Electric cars?

[sptrawler]

Yeah, but I said if you trip to work was a 250km round trip, and you can charge at home, you wouldn’t need external charging to complete your daily commute then, and that would be most people situation I believe.

—————————————

Sounds like your “range prediction” you are using is just the stated range on the fuel gauge, not a prediction actually taking the lay of the land etc into consideration.

I am not sure about your car, But on the Tesla if you plug the destination into the GPS it will give you an actual accurate prediction based on terrain, weather, traffic etc etc. and tell you what % battery you should have at your destination.

At any one time you can have 3 “range predictions” all saying different things, it’s easy to get confused if you don’t know what sort of prediction you are looking at.

Actually from the research I did before buying what I did, the guess o meter on the Kona was far more accurate than the Tesla. As regard terrain on the coastal strip in W.A it is dead flat.
Some would appear to over quote, while some others appear to under quote.
I'm just trying to give a honest opinion from someone who owns one in W.A and actually doesn't need to use it and I do have five electric bicycles and have had several electric scooters so comparing the efficiency is a bit of an interest to me.
Talking about the negatives isn't an attack, it is just a reflection of the reality, unless the charging infrastructure keeps up with the uptake, there will be a major train wreck IMO.
A bit like the electrical power generation over East, unless the alternatives arrive before the current generators pull the pin, there will be a lack of generating infrastructure.
If that happens instead of cash is king, it will be gas is king, everything is relative.
Workers wont charge every day, they will say, i'll wait till tomorrow it is going to be sunny and free.lol

What's The Real World Highway Range Of Today's Electric Cars? We Test To Find Out

We take the most popular electric cars, fully charge them, and then drive them at 70 mph to find out just how far they will go. Which one goes the furthest?

insideevs.com

The longest-range electric cars you can buy today | Autocar

Some of the cheapest EVs can crack 200 miles now – but the best can do double that

www.autocar.co.uk

What Car? Real Range: which electric car can go farthest in the real world?

With demand for electric models soaring, What Car? has developed a test that shows their Real Range between charges. Here we reveal the best and worst performers

www.whatcar.com

 

[Value Collector]

Like I said, come on a holiday over here and actually see the issue, or better still go to Darwin rent a Tesla and go to Uluru.
I keep saying it isn't a one size fits all, you guys are obviously well healed living in affluent areas serviced by your own mega solar and plentiful charging infrastructure, there are other people less fortunate.
Explain the downsides as well as the upsides, even though you two don't experience them.
There is a blue collar working class out there in the boom docks, that actually want some honest grass roots feedback, believe it or not.

Ok, but again that not what we were about, I specifically mentioned 250 km round trips with home charging, which I believed would be “most” people, (not everyone)

 

[Value Collector]

Actually from the research I did before buying what I did, the guess o meter on the Kona was far more accurate than the Tesla. As regard terrain on the coastal strip in W.A it is dead flat.
Some would appear to over quote, while some others appear to under quote.
I'm just trying to give a honest opinion from someone who owns one in W.A and actually doesn't need to use it and I do have five electric bicycles and have had several electric scooters so comparing the efficiency is a bit of an interest to me.
Talking about the negatives isn't an attack, it is just a reflection of the reality, unless the charging infrastructure keeps up with the uptake, there will be a major train wreck IMO.
A bit like the electrical power generation over East, unless the alternatives arrive before the current generators pull the pin, there will be a lack of generating infrastructure.
If that happens instead of cash is king, it will be gas is king, everything is relative.
Workers wont charge every day, they will say, i'll wait till tomorrow it is going to be sunny and free.lol

What's The Real World Highway Range Of Today's Electric Cars? We Test To Find Out

We take the most popular electric cars, fully charge them, and then drive them at 70 mph to find out just how far they will go. Which one goes the furthest?

insideevs.com

The longest-range electric cars you can buy today | Autocar

Some of the cheapest EVs can crack 200 miles now – but the best can do double that

www.autocar.co.uk

What Car? Real Range: which electric car can go farthest in the real world?

With demand for electric models soaring, What Car? has developed a test that shows their Real Range between charges. Here we reveal the best and worst performers

www.whatcar.com

Ok, let me try and explain this point, (bear with me, I don’t drive a Kona, so I don’t know exactly what estimated ranges you are looking at but I will try and explain the different types that exist, as I said my Tesla has 3, that are all used for different purposes.


1. Standard EPA / brochure range - if you charge your car to 100% and it always quotes the same say 500km, and that ticks down so at 50% charge is quotes 250km and at 10% remaining 50km, this is you EPA, take it with a grain of salt, it’s not adjusting for your actual usage at all, it’s just basically a fuel gauge based on typical km’s per kWh based on the Lab test of the vehicle.

2. The Tesla (and maybe others) can also give you live predictions based on your last 50km of driving, basically a very simple formula of how many KWH you have left in your battery divided by the number of kWhs it took to drive the last 50 km’s, to give you an estimated range ( based on you actual past 50km performance.

3. The actual live prediction based on your gps destination, this one is the most accurate, it’s estimates how many kWh you will burn per kilometre based on live Data taking into consideration terrain, speed limits, weather, traffic, climate control settings etc


As I said all three of these will give you widely varying results, so it’s a matter of knowing what you are looking at and using the correct tool of the job.

But as I said I don’t know which of these in the Kona you are looking at, but if it number one you will always see a wide difference between what it says and what you experience.

 

[sptrawler]

Ok, but again that not what we were about, I specifically mentioned 250 km round trips with home charging, which I believed would be “most” people, (not everyone)

Again, that is great over East, but in sparsely populated areas like W.A, S.A and the N.T doing 200km every day isn't unusual.

For example even in Perth if 70% of the population live North of the river, where I worked at Kwinana a lot of the guys lived in Joondalup or further North and the they had to take the freeway through the centre of Perth every trip to work.



In W.A people travel a long way to work, be that for sub contracting or working a fair way from where they want to live, not many have the luxury of having 5 million people shopping in their local area so there is plenty of work.
It is hard for people who live in a cocoon, to understand how the other 20% of the people, who live in the other 95% of the country live.

 

[sptrawler]

Ok, let me try and explain this point, (bear with me, I don’t drive a Kona, so I don’t know exactly what estimated ranges you are looking at but I will try and explain the different types that exist, as I said my Tesla has 3, that are all used for different purposes.


1. Standard EPA / brochure range - if you charge your car to 100% and it always quotes the same say 500km, and that ticks down so at 50% charge is quotes 250km and at 10% remaining 50km, this is you EPA, take it with a grain of salt, it’s not adjusting for your actual usage at all, it’s just basically a fuel gauge based on typical km’s per kWh based on the Lab test of the vehicle.

2. The Tesla (and maybe others) can also give you live predictions based on your last 50km of driving, basically a very simple formula of how many KWH you have left in your battery divided by the number of kWhs it took to drive the last 50 km’s, to give you an estimated range ( based on you actual past 50km performance.

3. The actual live prediction based on your gps destination, this one is the most accurate, it’s estimates how many kWh you will burn per kilometre based on live Data taking into consideration terrain, speed limits, weather, traffic, climate control settings etc


As I said all three of these will give you widely varying results, so it’s a matter of knowing what you are looking at and using the correct tool of the job.

But as I said I don’t know which of these in the Kona you are looking at, but if it number one you will always see a wide difference between what it says and what you experience.

Please bear with me, I'm just trying to say, if you have to drive a 200km round trip every day, where there is no fast charging, it might not be for you at this point in time in W.A IMO.
Unless you live on the East coast where it wont be a problem.
It's a bit like a lot of cars including the Tesla don't have a spare, in W.A that really doesn't work, there are a lot of areas even in the SW corner where there is no mobile reception, so you leave the car and go with the good samaritan and your puncture, when you get back the only tyre you have is the one you got repaired. The rest of the car is ransacked, I don't jest, I've seen it over and over.
We obviously live in a different world, which is fine, I love visiting yours.
By the way, thanks for explaining how range algorithms work, I have an electrical background, but thanks for the heads up.
The accuracy of the GOM (Guess O Meter), is very much dependent on the fudge factor the manufacturer wants to put into the algorithm, to get the range they want to sell.
It's a bit of a case of the converted, preaching to the converted, just one isn't obsessed.

 

[mullokintyre]

Where are those Angels, hope they are not dancing on a pin.
Mick

 

[JohnDe]

Yes I know, we are the same same, so why don't you sell the ICE car?

I have explained the reason, a few times, sentimentality I suppose. I will never sell my VF SSV Ute, I purchased it new, and I believe it is a magnificent example of Holden's last.

The VF SSV actually drives quite well, and fuel consumption is not too bad, using a cylinder deactivation system that brings the V8 down to 4 when cruising. Nice comfortable leather interior, premium sound system, good suspension, only a two-seater but that's all we need these days.

I took it away only last week, and I drive it every day to and from my business. In a few weeks it will rest while we take the Tesla on a 2000km drive across to a semi-remote and beautiful part of Australia.

 

[JohnDe]

Again, that is great over East, but in sparsely populated areas like W.A, S.A and the N.T doing 200km every day isn't unusual.

For example even in Perth if 70% of the population live North of the river, where I worked at Kwinana a lot of the guys lived in Joondalup or further North and the they had to take the freeway through the centre of Perth every trip to work.

View attachment 155030

In W.A people travel a long way to work, be that for sub contracting or working a fair way from where they want to live, not many have the luxury of having 5 million people shopping in their local area so there is plenty of work.
It is hard for people who live in a cocoon, to understand how the other 20% of the people, who live in the other 95% of the country live.

Maybe I've missed something I don't see the problem, your example is not a lot of km's (for my EV, and I don't live in Victoria or NSW) and most current EVs should be able to do it.

Are you saying that your EV would struggle to travel 64km to work and 64 km home and be able to get enough charge in overnight to continue driving like that for the week?

 

[JohnDe]

Jezus I love the E.V, I'm just trying to keep it in context, why not come over to W.A with your missus and rent an E.V and do a State adventure tour, then do the same in the Northern Territory and head down to Adelaide
It is like listening to guys who own a brothel, telling everyone how easy it is to get a girlfriend, of course when you have $hit loads of supply, charging isn't a worry.
My mate who retired about 6 months ago, used to drive 200km round trip every day for work, many of the guys I worked with did the same, why would you buy a $60,000 EV car that has a decent range, so that if you have a power failure or something trips you can't get to work?
When you could buy exactly the same ICE car for $35k and have no issues? Apart from smugness, or because you can, why would you put yourself under the increased pressure and pay more to do so?
By the way my wife has never filled the ICE cars we've owned or the E.V, I'm a sensitive new aged guy from the 70's.

WA actually has more charging outlets than my state.

A 200km round trip for work is quite rare, but I have done that on several occasions with my Tesla. Drove from my holiday home to work and back again, just under 200km each way. Maybe I am lucky to be able to plug in at work, but the point is that most people do not do that and so the majority of people driving to work can use an EV to do it safely.

PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge

Find EV charging stations with PlugShare, the most complete map of electric vehicle charging stations in the world!Charging tips reviews and photos from the EV community.

www.plugshare.com

 

[sptrawler]

I give up, let's move on.

 

[JohnDe]

When you could buy exactly the same ICE car for $35k and have no issues? Apart from smugness, or because you can, why would you put yourself under the increased pressure and pay more to do so?
By the way my wife has never filled the ICE cars we've owned or the E.V, I'm a sensitive new aged guy from the 70's.

Yes, pricing is one that is definitely worth considering. $35,000 for a new ICEV compared to $45,000 for an EV is a lot of difference. Though there is also the maintenance and fuel savings to consider, but I get your point.

My wife is fiercely Independant, she will always do her own work, unless I happen to be around

 

[Value Collector]

Please bear with me, I'm just trying to say, if you have to drive a 200km round trip every day, where there is no fast charging, it might not be for you at this point in time in W.A IMO.

Ok, if you aren't comfortable driving your 500km range car for 200km thats a personal thing I guess. (in your example the distance is 164km round trip, Even if there was chargers available people aren't going to be using them for that commute)

----------------------

But, did you read through the various different range predictions I said cars used?

Which one of the 3 I mentioned is your Kona that you are looking at?

 

[JohnDe]

Tesla's new Motor & Final Drive unit -

 

[Joe90]

They are a nightmare for breaking down.

Agreed, they (BMWs) are not suitable toys for the technically illiterate. And anything post 2011 or so are mere tinsel and rice paper. One needs to be adept with the spanners, laptop, and ISTA. My son and I own a 25 year old E36 328i manual. It is fed on a regular diet of FPC Euro. Completely original and is still a joy to drive. It will receive a complete front and rear suspension rebuild this winter.

 

[Joe90]

Having put my head on the block by outing myself as an EV cynic, I though I might justify that by summarising and presenting some research on embodied energy for EVs and ICE vehicles. Funnily enough a search of this EV thread produces not a single hit on the topic. After some reading (and lacking energy and resolve) I will instead post a link to a useful article for the education of those who are not familiar with the concept of embodied energy when applied to EV and ICE vehicles.

From Wikipedia...
Embodied energy is the sum of all the energy required to produce any goods or services, considered as if that energy was incorporated or 'embodied' in the product itself. The concept can be useful in determining the effectiveness of energy-producing or energy saving devices, or the "real" replacement cost of a building, and, because energy-inputs usually entail greenhouse gas emissions, in deciding whether a product contributes to or mitigates global warming. One fundamental purpose for measuring this quantity is to compare the amount of energy produced or saved by the product in question to the amount of energy consumed in producing it.

Embodied energy is an accounting method which aims to find the sum total of the energy necessary for an entire product lifecycle. Determining what constitutes this lifecycle includes assessing the relevance and extent of energy into raw material extraction, transport, manufacture, assembly, installation, disassembly, deconstruction and/or decomposition as well as human and secondary resources.

And here is the link to an excellent article on embodied energy assessment comparing EV and ICE vehicles.
https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/22/the-tough-calculus-of-emissions-and-the-future-of-evs/

 

[Value Collector]

Having put my head on the block by outing myself as an EV cynic, I though I might justify that by summarising and presenting some research on embodied energy for EVs and ICE vehicles. Funnily enough a search of this EV thread produces not a single hit on the topic. After some reading (and lacking energy and resolve) I will instead post a link to a useful article for the education of those who are not familiar with the concept of embodied energy when applied to EV and ICE vehicles.

From Wikipedia...
Embodied energy is the sum of all the energy required to produce any goods or services, considered as if that energy was incorporated or 'embodied' in the product itself. The concept can be useful in determining the effectiveness of energy-producing or energy saving devices, or the "real" replacement cost of a building, and, because energy-inputs usually entail greenhouse gas emissions, in deciding whether a product contributes to or mitigates global warming. One fundamental purpose for measuring this quantity is to compare the amount of energy produced or saved by the product in question to the amount of energy consumed in producing it.

Embodied energy is an accounting method which aims to find the sum total of the energy necessary for an entire product lifecycle. Determining what constitutes this lifecycle includes assessing the relevance and extent of energy into raw material extraction, transport, manufacture, assembly, installation, disassembly, deconstruction and/or decomposition as well as human and secondary resources.

And here is the link to an excellent article on embodied energy assessment comparing EV and ICE vehicles.
https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/22/the-tough-calculus-of-emissions-and-the-future-of-evs/

We actually have routinely debated that exact topic, on this thread over the years, it seems every 6 months some one new brings it up.

This video discusses the topic, and has links to the scientific studies in the description.

Long story short, Ev’s have a higher impact to manufacture, but rapidly earn that back by having much lower energy inputs and cleaner sources of energy over its life.

If you charge EV’s using 100% coal they are about on par with Petrol cars, but the higher the mix of renewable electricity and lower emission fuels like natural gas, they better evs are. in Australia we use quite a bit of non coal generation, and coal is declining, so EV’s are a good option here.

 

[qldfrog]

Having put my head on the block by outing myself as an EV cynic, I though I might justify that by summarising and presenting some research on embodied energy for EVs and ICE vehicles. Funnily enough a search of this EV thread produces not a single hit on the topic. After some reading (and lacking energy and resolve) I will instead post a link to a useful article for the education of those who are not familiar with the concept of embodied energy when applied to EV and ICE vehicles.

From Wikipedia...
Embodied energy is the sum of all the energy required to produce any goods or services, considered as if that energy was incorporated or 'embodied' in the product itself. The concept can be useful in determining the effectiveness of energy-producing or energy saving devices, or the "real" replacement cost of a building, and, because energy-inputs usually entail greenhouse gas emissions, in deciding whether a product contributes to or mitigates global warming. One fundamental purpose for measuring this quantity is to compare the amount of energy produced or saved by the product in question to the amount of energy consumed in producing it.

Embodied energy is an accounting method which aims to find the sum total of the energy necessary for an entire product lifecycle. Determining what constitutes this lifecycle includes assessing the relevance and extent of energy into raw material extraction, transport, manufacture, assembly, installation, disassembly, deconstruction and/or decomposition as well as human and secondary resources.

And here is the link to an excellent article on embodied energy assessment comparing EV and ICE vehicles.
https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/22/the-tough-calculus-of-emissions-and-the-future-of-evs/

never go against a narrative, many here are saving the planet by driving teslas!
With enough self persuasion , they probably believe it.
I am still considering EVs but in not way am I hared xxx enough to believe this does the planet any good:
it is using nice technologies, will be mandated..aka no choice and has great advantages in term of power delivery and free fuel if you use it around the home with preexisting solar installed going to waste.I would not even consider it if I was planning to use it while having to charge on the way.
I do not know where these people talking about the hassle of filling up on petrol live, but in our case I only fill up on one of the 3 discount fuel stations which are on our coffee shopping route, never queue or need to detour..and filling up is really a matter of a couple of minutes at most, truly,
being diesel, I can often use high flow and , being diesel again, most weeks I just do not bother as range is quite impressive and I do not even need to top up
My better half is not sold at all with EV, we saw the MG EV and I am quite keen on the BYD but it seems nearly impossible to trade her MX5 for these ..and i understand...
we got a setback in our final place purchase with contract collapse and so the full off grid solar and battery plan got delayed again so the EV purchase...

 

[JohnDe]

never go against a narrative, many here are saving the planet by driving teslas!
With enough self persuasion , they probably believe it.
I am still considering EVs but in not way am I hared xxx enough to believe this does the planet any good:
it is using nice technologies, will be mandated..aka no choice and has great advantages in term of power delivery and free fuel if you use it around the home with preexisting solar installed going to waste.I would not even consider it if I was planning to use it while having to charge on the way.
I do not know where these people talking about the hassle of filling up on petrol live, but in our case I only fill up on one of the 3 discount fuel stations which are on our coffee shopping route, never queue or need to detour..and filling up is really a matter of a couple of minutes at most, truly,
being diesel, I can often use high flow and , being diesel again, most weeks I just do not bother as range is quite impressive and I do not even need to top up
My better half is not sold at all with EV, we saw the MG EV and I am quite keen on the BYD but it seems nearly impossible to trade her MX5 for these ..and i understand...
we got a setback in our final place purchase with contract collapse and so the full off grid solar and battery plan got delayed again so the EV purchase...

Oh dear, there you go again. For the umpteenth time, I did not buy a Tesla to 'save the planet". I have always only purchased cars that have something that awaken my interest, that has included V8's, an FJ55 that I converted to a V8, BMW, a Turbocharged Volvo 740 Estate, an XC ute, Territory, VF SSV and a few others in-between.

I purchased the Tesla because I liked the tech and I wanted to learn about what was coming. The acceleration was a bonus, just like the self-driving AP which makes long distance driving an extremely safe pleasure. Oh, and the fuel savings is also a great.

An EV is not for everyone, just like a V8 is not for everyone. I can tell that you would not be happy owning an EV, my suggestion is that you stick with what you have, or maybe look at the hybrids. Life is too short to have regrets.

 

[mullokintyre]

never go against a narrative, many here are saving the planet by driving teslas!
With enough self persuasion , they probably believe it.
I am still considering EVs but in not way am I hared xxx enough to believe this does the planet any good:
it is using nice technologies, will be mandated..aka no choice and has great advantages in term of power delivery and free fuel if you use it around the home with preexisting solar installed going to waste.I would not even consider it if I was planning to use it while having to charge on the way.
I do not know where these people talking about the hassle of filling up on petrol live, but in our case I only fill up on one of the 3 discount fuel stations which are on our coffee shopping route, never queue or need to detour..and filling up is really a matter of a couple of minutes at most, truly,
being diesel, I can often use high flow and , being diesel again, most weeks I just do not bother as range is quite impressive and I do not even need to top up
My better half is not sold at all with EV, we saw the MG EV and I am quite keen on the BYD but it seems nearly impossible to trade her MX5 for these ..and i understand...
we got a setback in our final place purchase with contract collapse and so the full off grid solar and battery plan got delayed again so the EV purchase...

One of the things I have noticed is how quickly the solar output levels deterirates on overcast days, and we haven't even hit winter yet.
If I was going full off grid, I would probably want to double everything I have in terms of panels and battery, especially if you plan to to charge an EV at home.Our system is more than adequate to cover the usage of between 11 to 20 KW a day, but vringing in an EV that may take 40 or more KWhrs to charge is a whole new ball game.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

never go against a narrative, many here are saving the planet by driving teslas!
With enough self persuasion , they probably believe it.
I am still considering EVs but in not way am I hared xxx enough to believe this does the planet any good:
it is using nice technologies, will be mandated..aka no choice and has great advantages in term of power delivery and free fuel if you use it around the home with preexisting solar installed going to waste.I would not even consider it if I was planning to use it while having to charge on the way.
I do not know where these people talking about the hassle of filling up on petrol live, but in our case I only fill up on one of the 3 discount fuel stations which are on our coffee shopping route, never queue or need to detour..and filling up is really a matter of a couple of minutes at most, truly,
being diesel, I can often use high flow and , being diesel again, most weeks I just do not bother as range is quite impressive and I do not even need to top up
My better half is not sold at all with EV, we saw the MG EV and I am quite keen on the BYD but it seems nearly impossible to trade her MX5 for these ..and i understand...
we got a setback in our final place purchase with contract collapse and so the full off grid solar and battery plan got delayed again so the EV purchase...

As SP said, you don’t realise what a perk charging in your garage is until you actually have an EV and no longer need to go to the fuel station. You will be able to just drive passed the fuel station and go straight to the coffee shop. I don’t know about you but I have better things to do with 10mins than make unnecessary stops at petrol stations.

I am not sure why you can’t see that charging using your solar, rather than filling up using oil is better better for the environment, maybe you are one of those guys that doesn’t believe in climate change or air pollution.