Electric cars?

[Jack Aubrey]

It will be interesting to see how the electric car field develops, and whether the Chinese companies can get a foot hold in Europe and the U.S.
One thing that may hold them back is the lack of badge value, but as has been seen with tools, people are buying tools at a price point these days this has driven down the cost of established tools like De Walt, Makita etc.
People seem to be a lot more price driven these days, using the extra money for dinning out, holidays etc. As opposed to years ago where tools, cars and other consumables were bought mainly on brand.
It hasn't been driven by income, as consumables in reality have dropped in relative price to wages, I think it is mainly due to a continuous improvement in the Chinese product.
It will be an interesting decade coming up IMO.

While a different market, I have just bought an electric bike ("e-bike") for my wife. After researching and shopping around, we went for a Chinese bike over the (much more stylish and hip) european models. While price and build-quality were big considerations, it was the after-sales service that made the difference. The manufacturer had a long-standing relationship with our (local) retailer and supplied spares, upgrades and manuals. These simply weren't available for the European models (although I could buy a "service contract" from the retailer, for another $300 on top of their already much higher price). The Chinese e-bikes are very utilitarian and are clearly designed for commuting rather than for showing off or for speed. I guess that is the nature of the Chinese market.

 

[Junior]

Just before Christmas I heard a female Liberal politician argue with the conservative Macquarie Radio host of a late night show that EV was not the future for cars for at least another 20 years and listened as the listeners rang in to support her (the ignorance is astounding). She knew her base.

It's the same story with renewables. It doesn't matter which Government is in power here, there are unstoppable forces which mean EVs and Renewables WILL take over. It will come down to economics and the desire for big business to appear as though they are doing the right thing by the environment.

Renewables will be cheaper and more palatable to the general public going forward, so that's where big business and tech $$ is flowing and will continue to flow. And in this country with our abundance of sun, wind geothermal and other renewable resources, why the hell would we fight against the global trend and continue to be obsessed with coal. Coal will be around for a little while longer, but the big picture is that coal is DEAD.

Same with EVs. In a couple of years, when you go to buy a new car, a simple calculator will compare total cost of Petrol-powered with EV, and at some point EV will work out to be cheaper. Not to mention all the other potential benefits (lower maintenance, less need to re-fuel at a station, superior performance & handling etc. etc.). Once we cross that threshold Government will have no choice but to support the transition. It shouldn't be a political issue. It's just technological advancement, and progress. Some of us can see the obvious and some will fight it right up to the end.

 

[sptrawler]

The major difference IMO, between the ice and ev car , is the simplicity.
It is easier to build, easier to maintain, less complex and a lot fewer parts.
So in reality it beats the ice vehicle hands down, but due to infrastructure and supply limitations, it will take some time to take over from from ice vehicles.
It is a bit like coal, it will go, but it will go faster in Australia.
That is because we have a small population, therefore small electrical load and we have a perfect climate and space for renewables.
Not all Countries are so fortunate.

 

[qldfrog]

We are actually one of the few places on earth where it is actually relatively easy to put solar on your roof and have enough to power your own transport
I am really looking forward at a solution where the car battery itself might power your tv in the evening, and be recharged during the day with your own panels.the nisan leaf had such a system demonstrated in an article but the cost was horrendous.
Tesla could should do that too in conjunction with their battery system

 

[Boggo]

Solar in Australia is amazing and something that everyone should be using as much as possible imo.

When I'm up North etc I run a solar blanket on my camper trailer for battery and fridge and another on my 4wd for second battery and fridge. They keep everything charged up to the max.

Below is a pic of my rooftop solar system as of about 10 mins ago, best investment I have made I believe.
4.21kw being fed back into the grid.

Solar cars... jury is well and truly out on this one, both for the Nissan and the Electric Jesus vehicles.

 

[sptrawler]

We are actually one of the few places on earth where it is actually relatively easy to put solar on your roof and have enough to power your own transport
I am really looking forward at a solution where the car battery itself might power your tv in the evening, and be recharged during the day with your own panels.the nisan leaf had such a system demonstrated in an article but the cost was horrendous.
Tesla could should do that too in conjunction with their battery system

I think I read the Leaf is going to have the 2way battery system by 2021, which will put pressure on the other manufacturers to install the technology also.

 

[sptrawler]

Solar in Australia is amazing and something that everyone should be using as much as possible imo.

When I'm up North etc I run a solar blanket on my camper trailer for battery and fridge and another on my 4wd for second battery and fridge. They keep everything charged up to the max.

Below is a pic of my rooftop solar system as of about 10 mins ago, best investment I have made I believe.
4.21kw being fed back into the grid.

Solar cars... jury is well and truly out on this one, both for the Nissan and the Electric Jesus vehicles.

Hi Boggo, you are spot on rooftop solar is a no brainer, I've had it on for 11 years, best thing since sliced bread IMO.
Especially with all the rebates, in W.A 6.6KW system for $2,950 installed, you can't go wrong.

 

[sptrawler]

This is the car for me, if they can get reasonable hydrogen infrastructure installed and deliver hydrogen at a reasonable price to the pump.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/mirai...heage&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-2

 

[Smurf1976]

As opposed to years ago where tools, cars and other consumables were bought mainly on brand.

I think what's changed is that if you're spending a month's wages on something then you want to be sure it's a decent one that you're buying.

If the same item is now no more than day's pay then may as well take a chance on the cheap one. It's not a disaster if it fails.

 

[sptrawler]

I think what's changed is that if you're spending a month's wages on something then you want to be sure it's a decent one that you're buying.

If the same item is now no more than day's pay then may as well take a chance on the cheap one. It's not a disaster if it fails.

That's exactly what has happened, the perfect example is cordless gear, tradies always used Makita because it lasted well.
Now a lot are changing over to things like Ryobi for 1/3 of the price, this has caused companies like DeWalt, Makita etc to reduce their prices.
Now Aldi are bringing out a 20v cordless system, they aren't as good IMO, but for the handyman who uses the tools three times a year, they will suffice for 1/2 the price of Ryobi.

These days with uber, improved public transport, cheap airfares and car hire, the requirement to have a top shelf car to get across the Nullabor are gone. Therefore I think the next generation, those around 30, will not put as much emphasize on a car as we did.
To a degree it is already happening, Hyundai, Kia's Toyota's etc are outselling Holden, Fords as people priorities differently.
It is going to be an interesting period smurf, which I think will be a lot of fun in a lot of ways.

 

[sptrawler]

Solar cars... jury is well and truly out on this one, both for the Nissan and the Electric Jesus vehicles.

Battery degradation is a real issue at this point in time and it is the biggest hurdle for EV's IMO, because when all the early uptakers are complaining at the same time Governments will have to take notice.
It is also the reason, that even though they are dearer in all aspects, fuel cell vehicles are more practical and sustainable.
Just my opinion.

 

[Boggo]

Another issue according to the inside goss that is being discussed at the moment at a state level is the loss of revenue from fuel purchases and how they are going to implement an electric user pays system.
If it is a local state discussion I'm sure we are not to only state looking into this.

I guess the they are rightly looking at why only the petrol /diesel users end up contributing to general revenue.

Apparently the area of contention is when to start making this public as the don't want to be seen to inhibit the electric expansion but they need to address it.
There is an element that would like to see petrol/diesel users under additional pressure but the realists are wondering who funds the road etc infrastructure when they are extinct.

 

[SirRumpole]

Another issue according to the inside goss that is being discussed at the moment at a state level is the loss of revenue from fuel purchases and how they are going to implement an electric user pays system.
If it is a local state discussion I'm sure we are not to only state looking into this.

I guess the they are rightly looking at why only the petrol /diesel users end up contributing to general revenue.

Apparently the area of contention is when to start making this public as the don't want to be seen to inhibit the electric expansion but they need to address it.
There is an element that would like to see petrol/diesel users under additional pressure but the realists are wondering who funds the road etc infrastructure when they are extinct.

Yes that has been discussed a fair bit in this thread.

It's a tough problem, but ultimately I think they will have to implement some form of recording chip for EV's that charges per km. This will obviously give a lot of work for the hackers to "turn back the speedos", just like the good old days.

 

[Smurf1976]

There is an element that would like to see petrol/diesel users under additional pressure but the realists are wondering who funds the road etc infrastructure when they are extinct.

I'll try to avoid much politics and just say that if fuel excise is even simply retained at present levels then it eventually becomes a tax on the poor in practice.

If it was up to me then once the sale of petrol and diesel cars comes to a halt or becomes only the cheapest cars you can buy I'd scrap fuel excise altogether and implement a new road pricing system for all vehicles regardless of technology.

My reason is that otherwise a fuel tax ends up being a tax on mostly poorer people in practice, assuming that there's a reasonable link between lower income and owning an older vehicle albeit an imperfect one, and that's not an acceptable approach socially or politically despite any environmental arguments in favour of it.

There's more tech than you might expect in current production vehicles in relation to that by the way. Eg tracking the movement of individual cars through cities is already done electronically - even relatively small cities do that now simply using bluetooth either from the car itself or from a device (eg mobile phone) within it.

It must also be said that fuel excise is not directly a road user charge. The money goes into consolidated revenue (Australian Government) and most roads are maintained by local or state governments not federal. There are grants handed out between the levels of government but it's a very loose link between excise revenue and the amount spent on roads. Where that goes is saying that declining revenue from petrol and diesel could be replaced by a tax on anything, it doesn't necessarily need to be a tax on EV's specifically.

 

[Jack Aubrey]

I just checked my diary and I'm off to a public forum tonight called "Will My Next Car Be Electric?". It will have speakers from the renewables lobby and our local (ACT) government (which apparently has a group dealing with transition issues!). If I get the chance, I'll ask about public recharging infrastructure, hydrogen alternatives and roads funding and report back here.

In theory, the ACT is already on 100% renewable electricity (basically because our wholesalers are compelled to buy renewable-sourced electricity from the grid and we do have some big solar and wind farms). Weirdly (if you believe the nay sayers), our electricity is cheaper than every State (but very close to Qld prices). The accounting on this boggles my mind.

 

[Junior]

It must also be said that fuel excise is not directly a road user charge. The money goes into consolidated revenue (Australian Government) and most roads are maintained by local or state governments not federal. There are grants handed out between the levels of government but it's a very loose link between excise revenue and the amount spent on roads. Where that goes is saying that declining revenue from petrol and diesel could be replaced by a tax on anything, it doesn't necessarily need to be a tax on EV's specifically.

Yes, and when you add in vehicle registration, parking fines, speeding fines, toll road charges etc., road users already contribute a huge amount of revenue into the pot.

 

[qldfrog]

Or taxation level could take a hit, and we could cut services, one rusted tincan less in obsolete submarine 20y for example just kidding, we are in Australia, the land of the never reducing budget

 

[SirRumpole]

I just checked my diary and I'm off to a public forum tonight called "Will My Next Car Be Electric?". It will have speakers from the renewables lobby and our local (ACT) government (which apparently has a group dealing with transition issues!). If I get the chance, I'll ask about public recharging infrastructure, hydrogen alternatives and roads funding and report back here.

In theory, the ACT is already on 100% renewable electricity (basically because our wholesalers are compelled to buy renewable-sourced electricity from the grid and we do have some big solar and wind farms). Weirdly (if you believe the nay sayers), our electricity is cheaper than every State (but very close to Qld prices). The accounting on this boggles my mind.

I'm sure we will all be interested in your report Jack.

 

[Value Collector]

Hydrogen is just an attempt by oil companies to keep the public attending petrol stations, and keep them in the business of drilling natural gas.

 

[SirRumpole]

Hydrogen is just an attempt by oil companies to keep the public attending petrol stations, and keep them in the business of drilling natural gas.

Maybe EV's are just a ruse by the power companies to get people to buy more electricity ?

Either way, the fuel has to come from somewhere and uses resources to make it.