Electric cars?

[rederob]

One ev at Olympic dam....

So what?
The technology for EVs is highly advanced. Your claim on that point was not factual.
EV's are being introduced rapidly into a very low volume sector.
The mining sector already has new mines being built around the technology in advance of the equipment being manufactured.
Your claims of a 10 year time horizon will be busted within 5 years. That's what the mining industry is saying, so don't take my word.

 

[moXJO]

Your claims of a 10 year time horizon will be busted within 5 years. That's what the mining industry is saying, so don't take my word.

I doubt it.

 

[basilio]

It's interesting to see how peoples preconceptions can take them down a particular path in believing whether EV's make economic sense "now" or "maybe in the future".

I went to a presentation on electric cars today and while I did know a bit before afterwards .... ! Basically the economics of manufacturing electric cars is all over IC cars. Far cheaper engines, very simple gearbox a ton less components radiators, fuel systems ect. The platform system for constructing a vehicle is very elegant and versitile

Far cheaper energy supply. NO AIRBORNE POLLUTION

Battery prices are falling rapidly. The mining industry will very quickly recognise the cost benefits of EV trucks and utes. Wait for farmers to work out that an electric tractor doesn't drink fuel like a drunken sailor and that a 10kw solar panel array will power their gear
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/20/electric-tractors-have-advantages-over-diesels/
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/1...ic-tractor-with-a-really-long-extension-cord/
https://www.solectrac.com/

 

[Smurf1976]

One ev at Olympic dam....

My observation is that the mining industry has, perhaps to the surprise of many although it makes sense if given some thought, emerged as one of the industries keener than most to understand and adopt the technology.

The electricity industry was the keenest and most enthusiastic obviously, hence cars being converted to electric power decades ago as research projects, but mining seems to have seen the potential largely due to the potential for economic benefits additional to the pure cost savings on running the vehicle itself. The issues with fumes underground and so on.

As of right now though, well mines use electricity but mostly not in the form of battery powered road vehicles. So it hasn't actually happened yet despite the enthusiasm.

Non existent claims, you post ev sales brochures and a load of twaddle. Evs are not superior today. You would have to be delusional to think they were.

There are niche circumstances where an EV easily beats internal combustion using present technology but as a whole, agreed they're not quite there yet in terms of the overall price + functionality combination. If they were then we'd already have huge volumes being sold to the general public but that clearly isn't the case. It's happening but it hasn't actually happened yet.

The big problem with the entire discussion about energy is that it has become religious in nature. A lot of "belief" stuff in one view or another in a subject which is about science and technology doesn't fit at all well.

 

[moXJO]

My observation is that the mining industry has, perhaps to the surprise of many although it makes sense if given some thought, emerged as one of the industries keener than most to understand and adopt the technology.

The electricity industry was the keenest and most enthusiastic obviously, hence cars being converted to electric power decades ago as research projects, but mining seems to have seen the potential largely due to the potential for economic benefits additional to the pure cost savings on running the vehicle itself. The issues with fumes underground and so on.

As of right now though, well mines use electricity but mostly not in the form of battery powered road vehicles. So it hasn't actually happened yet despite the enthusiasm.



There are niche circumstances where an EV easily beats internal combustion using present technology but as a whole, agreed they're not quite there yet in terms of the overall price + functionality combination. If they were then we'd already have huge volumes being sold to the general public but that clearly isn't the case. It's happening but it hasn't actually happened yet.

The big problem with the entire discussion about energy is that it has become religious in nature. A lot of "belief" stuff in one view or another in a subject which is about science and technology doesn't fit at all well.

I'm excited about evs and will no doubt buy after they iron some of the kinks out. But its not just the vehicles themselves. You need the infrastructure, skilled technicians, availability of parts. Some of the tesla owners were waiting 6 weeks for repairs.

Then if it were to scale worldwide theres a whole bunch of other issues.
Wide scale adoption takes time.

I think people are getting ahead of themselves thinking its moving faster then it is.

 

[Smurf1976]

I think people are getting ahead of themselves thinking its moving faster then it is.

Also worth considering that the barriers aren't just technical but also cultural.

When it comes to energy use overall, cars are somewhere in the middle in terms of the required technology. Not up there with computers and sending things into space, cars have computers yes but you don't actually need one to make a car work (eg any 1970's or earlier car is purely mechanical and electrical, no computers), but far more complex than something like boiling a kettle.

Now on that latter point heating water really is as simple as it gets in all this. Adding low grade heat to the most common liquid. Can't get much simpler than that and it's one of the larger uses of energy globally.

And yet despite extensive efforts toward the mainstream use of solar and other efficient methods to heat water dating back to the 1930's, the reality is that in 2019 most water is still heated using either gas or an electric element and in some locations diesel is significant too. Only in a few fairly limited areas have solar or heat pumps become mainstream technology.

Even more basic than that, simply changing the time of day that electric storage water heaters operate to better suit the changing (more wind and solar) electricity supply mix has thus far proven to be culturally and administratively a bridge too far here in South Australia.

In the absence of an actual military war breaking out and requiring action, don't for a moment underestimate the cultural barriers in the way of all this at every level from national governments to consumers.

EV's will happen but there's more to it than pure economic and technical reasoning. If that's all there was then this stuff would happen far more quickly.

 

[Value Collector]

Perhaps in a mining setting but not for the people who routinely need to drive long distances. You need long range fuel tanks. It can be a long way from point a to b. And the wet season means you are crossing deep creeks. Red dirt gets through everything, I'm unsure if there is any affect on ev component's. If you run out of petrol its an easy fix. If you run out of battery power the solution isn't as easy.
You would have to dot charging stations everywhere.
At this stage I don't see it being practical till range and other issues are addressed.

You are talking about a super small percentage of the population there,

Tesla model S can get 660 kms to a charge, I don’t think there are many places routinely travelled that have that far between power points.

Also, Tesla evs are completely sealed underneath, they would deal with dust and water better than a regular car.

 

[Value Collector]

Tesla model S floats well enough to be operated as a boat for a short period of time.

 

[Smurf1976]

Something I'll add is that whilst I'm not expecting petrol to be obsolete in the medium term, it'll be a long slow decline, EV's or some other technology is definitely going to happen. There's simply too much momentum now for it not to.

Hence my recent electrical works at home having made provision for future installation of a 32A (L2 ~7kW) EV charger.

When? Don't know but I'm sure it will be needed well within the lifespan of the other components I've installed / replaced for other reasons hence the provision for the straightforward addition of the EV charger.

That said, a ~7kW charger at home is overkill for any normal use really so a better way to look at it is to say that I've made provision for the easy installation of two chargers of half that capacity.

Provision as in Consumers Mains, Metering and Switchboard all suitably rated and with physical space to accommodate the EV chargers but no actual charger installation as yet (since I don't have anything to charge with it).

 

[Macquack]

Smurf, I have always wondered if you were a boy scout?

"Be Prepared".

 

[rederob]

If they were then we'd already have huge volumes being sold to the general public but that clearly isn't the case. It's happening but it hasn't actually happened yet.

EVs are competitive in certain market segments where they outsell long established marques, and they do it on every metric.
EVs are yet to scale into production, and in a fashion can be likened to what's happened with solar panels. Prices are also coming down rapidly as the manufacturers tailor products to market segments.
The fact that every major vehicle producer in the world has one or more EV models on the drawing boards and proposes to progressively convert most of their range tells us the race outcome. The fact that more niche players are entering the market - the likes of Voltra and Rivian - tells us that there are few technological barriers.
The mining sector has different challenges for open cut versus underground. Open cut already has heavy haul vehicles running diesel/electric trolley trucks (but without batteries). Haulage operations UG will use BEV technology. BEV technology UG is superior on almost every metric and will be transformative relatively quickly.

 

[Smurf1976]

Smurf, I have always wondered if you were a boy scout?

"Be Prepared".

Nope, no Scouting.

I am however very much a "do it once, do it properly" sort of person.

EV's are coming so if I'm doing something relevant it would be silly to not include provision.

 

[sptrawler]

There seems to be a bit of confusion regarding mining trucks using diesel electric drive systems, this isn't new or recent technology, haulpac trucks were using it in the 1970s. It gave better speed and traction control, having the electric motors in the wheels and having the diesel driving a generator, I was rebuilding them in my early 20s and I'm in my 60s now.
So it is incorrect to think it had been brought about or influenced by the adoption of renewables or Bev's.
Also back then in the deep shaft mines, we ran battery electric locos to pull ore carriages to the skips, so it has been a pretty slow progress in reality.

 

[qldfrog]

I was not implying it was new, komatsu trucks have had electric drive since i started in mining 20y+ ago.just to say that mining is not opposed to electricity..when it makes senses.
EV utes running around on mine sites is not for tomorrow...
And remember the 6 billions a year of diesel taxes refunded , not even a cost incentive
6 billion is the franking credit labour crappy plan recovery hope....
Good damn economists and environment minded party i am sure...

 

[rederob]

EV utes running around on mine sites is not for tomorrow...
And remember the 6 billions a year of diesel taxes refunded , not even a cost incentive
6 billion is the franking credit labour crappy plan recovery hope....
Good damn economists and environment minded party i am sure...

BEVs are exactly for tomorrow wrt to mine sites, as the sector is small scale and has unique conditions. That's why this organisation was established.
And apart from the other ute I linked, there's the Bortana EV.
Mining companies are closely assessing their carbon footprints as they all need to be good corporate citizens. Those publicly listed want to show investors what their efforts are at CO2 mitigation and BEVs are an easy sell.
However, the real selling point of BEVs now is that battery energy densities are at a level that enables mining equipment to be readily reconfigured so it's not just as practical, but delivers significant savings to mining operations overall.

 

[Value Collector]

There seems to be a bit of confusion regarding mining trucks using diesel electric drive systems, this isn't new or recent technology, haulpac trucks were using it in the 1970s. It gave better speed and traction control, having the electric motors in the wheels and having the diesel driving a generator, I was rebuilding them in my early 20s and I'm in my 60s now.
So it is incorrect to think it had been brought about or influenced by the adoption of renewables or Bev's.
Also back then in the deep shaft mines, we ran battery electric locos to pull ore carriages to the skips, so it has been a pretty slow progress in reality.

Some mining equipment runs on electricity via power leads.

Check out this digger, you can see the power cord hanging out the back.




This monster shovel is also electric.

 

[Smurf1976]

AGL’s huge coal mine at Loy Yang (Vic, near Traralgon) is very much an electric operation although that’s fed via cables not batteries.

CO2 arguments about coal aside, it’s an impressive operation to see. Great big bucket wheel dredgers digging the coal which goes straight onto conveyor belts taking it out of the mine. So it’s not a conventional “big trucks” sort of mine at all.

They’re mining over a million tonnes of coal every fortnight so it’s a big operation yes.

 

[IFocus]

Some mining equipment runs on electricity via power leads.

Check out this digger, you can see the power cord hanging out the back.




This monster shovel is also electric.

VC electric shovels have been around for ever along with haul pack trucks etc I worked on electric haul pack motors in the 70's also drag lines started using electrical power in 1912.

 

[sptrawler]

VC electric shovels have been around for ever along with haul pack trucks etc I worked on electric haul pack motors in the 70's also drag lines started using electrical power in 1912.

I worked on the haulpac wheels at Fred Tulks, in Osborne Park, before Westinghouse bought them out, did you work there?

 

[SirRumpole]

Tough times at Tesla.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05...n-10-months-unless-it-curbs-spending/11126356