Electric cars?

[sptrawler]

This.

Long term I very much doubt that car manufacturers will own the charging stations just as Ford or Toyota don’t sell petrol or diesel.

I agree with you completely, however it is a bit of a hen or egg story, mass infrastructure won't be rolled out until there is a demand.

 

[Value Collector]

It all sounds wonderful, but the charging station thing is great, while there is few cars wanting to use it.
Go and stand above any major road, freeway, intersection and think about all of them cars/trucks requiring a charge.
I know they won't all need a charge at the same time, but the pure volume of vehicles is amazing, to have enough charging points will take years.
They haven't even decided on a standard charging plug design, or indeed a standard voltage, the process will take years.

Most of them will be charging at home

 

[Value Collector]

Buzz and luring investors and lenders to park their cash in Tesla's bank account doesn't hurt either

It's going to be at least 10 years before people would adopt EV in any meaningful way, on any meaningful scale.

That's not because people don't like EV or doubt its ability to be driven around or such. It's just a matter of affordability and the seconds, the mechanic and insurance (costs) issue.

For the lucky SOBs [ahem ] who can afford a Tesla early... money and costs of repair might not matter much, if at all.

For the average Joe who's living from paycheck to paycheck, even if the Model 3 is affordable at $US25K, how much will Tesla or their approved mechanics costs per visit? How much will insurers charge?

I took my 6 year old car to get a pink slip some months ago. The mechanic don't even bothered looking the car over and charge me $45.

How much will it costs the owner to take their Tesla for a check up at one of those showroom-like mechanics? When my car was brand spanking new, I took it for an oil change and they charge me $250. I heard Tesla charges you by the minute to just look at its user manual.

With oil being finite, and of course corporations' concern for the environment, electric vehicles is the future. Just the rate of adoption would be some 10 to 20 years before there's enough of the basic infrastructure and support system to make it affordable for the masses.

Tesla is currently burning some $1B a quarter. 10 years would make it 40 quarters... then there's the competition from established car manufaturers whose existing products are bringing in the cash. Then there's the logistics, the relationship with suppliers, gov't and other infrastructures they can leverage.

Tesla is going to have a pretty tough time making it out of this alive.

But credit where credit's due. Musk is changing the world. Just that history might be repeating with the original Tesla - a man of genius who gave the world its electric grid etc. etc. He died in poverty.

There is a lot less parts that wear out or need regular "service" on an electric car

 

[satanoperca]

I firmly believe this is the future, however after ready the discussion can also see some issues.

I live inner city, so don't do a lot of km's per week, 400 would be a lot, one charge.
EV's are suited to those living inner city, however, those of us that live inner city park our cars on the street, garages (land is very expensive). How do we charge them?

While I live in a house in inner city Melbourne, there are lots of apartment towers, I used to live in one in the docklands, had a car park as most do, but again, I couldn't see the body corporate agreeing to put in charging points in every car park.

Where I see EV's and autonomous transport really taking hold fast will be in the uber/taxi sector, but again an autonomous transport vehicle picking up customers every minute of every hour, will need to get charged at least once a day, again the infrastructure needs to be place.

I see this industry as the most effected and computerization can create the greatest efficiency in customer load and requirements, plus no need to pay a driver

 

[SirRumpole]

How do we charge them?

I guess you would go to a "charging centre" once a week, just like you go to a petrol station now. It depends on how long it takes to charge I suppose, 3 hours could be inconvenient, 20 minutes would be acceptable.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Buzz and luring investors and lenders to park their cash in Tesla's bank account doesn't hurt either

Have to give him credit for the fanfare. Best way to deliver the new generation of road vehicle is get attention.

It's going to be at least 10 years before people would adopt EV in any meaningful way, on any meaningful scale.

Probably longer in Australia with large distance between places. 1000km on one charge for standard vehicles will allay range fear. Fast charge will dispel waiting time issue.

That's not because people don't like EV or doubt its ability to be driven around or such. It's just a matter of affordability and the seconds, the mechanic and insurance (costs) issue.

Yes that is what will need to be known and improved. The biggies being lifespan and cost including installation of a battery (degradation over time), the service interval of a traction motor, the cost including installation of a failed traction motor.

 

[Value Collector]

I live inner city, so don't do a lot of km's per week, 400 would be a lot, one charge.
EV's are suited to those living inner city, however, those of us that live inner city park our cars on the street, garages (land is very expensive). How do we charge them?

As Rumpy suggested 20 -30 mins at a charging station one a week would probably do you, while you do the grocery shopping.

But their is electricity everywhere, this company is turning power poles into charging stations.

 

[luutzu]

As Rumpy suggested 20 -30 mins at a charging station one a week would probably do you, while you do the grocery shopping.

But their is electricity everywhere, this company is turning power poles into charging stations.

Yea, there's power everywhere and I don't think there'll be issue with finding or setting up a charging station.

Problem would be the cost Tesla or charging station operators would charge per kW. It'll be whatever costPlus they want once enough EV is out there. Maybe competition might bring that down.

To set up a charger at home... I'd imagine you'd have to put in a dedicated line with 3-phase power or something.

Then there's the scratches, dents and bumps. Tesla looks like they're going the Apple model where they don't outsource parts and services to any cheap seconds market and corner shop mechanics.

 

[luutzu]

Have to give him credit for the fanfare. Best way to deliver the new generation of road vehicle is get attention.
Probably longer in Australia with large distance between places. 1000km on one charge for standard vehicles will allay range fear. Fast charge will dispel waiting time issue.
Yes that is what will need to be known and improved. The biggies being lifespan and cost including installation of a battery (degradation over time), the service interval of a traction motor, the cost including installation of a failed traction motor.

I guess every CEO must also be a showman now. I admire people who do stuff rather than sell stuff, especially selling it like they created it themselves.

I mean we all think Steve Jobs is a genius, and maybe he is in a business sense... but he's not the genius behind the technology as he or the media portrays it to be.

Drove the kids on a hired electric scooter in Bali recently. It was at a massive resort park out of public roads and one of them had on a helmet so we were responsible ... One full charge lasts about an hour. Chinese made with the barest minimum hardware.. and it was pretty dam good.

So yea, if I ever have $100K+ to throw around I'd get a Tesla right now. But I'm still changing my own car oil so it would hurt me very badly to take a Tesla to a shop and be screwed over by their authorised repairers.


The problem with digital and electronics is that the manufacturer can decide when they want certain parts to break down. I guess they can also design those warranty+5days lifespan on mechanical knobs too.

But yea, a Toyota Camry works fine with me. I drove my brother's very expensive BMW and it was no difference to the Suzuki Swift the wife got me for some reason. I guess she knows me better than I know myself

 

[Wysiwyg]

So yea, if I ever have $100K+ to throw around I'd get a Tesla right now. But I'm still changing my own car oil so it would hurt me very badly to take a Tesla to a shop and be screwed over by their authorised repairers.

"Build quality is a major issue with Tesla right now". I assume cheap plastic crap, thin/soft metals and new car manufacturer assembly and alignment issues. This video is current with a new car experience.



As I said before, first adopters beware.

 

[luutzu]

"Build quality is a major issue with Tesla right now". I assume cheap plastic crap, thin/soft metals and new car manufacturer assembly and alignment issues. This video is current with a new car experience.



As I said before, first adopters beware.

Early adopters, like pioneers, gets arrows and scalped.

But I'd imagine I'd be grinning the first week or two if I have my own Tesla though. It does look pretty freakin cool.

I'd probably offered to drive everyone everywhere that first few weeks. Like when we first got our Ps.

 

[Logique]

In the truck announcement, Elon said his "Mega chargers" for the trucks are going to have a guaranteed price of 7cents per KWH, because he is going to power them with Solar panels and Tesla power packs.
But, do you think Oil is going to stay cheap? electricity with its multiple sources will continue to be the cheapest energy source, (Australia's current issues are political, not engineering issues)
----------------Listen at the 7 minute mark, he talks about guaranteeing electricity charges.

Elon Musk? 7c kWh electricity? Don't make me laugh

 

[Value Collector]

Elon Musk? 7c kWh electricity? Don't make me laugh

Whats funny?

 

[Value Collector]

Yea, there's power everywhere and I don't think there'll be issue with finding or setting up a charging station.

Problem would be the cost Tesla or charging station operators would charge per kW. It'll be whatever costPlus they want once enough EV is out there. Maybe competition might bring that down.

To set up a charger at home... I'd imagine you'd have to put in a dedicated line with 3-phase power or something.

Then there's the scratches, dents and bumps. Tesla looks like they're going the Apple model where they don't outsource parts and services to any cheap seconds market and corner shop mechanics.

What would be wrong with paying for electricity? You pay for fuel by the liter already.

You can charge from home using a standard power point, or if you want faster charging you can install a 3 phase plug.

Agl currently has a $1 per day unlimited car charging plan.

Also, charging station would be much cheaper to set up than a petrol station, the also have lower running costs, because they can be unmanned, and don't require trucks delivering fuel etc

 

[Value Collector]

Yea, there's power everywhere and I don't think there'll be issue with finding or setting up a charging station.

Problem would be the cost Tesla or charging station operators would charge per kW. It'll be whatever costPlus they want once enough EV is out there. Maybe competition might bring that down.

To set up a charger at home... I'd imagine you'd have to put in a dedicated line with 3-phase power or something.

Then there's the scratches, dents and bumps. Tesla looks like they're going the Apple model where they don't outsource parts and services to any cheap seconds market and corner shop mechanics.

What would be wrong with paying for electricity? You pay for fuel by the liter already.

You can charge from home using a standard power point, or if you want faster charging you can install a 3 phase plug.

Agl currently has a $1 per day unlimited car charging plan.

Also, charging station would be much cheaper to set up than a petrol station, the also have lower running costs, because they can be unmanned, and don't require trucks delivering fuel etc

 

[luutzu]

What would be wrong with paying for electricity? You pay for fuel by the liter already.

You can charge from home using a standard power point, or if you want faster charging you can install a 3 phase plug.

Agl currently has a $1 per day unlimited car charging plan.

Also, charging station would be much cheaper to set up than a petrol station, the also have lower running costs, because they can be unmanned, and don't require trucks delivering fuel etc

Nothing's wrong with paying people to use their services and labour. Just that there's a difference between what's fair and what's entrepreneurial.

Not all efficiency would be passed onto the consumer. We all know that.

AGL might offer that $1 a day now, they'll get it back a few times over whenever they find it's appropriate for their shareholders. Kinda like initially buying power from domestic solar panels at some 20cents... they know buy the same power for 7cents or so, sell the same power to the same set of consumers for 21cents.

Saw on YouTube that Tesla in the US is starting to charge its SuperCharger user $0.45 per minute they left their charged car at the station.

So the moment your car is charged, you have 5 minutes to get out or be slug the fee.

The lady was a bit worried whether she overparked or not, and how much extra she's going to have to pay at her next Tesla checkup.

I'm guessing Tesla haven't had time to build an app to notify the car's owner their car has been charged. So owners will either have to stay in the car while it's being charged, or run back and forth, or just pay up.

All for the good of fellow customers so they won't wait for inconsiderate owners who parked their car their all day, of course.

Getting a 3-phase power line to your garrage won't be cheap either. Might need a separate meter, a seperate account, a whole bunch of paper work then a suitably qualified electrician who charges $500 for just cutting a cable from a pole.

So yea, Tesla and EVs are nice. Just for the average people who have to think about food, bills, taxes... it's going to be a while before the adoption rate make it economical. Until then, the first adopters will have to not think about the costs, just the pleasure of owning one.

 

[SirRumpole]

Until then, the first adopters will have to not think about the costs, just the pleasure of owning one.

And the rest of us will be using them as guinea pigs to see what the problems are.

I wonder if Tesla co is using their own product as company cars ?

 

[Wysiwyg]

And the rest of us will be using them as guinea pigs to see what the problems are.

I wonder if Tesla co is using their own product as company cars ?

I wonder if they stringently test them. Like shake the car for hours, operate the electronics thousands of times and run the motor continuously until failure. With a rush to beat everyone to market obviously not.

 

[luutzu]

And the rest of us will be using them as guinea pigs to see what the problems are.

I wonder if Tesla co is using their own product as company cars ?

That's what one owner I saw on YT said he feels like too.

But to be fair to Tesla, they're doing something unique with nothing but ambition, genius and lots of other people's money.

The Toyota, VW and Great Wall [haha] of the world will be studying and cut out all the bells and whistles. Put in their proper manufacturing processes and logistics and might win the day.

Maybe I'm showing my age but I get into a car and all I care about is going forward, reverse, fuel in the tank. Done.

Just got the bluetooth to connect on one car, the other I just turn the phone louder for the music because its cheapy "bluetooth" add-on don't work very well and I'd need to read the user manual to adjust and upgrade its software.

So a car with all the height adjustments, the auto-drive and fancy stuff... nice, expensive, good to have but a bit heavy on the pocket.

Kinda like that electric scooter I hired. It has 3 LED indicator showing the battery life. And that's it. For the speedometer you use your own judgement. The weather and temperature you check how sweaty you get.

That's why Henry Ford won the day. He doesn't focus on the comfort (or safety), don't care for a chauffer (or Tesla's e-equivalent), or care for the look (any colour as long as it's black).

Don't go that far but yea.

 

[Smurf1976]

One consequence of mass adoption of electric vehicles is that if home charging is the dominant and economical means then that ought to have some broader influence. Houses with off street parking with power available become more attractive and gain value relative to those without it.

Significant costs for apartment complexes etc once residents demand that power is available for vehicle charging.

Not a good time to be in the business of maintaining vehicles given that electric cars by their nature need far less routine maintenance.

If self driving vehicles become common then that changes society in far broader ways since those who cannot now drive will no longer have that barrier.

It’ll be the saviour of the electricity grid in climates where standalone solar is a serious option. That idea doesn’t work nearly as well once the need to charge vehicles is added.

There’s a lot of broader outcomes from this one. Just like how computers have gone radically further than the obvious replacement of typewriters and aircraft did far more than simply diverting passengers from trains and ships. Entire new industries spring up, and others are wiped out, with this sort of change.