa year 2000 just a short walk away at Loy Yang B. That plant is separately owned and the work was done with the assistance of a contractor (Hitachi from memory).

For the various owners of generation it varies considerably in terms of what their capabilities are. Ranges from having heavy engineering / manufacturing capability "in house" through to total reliance on contractors for everything beyond basic day to day operations.

How willing they are to work with rival generating companies can also be a factor. Eg company A might well have the capability to do something but will they make that available to rival generating company X? And would X be willing to engage a rival to do the work anyway? Some will, some won't.

Photo: Wilmot power station (Tas) partially dismantled for maintenance. This is a vertical axis machine - so the turbine and water is down below the alternator that's in the photo with the shaft being vertical.