Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%

  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.9%

  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.8%

  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 37 18.9%

  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 24 12.2%

  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%
  • Total voters
    196
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Value Collector said:
With 3000 people dying in Australia due to air pollution each year, costing $24 Billion. I can see that eventually it would be considered immoral.
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What about all the people that die from pollution from coal fired power stations ? Not to mention mining accidents, black lung disease etc.
 
SirRumpole said:
What about all the people that die from pollution from coal fired power stations ? Not to mention mining accidents, black lung disease etc.
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Electricity comes from multiple sources, with coal in the slow process of being phased out.

but even then.

1, Coal plants tend to be located in areas where population is not dense, where as cars are blowing their emissions right into high population areas, often right in peoples faces.

2, Petrol and diesel comes from refineries that also pollute a lot, so its not just the cars themselves, but the refineries also, so you have multiple layers of pollution with petrol.

3, oil and gas industry has deaths just like the coal industry, however with electric cars only a portion of the energy comes from coal and that amount is shrinking by the year,

4, Solar panels and electric vehicles sales are linked, People with solar panels are more likely to get an electric car, and people with electric cars are more likely to invest in solar panels, so electric cars lead to a faster up take of renewable energy.
 
So far as coal-fired power versus petrol or diesel is concerned, I'd take coal-fired power any day.

How many wars are fought and dictators funded by oil? Rather a lot over the past century with untold human misery as the consequence.

Coal spilled on the ground or in the ocean is a minor problem environmentally and straightforward to clean up to an acceptable standard. Oil is a massively greater problem.

The world supply of coal is far greater than oil. Hence there's no need to be looking for it in environmentally sensitive areas or fighting over it.

There are a myriad of non-fuel uses for the world's relatively limited supply of oil versus far fewer other uses for the far more abundant coal. Switching from oil to coal makes sense on that basis alone.

A large coal-fired power station can be, and in any developed country will be, equipped with far better emissions controls in practice than millions of individually small petrol or diesel engines. Apart from CO2 which is not visible to the human eye, if you take a look at Loy Yang, Bayswater, Collie, Tarong or any other coal-fired power station in Australia then you'll be stunned at how clean it actually is considering the amount of power being produced.

To the extent that they do pollute, emissions from a coal-fired power station are going up a 200+ metre tall stack at a location usually well away from cities. That beats being emitted barely above ground level in a place where millions are living. Even if the power station was built in the CBD of a city it's at least not pumping fumes into the face of the driver behind you.

I'm not saying that coal is a great fuel, the CO2 issue is a definite downside, but it beats oil in every other way that's for sure. Oil also emits a lot of CO2 of course.

There's also a point that Australia imports a net 70% of the oil we use. That is we produce 0.3 million barrels per day and use about 1 million barrels per day. It's even higher on a gross basis since most of the fuel we use in vehicles is either imported as petrol / diesel or is refined here from imported crude, much of the Australian oil production being exported unrefined. That's a massive national security risk if the supply is disrupted.

In contrast electricity is, apart from remote areas relying on diesel generators and some oil-fired peaking plants in the grid (significant in SA, of minor relevance elsewhere), produced from Australian resources. Coal mined not far from the power station. Gas extracted in Australia. Renewable resources which are local by nature. That aspect alone is a reason to use electricity in preference to petrol or diesel where practical.
 
Well, we are just going to have to go away from burning anything if we can avoid it, but our present government is tied to the coal industry through donations. Sure I would buy an electric car if it was cost competitive and had sufficient range.

So Smurf are you advocating a massive new investment in coal power stations to feed electric vehicles ?

Personally I think that diesel electric hybrids give the best of both worlds, electric for city use to cut pollution, diesel for country trips for the range.
 
SirRumpole said:
So Smurf are you advocating a massive new investment in coal power stations to feed electric vehicles ?
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No. Renewables are the way things are going with the only question being how to get there.

But if, hypothetically, it's a choice between coal or petrol / diesel then I'll take coal not because it's good but because it has fewer bad points than petrol / diesel.

I'd rather we go renewable but if we need to get there via coal then that beats sticking with petrol in my view. At least with an electric car the opportunity is there to shift the power supply over time from coal / gas to renewable but with petrol we're stuck with fossil fuels until they run out.

In saying that I do acknowledge that we're stuck with petrol and diesel in many uses for quite some time yet and I'm not saying they ought to be banned etc. But if it's practical for someone to switch to electricity then I don't see the use of coal as the power source as a reason to not do so - it's still a step forward today and creates the possibility of taking the second step (renewable) in due course.

Plug-in electric hybrids make a lot of sense from an Australian perspective. Electric in the city and petrol / diesel for longer trips. That the electricity would be partly coming from coal doesn't change that in my view - it still emits CO2 yes but it gets pollution out of the cities and cuts our use of oil so it's a definite step forward.
 
Value Collector said:
With 3000 people dying in Australia due to air pollution each year, costing $24 Billion. I can see that eventually it would be considered immoral.
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So pollution from cars kills 3,000 Australians annually? And costs $24Bill? Forgive me if I'm sceptical.
 
Logique said:
So pollution from cars kills 3,000 Australians annually? And costs $24Bill? Forgive me if I'm sceptical.
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Heres the link.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/3...ls-for-tougher-standards-20151113-gkygv1.html

Its not just Cars, its Air pollution in general, which in our cities cars and trucks are a major contributor to.

Air pollution causes a range of health concerns, everything from asthma to lung cancer, treating these things is where the $24 Billion goes.

If anything you should be sceptical of claims that adding large quantities of poisonous gas to the air we breathe wouldn't cause increase medical costs and deaths.
 
Look, if electric cars/hybrids become approachable on price and convenience, it makes sense, especially within the metro cities.

But there'd have to be lots of re-charging stations, e.g. how would an electric car go on an Adelaide -Alice Springs - Darwin road trip? Or across the Nullarbor to/from Perth?

Let's have a gradual, fair and sensible transition. I wouldn't agree for example, with putting aged or disability pensioners out of their 1998 petrol engine Corollas, and making them buy a hybrid!
 
Logique said:
Let's have a gradual, fair and sensible transition. I wouldn't agree for example, with putting aged or disability pensioners out of their 1998 petrol engine Corollas, and making them buy a hybrid!
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Who's putting up such a proposal ? Nix.
The need is to move as quickly as possible to all new vehicles being EV powered. In theory over the next 20 years most petrol powered vehicles will be retired.

If one wanted to hasten that process then there could be cash payments made to trade in petrol vehicles for electric powered cars.

The difficult part is that if this process was started 20-30 years ago a slow transition would be possible. However the need to rapidly reduce CO2 emissions if we are to have a ghost of a chance to stabilise global warming makes the current situation very difficult.

I will propose an interesting alternative for your aged or disability pensioners however. Why not develop a fleet of self driving electric cars available for, initially, aged/disability pensioners ? These people would appreciate having access to transport at a cost that would compare very favourably to the registration, insurance, repairs and petrol costs of a 20 year old car.
 
basilio said:
Who's putting up such a proposal ? Nix....I will propose an interesting alternative for your aged or disability pensioners however. Why not develop a fleet of self driving electric cars available for, initially, aged/disability pensioners ? These people would appreciate having access to transport at a cost that would compare very favourably to the registration, insurance, repairs and petrol costs of a 20 year old car.
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Why not Bas, although the self-driving thing might initially be a bit scarey, especially behind a B-Double on the Hwy!
 
basilio said:
Who's putting up such a proposal ? Nix.
The need is to move as quickly as possible to all new vehicles being EV powered. In theory over the next 20 years most petrol powered vehicles will be retired.

If one wanted to hasten that process then there could be cash payments made to trade in petrol vehicles for electric powered cars.
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It takes about 20 years to turn over most of the fleet in Australia.

Sure there are still a few 40 year old cars around but looking at past experience (eg the leaded petrol phase out) it took about 20 years to go from virtually 100% of cars using it (very few diesels around back then) to a point where it was no longer viable to keep selling Super petrol due to lack of volume.

So if all new cars were EV's starting in 2020 then it will be about 2040 when it becomes hard to obtain petrol since pretty much nobody wants it. In the meantime there would be a roughly linear decline in consumption.

As for "cash for clunkers" schemes I'm not a fan of them personally. As a way to get unsafe vehicles or those which are emitting a lot of non-CO2 pollutants off the road they might have some merit. But if CO2 is the concern then once you add it all up they're a dud at least until we get to the point where the electricity used to charge an EV is predominantly renewable.

In the Australian context there's no realistic chance that Qld, NSW or Vic (where the bulk of the population lives) is going to have predominantly renewable electricity anytime soon so the value of a "cash for clunkers" scheme is somewhat limited versus other ways of spending the same money (eg increasing the proportion of renewable energy in the grid).
 
Smurf1976 said:
It takes about 20 years to turn over most of the fleet in Australia.

Sure there are still a few 40 year old cars around but looking at past experience (eg the leaded petrol phase out) it took about 20 years to go from virtually 100% of cars using it (very few diesels around back then) to a point where it was no longer viable to keep selling Super petrol due to lack of volume.

So if all new cars were EV's starting in 2020 then it will be about 2040 when it becomes hard to obtain petrol since pretty much nobody wants it. In the meantime there would be a roughly linear decline in consumption.

As for "cash for clunkers" schemes I'm not a fan of them personally. As a way to get unsafe vehicles or those which are emitting a lot of non-CO2 pollutants off the road they might have some merit. But if CO2 is the concern then once you add it all up they're a dud at least until we get to the point where the electricity used to charge an EV is predominantly renewable.

In the Australian context there's no realistic chance that Qld, NSW or Vic (where the bulk of the population lives) is going to have predominantly renewable electricity anytime soon so the value of a "cash for clunkers" scheme is somewhat limited versus other ways of spending the same money (eg increasing the proportion of renewable energy in the grid).
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Imagine how nice it would be, driving on the freeway with the window down, not choking on fumes and having the stereo drowned out by engine noise!

In 20 years' time it might be like walking past a smoker, seeing a lone car in traffic which produces exhaust, the driver receiving dirty looks from other motorists.
 
Value Collector said:
Tesla already rolled out super chargers between Brisbane and Adelaide. and more are coming rapidly. So road trips are not a problem, especially considering you can charge at your destination.

You can drive pretty much anywhere across the USA using the super charger network.

this guy drove Brisbane to Melbourne in his Tesla showing all the superchargers, and the more cars that sell the more charging locations will be built.

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Thought I would move this reply to the electric car thread. Brisbane to Adelaide is great, I recently drove from basically SA to Canberra including many hours on the Hume. Not that I was looking that hard but I didn't see one charging station advertised. Interestingly the only place I saw a charging station was a Telsa charging station at a random winery in Rutherglen which is a small town.

This article is worth a read which goes into some of the mistakes other countries have made with their charging station roll out.

Our research suggests governments need to ensure that recharging stations work for motorists, rather than just for the network providers. Recharge points should have standardised fittings, easy payment options such as credit and debit card facilities, and prompt maintenance — all features of existing fuel stations.

Imagine if you could only fill up with petrol by pre-registering with a network, such as Caltex or Shell, and making sure you had paid in advance before taking a long trip. It sounds ridiculous, but that is the situation electric motorists face in some places.

Britain has multiple subscriber-only recharging networks, which frequently have chargers that are out of order.
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-09/why-is-australia-so-slow-at-adopting-electric-cars/9135798
 
Logique said:
Look, if electric cars/hybrids become approachable on price and convenience, it makes sense, especially within the metro cities.

But there'd have to be lots of re-charging stations, e.g. how would an electric car go on an Adelaide -Alice Springs - Darwin road trip? Or across the Nullarbor to/from Perth?
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Tesla already has the Brisbane to Adelaide run covered, more are coming. you can already drive anywhere in the USA right now.

But talking about Adelaide to Darwin, or the Nullarbor, It makes a lot more sense to have a solar power and battery installation at a few key spots charging cars in the middle of no where, than to rely on ships bringing oil from over seas, then refining it to fuel, then having a network of trucks driving 1000's of kilometres just to drop fuel off for cars and trucks to refuel.

Imagine a self contained recharging station powered by solar and batteries, once its built it would require little maintenance and you could do away with a lot of the ships and trucks delivering liquid fuel to the middle of no where.
 
overhang said:
Not that I was looking that hard but I didn't see one charging station advertised. Interestingly the only place I saw a charging station was a Telsa charging station at a random winery in Rutherglen which is a small town.
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They aren't advertised, All the locations are built into the cars system, and when you add the trip into your cars GPS, it will automatically suggest locations to stop along the way. (no need to advertise them)

They are generally put at locations that are considered nice places to stop, with toilets food etc. and are spaced at intervals that are considered good driving rhythm.

This map is over a year old, but look how they have covered the main USA road trip routes.

Tesla-NA.png
 
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