Electric cars?

[Smurf1976]

I have seen electrolysis working back in the late 1960's when in my apprenticeship, it just made absolute sense to use wind power that wasn't being consumed to make H2, rather than make it in a power station.

There used to be a plant in Tasmania that went the whole way - water and electricity in, ammonia based fertilizers came out.

Long story short it was a viable industry with interstate markets as well as local until production based on natural gas became a big thing in Queensland. Once that happened it couldn't compete economically unless the power was close to free and the plant ended up being a very intermittent operation running only when there was surplus power otherwise going to waste but the proverbial writing was well and truly on the wall that it was game over before too much longer.

By the mid-1980's there was little chance of there being any spare power and so it closed permanently and has since been demolished.

I haven't looked into whether the economics of the process are any better now or not.

 

[Smurf1976]

What this means is we should not dump our diesel for EV, but agreed we should renew with EV when needing replacement

Strongly agreed yes.

I'm a fan of EV's but I'm also very consciously aware that scrapping perfectly good things and manufacturing new ones isn't at all a "green" approach in general.

New cars as EV's, new appliances as electric and ramping up renewable energy all make good sense but scrapping working things is a very different proposition.

 

[Smurf1976]

With 100 companies tinkering 
with EVs and investment dollars flooding in, it 
is easy to see how China is poised to win.

And not just win with EV's but win more generally.

The related technologies of the internal combustion engine, oil industry and aviation all played a substantial role in US dominance during the 20th Century. Not that the US invented all of it but they took its application to what can only be regarded as an extreme compared to anywhere else.

China's EV dominance likewise will have significance far beyond the automotive industry.

 

[Knobby22]

Knobby here is another article, that shows the dominance of the Chinese, in the elctric car space.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/10/28/can-countries-catch-chinas-electric-car-dominance/

From the article:
China, which 
is already the world’s largest market for electric vehicles, 
is charging forward in 
the global race to dominate the industry.
More than one million electric cars were sold in the country last year – representing half of global sales. The government has installed about a million charging stations on the streets – a far cry from the 15,800 public units in the UK.

With 100 companies tinkering 
with EVs and investment dollars flooding in, it 
is easy to see how China is poised to win.

“China’s market has 
huge room for growth,” said Siyi Mi of Bloomberg New Energy Finance, a research firm

Just before Christmas I heard a female Liberal politician argue with the conservative Macquarie Radio host of a late night show that EV was not the future for cars for at least another 20 years and listened as the listeners rang in to support her (the ignorance is astounding). She knew her base.

 

[Value Collector]

Strongly agreed yes.

I'm a fan of EV's but I'm also very consciously aware that scrapping perfectly good things and manufacturing new ones isn't at all a "green" approach in general.

New cars as EV's, new appliances as electric and ramping up renewable energy all make good sense but scrapping working things is a very different proposition.

I am not sure anyone is suggesting scrapping perfectly could cars, if you upgrade to an EV, you would obviously sell your current car into the used car market.

 

[qldfrog]

It is more i think about government policies which aim to that and are deeply flawn in term of environmental result
When you prevent access to a city to any diesel vehicle irrespective of its emission, it is a knee jerk reaction with overall negative result
Who will buy a diesel you are not allowed to drive
It is another regulated obsolescence, in the same way that your printer cartridge stop working after n prints
Good for sales..and taxes, a waste of resources with a varnish of "save the planet"

 

[sptrawler]

Just before Christmas I heard a female Liberal politician argue with the conservative Macquarie Radio host of a late night show that EV was not the future for cars for at least another 20 years and listened as the listeners rang in to support her (the ignorance is astounding). She knew her base.

I think what will happen will be, because it is a new space, there will be plenty of entrepreneurs who will want to make money filling the void.
Therefore once the supply issue is resolved, the demand and infrastructure, will quickly try to fill the void.
Not that I think the technology(battery) is that great yet, but once the change over starts and the Government start and gain the benefit of the storage effect, I think momentum will accelerate exponentially.

 

[SirRumpole]

Might be an interesting speech coming up from Albanese in Perth.

Leaks indicate he's going to support the mining industry and battery metals technology.

 

[SirRumpole]

PS Joe,

I think this thread deserves to be moved out of GC into Business/Investment/Economics.

What do you think ?

 

[sptrawler]

Might be an interesting speech coming up from Albanese in Perth.

Leaks indicate he's going to support the mining industry and battery metals technology.

Well that should keep the media on side. Hopefully it is battery construction, not just more digging and shipping.

 

[Joe Blow]

PS Joe,

I think this thread deserves to be moved out of GC into Business/Investment/Economics.

What do you think ?

Fine by me. Thread moved.

 

[Knobby22]

Well that should keep the media on side. Hopefully it is battery construction, not just more digging and shipping.

It would be good if the companies including the mining were Australian owned also and payed taxes.

Speaking of the dumbness of some of the right previously I think the far left also deserve a serve.
Violent protests at the mining conference today in Melbourne, attacking police and their horses (two arrested for cruelty to animals). Australia is now the worlds largest exporter of Lithium (70%), don't these protestors understand mining is important. I bet they all have mobile phones and think electric cars are good.

Victorian laws are weak. They removed the laws that allow the police to have the right to move on.
Honestly, this State Labor Government needs to grow a few balls.

Sorry for thread drift.

 

[sptrawler]

It would be good if the companies including the mining were Australian owned also and payed taxes.

Speaking of the dumbness of some of the right previously I think the far left also deserve a serve.
Violent protests at the mining conference today in Melbourne, attacking police and their horses (two arrested for cruelty to animals). Australia is now the worlds largest exporter of Lithium (70%), don't these protestors understand mining is important. I bet they all have mobile phones and think electric cars are good.

Victorian laws are weak. They removed the laws that allow the police to have the right to move on.
Honestly, this State Labor Government needs to grow a few balls.

Sorry for thread drift.

I think a lot of the protesters, just use protests as an excuse to behave badly, it is just like any other gang that think they can behave badly and illegally because they have numbers that the police can't handle.
They are no different to any other thugs really.
It is when the press and media sensationalise their behaviour, that problems start.

 

[SirRumpole]

I think a lot of the protesters, just use protests as an excuse to behave badly, it is just like any other gang that think they can behave badly and illegally because they have numbers that the police can't handle.
They are no different to any other thugs really.
It is when the press and media sensationalise their behaviour, that problems start.

Infiltration by anti capitalist Marxists I think.

 

[Jack Aubrey]

It would be good if the companies including the mining were Australian owned also and payed taxes.

Speaking of the dumbness of some of the right previously I think the far left also deserve a serve.
Violent protests at the mining conference today in Melbourne, attacking police and their horses (two arrested for cruelty to animals). Australia is now the worlds largest exporter of Lithium (70%), don't these protestors understand mining is important. I bet they all have mobile phones and think electric cars are good.

Victorian laws are weak. They removed the laws that allow the police to have the right to move on.
Honestly, this State Labor Government needs to grow a few balls.

Sorry for thread drift.

I don't have a problem with any protest, whether it is about mining, climate policy or franking credits. It is part of the democratic process and the "crackdowns" scare me a lot more than the protests. The recent Qld legislation is a very bad precedent in my view. And the feds threatening even more citizen surveillance is appalling. A bit of tolerance and acceptance that there are other views and ways of expressing them would be nice. The disruption and annoyance they cause is very temporary.

I do agree that protesting "the mining industry" is misguided. I am (was) an ecologist and the direct environmental impacts of mining are minuscule compared with those of broad acre agriculture and urban development - but the mythology persists. In my experience, Australian miners are often at the forefront of environmental science and management and that is one of their competitive advantages when expanding operations into other countries. IMO, the public perception problem is deep and arises from:

Legacy issues - mines operating early last century did so without environmental considerations and have left some truly awful and very expensive long-term problems (eg. Rum Jungle and many, many gold mines). These are deeply etched in public consciousness. The perception that miners take their profit (often with little benefit to the community) and then saddle the public with huge long-term costs, is very pervasive.

Industry Groups dominated by the big coal miners and the O&G sector (many of them multinationals) actively undermining (no pun) reasonable Government efforts to bring in more reasonable tax and CC emissions policies. They play hard and they win.

A Few Bad Apples - people like That Big Bloke and the woman who got her daddy's iron ore business - blatantly buying politicians and distorting policy in their favour. There are, of course, smaller and less visible cowboys (and girls) in the industry (as there are in any money-making enterprise, including in the renewables sector).

I'd really like to see the benefits and outstanding performances of the modern sector more widely known, but I don't see that happening while the current power imbalance in public policy remains.

 

[qldfrog]

Infiltration by anti capitalist Marxists I think.

You mean in shorter words: Australian Greens?

 

[sptrawler]

It will be interesting to see how the electric car field develops, and whether the Chinese companies can get a foot hold in Europe and the U.S.
One thing that may hold them back is the lack of badge value, but as has been seen with tools, people are buying tools at a price point these days this has driven down the cost of established tools like De Walt, Makita etc.
People seem to be a lot more price driven these days, using the extra money for dinning out, holidays etc. As opposed to years ago where tools, cars and other consumables were bought mainly on brand.
It hasn't been driven by income, as consumables in reality have dropped in relative price to wages, I think it is mainly due to a continuous improvement in the Chinese product.
It will be an interesting decade coming up IMO.

 

[SirRumpole]

It will be interesting to see how the electric car field develops, and whether the Chinese companies can get a foot hold in Europe and the U.S.
One thing that may hold them back is the lack of badge value, but as has been seen with tools, people are buying tools at a price point these days this has driven down the cost of established tools like De Walt, Makita etc.
People seem to be a lot more price driven these days, using the extra money for dinning out, holidays etc. As opposed to years ago where tools, cars and other consumables were bought mainly on brand.
It hasn't been driven by income, as consumables in reality have dropped in relative price to wages, I think it is mainly due to a continuous improvement in the Chinese product.
It will be an interesting decade coming up IMO.

I think the Chinese will do what they always have done, produce cheap but low quality merchandise , go after quick sales then run away when when the cracks appear.

 

[sptrawler]

I think the Chinese will do what they always have done, produce cheap but low quality merchandise , go after quick sales then run away when when the cracks appear.

That what everyone said about the Japanese in the 1960's and the Koreans in the 1990's.

 

[SirRumpole]

That what everyone said about the Japanese in the 1960's and the Koreans in the 1990's.

But Japan and Korea don't havea communist government that doesn't really care about the capitalist customers as long as they make a Renimbi.