Electric cars?

[Value Collector]

Does anyone else think that maybe a degree of government coordination is required to standardise charging outlets or is this just one of those things the government should stay out of and let develope on its own ?

if you need, want or can drive 10 hours straight on the highway good luck to you & everyone around you.

My wife and I stopped travelling to get from one place to another as fast as possible when we were much younger. Now we travel to to take in the sights & experience the local areas we drive through, always stopping after about 4 hours for a stroll through a town and maybe a coffee or snack and a chat. My other car is capable of 900+ kilometers on a tank, we still stop every 4 or 5 hours. We don’t rush anymore.

Another benefit of the Tesla is no service costs. 28,000km so far an $0 in servicing.

View attachment 152348

40,000km + on mine so far, $0 spent on service so far.

 

[Value Collector]

I think the reality is that the Chinese are producing a well sorted urban electric car. If Tesla doesn't produce a competitive product at that price point they will lose market share.

From my memory Musk was always promoting the idea of an affordable EV ie around 20-25K. In theory we should be seeing this unit in production now but... not yet.

The smaller Tesla is also the one that they hope to mass produce to populate their robo taxi network when that is viable.

Must has thrown around a few ideas, which include perhaps not selling the cheaper car, but only leasing them, and then at the end of the 3 year lease reclaiming them and converting them into autonomous Uber style robo taxi network.

There are lots of possible options and business models, the discussion about whether Tesla can compete on price with cheaper brands might prove entirely obsolete in 5 years, who knows.

 

[mullokintyre]

According to Zero hedge , for the cheaper end of the market, ICE engined cars are cheaper to fuel up than the equivalent electric versions.

The cost to fuel electric vehicles in the United States is higher than gas-powered cars for the first time in 18 months, a consulting company said.

“In Q4 2022, typical mid-priced ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) car drivers paid about $11.29 to fuel their vehicles for 100 miles of driving. That cost was around $0.31 cheaper than the amount paid by mid-priced EV drivers charging mostly at home, and over $3 less than the cost borne by comparable EV drivers charging commercially,” Anderson Economic Group (AEG) said in an analysis.
However, luxury EVs still enjoy a cost advantage against their gas-powered counterparts.

It costs luxury EV owners $12.4 to drive every 100 miles on average if they charge their cars mostly at home or $15.95 if they charge their cars mostly at commercial charger stations in the 4th quarter of 2022.

Meanwhile, the fuel costs for luxury gas-powered cars are $19.96 per 100 miles on average.

AEG is a consulting firm based in Michigan that offers research and consulting in economics, valuation, market analysis, and public policy, according to the company’s website.

The fuel costs in the analysis are based on real-world U.S. driving conditions including the cost of underlying energy, state taxes charged for road maintenance, the cost of operating a pump or charger, and the cost to drive to a fueling station, AEG said.

Unfortunately I could not get access to the original study they quote as its paywalled.
One of the problems with such a study is it is important to know which state did they use for their analysis? Petrol and diesel vary enormously between states, with California being the highest, and Texas being the lowest.
The cost of Electricity also varies between states and between utility companies.
It would be a different story here in OZ, but if the cost of electricity starts to outpace petrol and diesel, we might get to the same point.
Mick

 

[qldfrog]

According to Zero hedge , for the cheaper end of the market, ICE engined cars are cheaper to fuel up than the equivalent electric versions.

Unfortunately I could not get access to the original study they quote as its paywalled.
One of the problems with such a study is it is important to know which state did they use for their analysis? Petrol and diesel vary enormously between states, with California being the highest, and Texas being the lowest.
The cost of Electricity also varies between states and between utility companies.
It would be a different story here in OZ, but if the cost of electricity starts to outpace petrol and diesel, we might get to the same point.
Mick

Does just make matter worse,i always do my comparison with a 0 cost for EV charging considering free home solar PV energy..even if this is not actually really free....if only for Capex .
Wait till the gov charge a special EV rego to make it "fair" aka compensate the loss of petroleum taxes.
You do not buy an EV to save..unless maybe taxis etc doing a lot of KMs. Per day.but then can EV really do a lot of km a day?

 

[JohnDe]

Does just make matter worse,i always do my comparison with a 0 cost for EV charging considering free home solar PV energy..even if this is not actually really free....if only for Capex .
Wait till the gov charge a special EV rego to make it "fair" aka compensate the loss of petroleum taxes.
You do not buy an EV to save..unless maybe taxis etc doing a lot of KMs. Per day.but then can EV really do a lot of km a day?

Like choosing an investment, individual circumstances should be taken into account.

I have owned an EV since July 2021, it has traveled 28,000km. From March 2022 to February 2023, it has saved me $1600 in fuel costs. I have also saved on maintenance costs; no engine oil & filter changes, no air filter, no service cost at all.
The braking system has an estimated minimum life of 200,000km, another saving.
In my state, vehicle registration is charged by the number of cylinders. An EV has no cylinders and the yearly registration is cheaper than a 4 cylinder equivalent car.
Having an EV saves time, no stress stopping at a petrol station waiting in a coffee line to pay the bill. I go home & plug in, charging the car while I sleep.

 

[basilio]

This story is big news. Offers a detailed analysis of Toyota and its very late decision to go electric. It doesn't look good for Toyota. Well worth a read. Toyota currently has $170B of corporate debt. Be interesting to see who is carrying this paper.

I wonder if this scenario will be repeated amongst other current car manufacturers ?

Toyota faces disaster unless new CEO performs miracle pivot to electric vehicles​

• January 30, 2023
• No comments
• 6 minute read
• Daniel Bleakley

Source: Toyota.


The world’s largest automaker made two major announcements last week which signal that it finally recognises that the future is electric. But it may be too little too late for the company that revolutionised manufacturing half a century ago.

Toyota faces disaster unless new CEO performs miracle pivot to electric vehicles

Toyota will need a record breaking strategy if it's going to survive the electric vehicle revolution.

thedriven.io

 

[sptrawler]

Like choosing an investment, individual circumstances should be taken into account.

I have owned an EV since July 2021, it has traveled 28,000km. From March 2022 to February 2023, it has saved me $1600 in fuel costs. I have also saved on maintenance costs; no engine oil & filter changes, no air filter, no service cost at all.
The braking system has an estimated minimum life of 200,000km, another saving.
In my state, vehicle registration is charged by the number of cylinders. An EV has no cylinders and the yearly registration is cheaper than a 4 cylinder equivalent car.
Having an EV saves time, no stress stopping at a petrol station waiting in a coffee line to pay the bill. I go home & plug in, charging the car while I sleep.

I agree with both yourself and the frog, the cost difference between the E.V and the equivalent ICE car will probably never be recouped, but the fact you haven't got your hand in your pocket at the petrol station every week is much more convenient IMO.
I've been driving the Kona since early November 2022 and out of pocket charging at public infrastructure is still $2.28.

 

[JohnDe]

I agree with both yourself and the frog, the cost difference between the E.V and the equivalent ICE car will probably never be recouped...

True, but how many people compare the cost between different brands and work out the savings?

When I purchased my VF SS Ute there were 3 options: SS, SS-V, and SS-V Redline. I looked at the pricing, but it wasn't the pricing that helped me choose. I chose the SS-V because I wanted the model with the bigger wheels, leather interior, SatNav and Premium sound. The SS-V Redline had all that and more, but it also had stiffer suspension and lower profile tyres, I almost went with this mode but did not want a stiff ride.

Not once did I think about recouping the cost difference.

One thing that I do look at is the cost of maintenance. I would never purchase a Chrysler because they are one of the highest cost cars to maintain and repair.

 

[sptrawler]

True, but how many people compare the cost between different brands and work out the savings?

When I purchased my VF SS Ute there were 3 options: SS, SS-V, and SS-V Redline. I looked at the pricing, but it wasn't the pricing that helped me choose. I chose the SS-V because I wanted the model with the bigger wheels, leather interior, SatNav and Premium sound. The SS-V Redline had all that and more, but it also had stiffer suspension and lower profile tyres, I almost went with this mode but did not want a stiff ride.

Not once did I think about recouping the cost difference.

One thing that I do look at is the cost of maintenance. I would never purchase a Chrysler because they are one of the highest cost cars to maintain and repair.

I agree 100%, when the Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland got to 90,000km last year, I had 4 choices.
Replace with another ICE car, replace with a PHEV, replace with an E.V or run the Jeep into the ground.
Price wasn't the major factor, functionality was.

I chose the Kona E.V because, the change over price was acceptable, the range on the one I chose was acceptable and in 5 years time I will give it to the daughter and parts for that model are cheap. So it wont cost me a fortune to keep it going for her.

The reason I didn't pick the PHEV was, it didn't make sense to add the cost of maintaining an ICE car with the EV, also if they make it more and more costly to own an ICE car that cost will hit PHEV's also. Add to that, not only do you have to pay for fuel, but someone is eventually going to charge a distance tax on the EV component.

The reason I didn't want to run the Jeep into the ground was, one it was getting maintenance issues even though I did the maintenance myself and secondly they gave me mid $30k trade in so the change over wasn't astronomical.

As I said a year ago when I ordered the Kona, the trade in value of ICE vehicles will fall off a cliff, when the supply issues with E.V's is overcome, so it seemed like a great opportunity to get maximum value out of the Jeep.
But IMO it isn't a one size fits all, EV's will get cheaper and not everyone can afford the luxury or inconvenience of owning one yet, so it isn't a case of people who buy an ICE car are crazy.

 

[basilio]

The big deal (IMV) on getting EVs into the market place will be large scale purchases by Governments departments. When these cars are rolled over at the end of the lease they pass into the used car market and will ensure a supply of better value EV cars in the community.

I think a 4 year cost of ownership comparison analysis between current ICE purchases and an EV could now show a positive figure for an EV. This would be enhanced if vehicles were recharged at base in the evenings on cheap off peak electricity tariffs and/or stored PV energy. For example a hospital could have a 1 mwh battery bank taking power from solar PV on the hospital roof plus power from local wind/solar installations. From a political POV there would also be an incentive to at least trial such an operation in a couple of localities to work out the logistics and prove the costings.

 

[Value Collector]

According to Zero hedge , for the cheaper end of the market, ICE engined cars are cheaper to fuel up than the equivalent electric versions.

Unfortunately I could not get access to the original study they quote as its paywalled.
One of the problems with such a study is it is important to know which state did they use for their analysis? Petrol and diesel vary enormously between states, with California being the highest, and Texas being the lowest.
The cost of Electricity also varies between states and between utility companies.
It would be a different story here in OZ, but if the cost of electricity starts to outpace petrol and diesel, we might get to the same point.
Mick

Yeah, I am not sure I would trust those numbers, I know people in the USA whose off peak rate for electricity is about 3cents / KWH, that means it costs about $1.50 to charge a model 3 to 100%, that would by you less than half a gallon of fuel, that wouldn’t get you far.

 

[mullokintyre]

Yeah, I am not sure I would trust those numbers, I know people in the USA whose off peak rate for electricity is about 3cents / KWH, that means it costs about $1.50 to charge a model 3 to 100%, that would by you less than half a gallon of fuel, that wouldn’t get you far.

A single point verifcation. Yeah, well given that according to Global petrol Prices , the Average price of electricty is17.5 cents per KWH, there must be a few places significantly higher than your 3 cents per KWH. So, I have no doubt they could find a place somewhere, at a particular time, when the price is sufficiently high to make their price comparison.
On a slightly different note, the newly installed "fast" charger we have is integrated into the installed home solar system whereby one can select that any excess solar power is fed into the car charger, rather than into the grid. A much better idea than feeding back into the grid for the paltry return.
When there is not a lit of sun around, as was the case on Sunday, there would be virtually nothing going into charging, but it is a useful feature.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

A single point verifcation. Yeah, well given that according to Global petrol Prices , the Average price of electricty is17.5 cents per KWH, there must be a few places significantly higher than your 3 cents per KWH. So, I have no doubt they could find a place somewhere, at a particular time, when the price is sufficiently high to make their price comparison.
On a slightly different note, the newly installed "fast" charger we have is integrated into the installed home solar system whereby one can select that any excess solar power is fed into the car charger, rather than into the grid. A much better idea than feeding back into the grid for the paltry return.
When there is not a lit of sun around, as was the case on Sunday, there would be virtually nothing going into charging, but it is a useful feature.
Mick

Average prices are always going to be more expensive than off-peak, but off course those that care about the cost of their refuelling will be refueling during off peak times, or when they have some other advantage like using solar etc.

Yep, I like the idea of smart chargers for your solar, that’s just another example of ways you can make sure you are charging well below the average price.

 

[sptrawler]

Average prices are always going to be more expensive than off-peak, but off course those that care about the cost of their refuelling will be refueling during off peak times, or when they have some other advantage like using solar etc.

Yep, I like the idea of smart chargers for your solar, that’s just another example of ways you can make sure you are charging well below the average price.

I'm more your Fred Flintstone sort of guy, I have this charger:

KWIK Portable Type 2 Charger | 32 Amp | 7kW - EVSE Australia

Portable Type 2 Single Phase EV Charger - 7kW 32 Amp. Compact, Mobile, & Convenient. Upgrade to a single phase compact portable charger today.

evse.com.au

So I just select the appropriate charge rate, for where I'm charging, at one house I have 6kW of solar, at the other 3kW.
When I'm not using that, the local shopping center has a couple of free 7kW chargers, so I avail myself of them when we go shopping, go to lunch or just want a cheap top up.

So I've done 4,200km in three months of ownership and total cost $2.28, which was when I tried out the chargefox PAYG app. ?
The Jeep would have already cost me a $1,000 extra in fuel, then add an oil change, I used to change the oil every 5k and filter every 10k.
I do about 20,000km per year, so if I keep the same trend going, I think I will save about $20k on servicing and fuel cost as opposed to keeping the Jeep.

Happy days.

 

[SirRumpole]

Quite a few interesting hybrids coming on to the market now from Mazda (CX-90), Nissan (xTrail), Toyota (RAV4) and quite a few other makers.

Could be an alternative for those with range anxiety.

 

[sptrawler]

Quite a few interesting hybrids coming on to the market now from Mazda (CX-90), Nissan (xTrail), Toyota (RAV4) and quite a few other makers.

Could be an alternative for those with range anxiety.

Yes the pure hybrids like the RAV4 basically have a small battery, that charges from regen braking and also when you are using the ICE motor, but you can't charge them externally.
So basically you just get a better fuel consumption, because the car uses the small battery and electric motor to start you moving etc.
It is probably like everything else and depends on personal circumstances, the type of driving people do and if the difference in cost between ICE and hybrid makes it worth the extra outlay.
For the Toorak taxi probably, for the farmer driving into town for groceries once a week, probably not.
Then you have to weigh up the difference between hybrid and plug in hybrid (PHEV)
Take for example a farmer off grid who lives 20km out of town, if they had the Outlander PHEV with the 20kW/hr battery and also has vehicle to load ability, it is able to drive about 80km on battery only.
The farmer has it charging from the off grid system, goes into town and back on the battery, then recharges it and it can assist running the house if required.
The farmer would only require the ICE on extended trips, so it might be a great option.

 

[qldfrog]

Like choosing an investment, individual circumstances should be taken into account.

I have owned an EV since July 2021, it has traveled 28,000km. From March 2022 to February 2023, it has saved me $1600 in fuel costs. I have also saved on maintenance costs; no engine oil & filter changes, no air filter, no service cost at all.
The braking system has an estimated minimum life of 200,000km, another saving.
In my state, vehicle registration is charged by the number of cylinders. An EV has no cylinders and the yearly registration is cheaper than a 4 cylinder equivalent car.
Having an EV saves time, no stress stopping at a petrol station waiting in a coffee line to pay the bill. I go home & plug in, charging the car while I sleep.

View attachment 152413

We all agree here but fact is,vhaving an EV is a costly personal choice and you will agree that even these thousands of dollars savings will never recoup the initial extra cost.
So indeed buy an EV if you want but do not buy it as an investment or it is a very inferior one , but as a lifestyle choice.
It can also be a decision to spend more money now than later for tax reasons etc.
But facts remain it is not a savings based choice.
But to each their own
People pay for metallic paint, in Tesla or Mercs adding 1000s and this is not an economic choice for most....
Btw @JohnDe how much was the cost of your home charger?
Genuinely interested as I usually cost it at roughly one year of EV savings (petrol,service and rego savings)

 

[qldfrog]

Yes the pure hybrids like the RAV4 basically have a small battery, that charges from regen braking and also when you are using the ICE motor, but you can't charge them externally.
So basically you just get a better fuel consumption, because the car uses the small battery and electric motor to start you moving etc.
It is probably like everything else and depends on personal circumstances, the type of driving people do and if the difference in cost between ICE and hybrid makes it worth the extra outlay.
For the Toorak taxi probably, for the farmer driving into town for groceries once a week, probably not.
Then you have to weigh up the difference between hybrid and plug in hybrid (PHEV)
Take for example a farmer off grid who lives 20km out of town, if they had the Outlander PHEV with the 20kW/hr battery and also has vehicle to load ability, it is able to drive about 80km on battery only.
The farmer has it charging from the off grid system, goes into town and back on the battery, then recharges it and it can assist running the house if required.
The farmer would only require the ICE on extended trips, so it might be a great option.

And that would be ideal technologically for farmer frog...but will probably be hit on both side by legislations

 

[Value Collector]

We all agree here but fact is,vhaving an EV is a costly personal choice and you will agree that even these thousands of dollars savings will never recoup the initial extra cost.

I don’t agree, I can easily see savings that would more than recoup the added cost over its life.

Based on my calculations the savings in both fuel and lower maintenance more than offset the cost a petrol or diesel, not to mention the time savings of not having to drop into petrol stations all the time.

 

[mullokintyre]

We all agree here but fact is,vhaving an EV is a costly personal choice and you will agree that even these thousands of dollars savings will never recoup the initial extra cost.
So indeed buy an EV if you want but do not buy it as an investment or it is a very inferior one , but as a lifestyle choice.
It can also be a decision to spend more money now than later for tax reasons etc.
But facts remain it is not a savings based choice.
But to each their own
People pay for metallic paint, in Tesla or Mercs adding 1000s and this is not an economic choice for most....
Btw @JohnDe how much was the cost of your home charger?
Genuinely interested as I usually cost it at roughly one year of EV savings (petrol,service and rego savings)

No one in their right mind would buy a car as an investment, they will always be an expensed item in the balance sheet.
Sure people will point to half million dollar phase 111 Falcon GTHO, but you have to buy them and put them on blocks for ever.
You would likely be better off if you had bought the equivalent amount of BHP shares and kept them the same time.
The capital cost of the BYD was pretty much the same if we upgraded the wifes CX5.
The CX5 was the top of the range with AWD, heated and cooled seats, real leather, climate control blah blah blah.
The BYD is FWD rather than AWD, and does not have heated or cooled seats, but does have all the other blah blah blah stuff.
But I very much doubt we will recover the capital cost or opportunity cost of this car or any other car I have ever bought.
Mick