Electric cars?

[sptrawler]

I hear & read that terminology 'woke' quite a lot lately. I'm not sure what it means, I'm not even sure that those that use it know.

past participle: awoken

1. stop sleeping; wake from sleep.
   "she awoke to find the streets covered in snow"
   
   Similar:
   wake (up), awaken, stir, come to, come round, bestir oneself, show signs of life

Maybe it means that people are waking up from having the wool pulled over their eyes by the boomer generation.

Just another nice name, the self opinionated, self obsessed, selfie taking, younger generation have given themselves. ?

It's hard to find a name that covers high energy using, social media addicted, gadget endowed, inwardly focused individual, that doesn't sound hypocritical. So 'woke' it was.

 

[JohnDe]

Just thinking how much electricity is needed to re-charge such a large battery bank. Is it power saving on one hand and using more to charge the batteries.

I think that it is future planning and future proofing.

How much fuel grade oil is there under the Australian landscape? I've been told that we are so poor in oil that we need to import it.

Renewables will take some time to ramp up, but it will happen. I doubt that we will ever be free of oil, but at least we will not be held hostage by oil rich nations.

The ship, which will carry 2100 passengers and 226 vehicles between Argentina and Uruguay, was originally designed to run on liquefied natural gas (LNG).

But Mr Clifford said its future owner had second thoughts about using the fuel due to environmental concerns and public perception.

"In the owner's words, in three years time LNG will not be very popular – it will be like a dead horse," he said.

Aust firm building biggest electric ferry

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[sptrawler]

Interesting.

Australia's SEA in $1 billion deal to electrify 8,500 Hilux and Landcruisers for miners

Australia's SEA says deal to convert 8,500 Toyota Hilux and Landcruiser vehicles to fully electric in Australia is the biggest of its type in the world.

thedriven.io

 

[Smurf1976]

But the thought that occurs to me will the re-charging of the battery bank come from a diesel or coal fired power station?

In the context of the ship being built for export, neither.

Uruguay obtains about 59% of its electricity from hydro, 23% wind, 14% biomass and 1% solar with 3% from thermal generation fired with oil or gas depending on price and availability at the time.

Argentina production by source is about 61% gas, 13% hydro, 10% wind, 7% nuclear, 5% oil, 2% coal and 1% other renewables (solar, biomass etc).

Those figures will evolve over time, quite rapidly in Argentina's case since they're investing heavily into wind energy so as to reduce the use of expensive gas and oil.

So the use of oil isn't zero but it's low no matter which end of the trip (or both) it's recharged.

 

[farmerge]

In the context of the ship being built for export, neither.

Uruguay obtains about 59% of its electricity from hydro, 23% wind, 14% biomass and 1% solar with 3% from thermal generation fired with oil or gas depending on price and availability at the time.

Argentina production by source is about 61% gas, 13% hydro, 10% wind, 7% nuclear, 5% oil, 2% coal and 1% other renewables (solar, biomass etc).

Those figures will evolve over time, quite rapidly in Argentina's case since they're investing heavily into wind energy so as to reduce the use of expensive gas and oil.

So the use of oil isn't zero but it's low no matter which end of the trip (or both) it's recharged.

And we sell our gas for a pittance while others are way out in front with power generation. Appears that the powers that be, have their collective fingers elsewhere, while we generously donate out natural resources.

 

[JohnDe]

Kia is not happy.

Tesla's Price Cuts Are "Dangerous" For Residual Values: Kia UK Boss​

Paul Philpott says Kia won't rush to match Tesla's heavy discounts of up to £8,000 in the UK.​

Tesla's radical move to cut prices massively in the US, China and Europe may be imitated by other EV startups like XPeng and Aito, but some of the legacy carmakers don't seem to keen on the idea.

Kia, for instance, does not see that as a good thing because it could have "dangerous" implications for residual values in the longer term. At least that's the opinion voiced by Kia UK president and CEO Paul Philpott to Autocar.
In what is very likely a strategy directed from the higher echelons of parent company Hyundai Motor Group, Kia UK's boss said the company won't rush to match Tesla's heavy discounts of up to £8,000. Philpott warned that such a "blunt" action could inflict significant damage on the residual values of Kia electric vehicles.

"It's a pretty dangerous strategy to reduce prices, and we have a lot of other tools at our disposal that we would employ before we did that," the executive said. He explained that controlling supply, offering finance support or looking at tactical offerings would be ways to protect existing customers.

Philpott added that undermining residual values means there will be no saving for lease customers. He also said it will be interesting to see how the fleet buyers respond to this "complicated situation."

Another factor that needs to be taken seriously into account is customer dissatisfaction. "And then you have to contend with the uproar of the people who bought at the higher price before you made the reduction, which in Tesla's case is almost 16,000 in the UK," Philpott said.

Kia UK has an eight-month waiting list for the Kia Niro EV and 12-month waiting list for the Kia EV6. The carmaker had a record-breaking year in the UK in 2022, topping 100,000 registrations for the first time. The Korean automaker will add the seven-seat Kia EV9 to its electric lineup later this year as a rival for the Tesla Model X.

 

[sptrawler]

University of NSW converts deisel engine to run on 90% hydrogen. IMO this is the way trucks will go untill fuel cell costs drop considerably.
Just my opinion.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/new-system-retrofits-diesel-engines-run-90-cent-hydrogen&ved=2ahUKEwid9fjFtdf8AhUXyaACHeAWD8wQFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw27t-OtD36xT8XX7VJQkNga

 

[JohnDe]

 

[JohnDe]

GM have money to burn. Investing in EVs and a new V8 engine at the same time.

GM is spending one billion dollars on a new V8 engine and EV components

General Motors has announced it intends to spend just under one billion dollars to develop its next-generation V8 engine.

The company will invest $918 million across four of its US sites, of which $854 million will be spent developing the sixth generation small block V8, and $64 million on supporting EV production.

GM’s Flint Engine Operations in Michigan will get $579m from that total for the bulk of the new V8 – block, crank and head machining, as well as assembly. Its Bay City GPS site will get $216m to build cams, connecting rods and block and head machining, supporting Flint’s operation.

Meanhile, Defiance Operations in Ohio will get $55m, the bulk of which will go towards building block castings to support the future V8 programme, while $8m will be used to build a casting development cell for “future EV strategies”. Rochester Operations in New York will get a total of $68m from the pot, $12m of which will be used for V8 intake manifolds and fuel rails, and $56m for battery pack cooling lines for GM’s electric cars.

GM investing almost $1billion in next‑gen V8

Yes, next-generation, yes small-block V8: the engine format that’s as archaic as it is evocative, powering everything from ‘60s Lola Can-Am cars that race the Goodwood Revival, to the just-revealed hybridised 2023 C8 Corvette E-Ray. The move is described by the General as one to ‘strengthen its industry-leading full-size truck and SUV business’.

We can surely hope then that the marque’s quintessentially V8-powered sportscar will get V8 power in at least the next generation to come too. GM has so far only committed to all-electric manufacturing and the stop of internal combustion engine production by 2035. That’s no guarantee the gen-six V8 will live right up until then but you can be sure this $918million investment will be expected to yield returns for as long as possible. Add to that the next Corvette isn’t expected before 2028 and you can sort of fill in the blanks: this new V8 should go the distance. Indeed, as the gen-five has, given it debuted almost ten years ago in the 2014 C7 Corvette.

As for the current Corvette, a future V8 doesn’t exclude electrification. Quite the opposite. The E-Ray with its front motor and compact battery is just the start, with GM being very open about the imminent arrival of an all-electric ‘Vette. The fact that will be sold alongside the screaming 670PS 8,600rpm Corvette Z06 is if nothing else, proof the two approaches can co-exist, and even benefit each other. Ford CEO Jim Farley once told us, if not for the Mustang Mach-E, the V8 pony car wouldn’t be allowed to live on. Indeed, there’s a reasonable investment coming for EV architectures and integration, as well as for the V8.

As for the new mill itself, no specs are known just yet and indeed, only the volume utilitarian offerings have been spoken about on the record as hosts for it. Whether it’ll remain naturally aspirated is also up for debate. More as we have it.

 

[sptrawler]

Yes I guess this statement by GM sums up the situation.
It's a bit of a cleft stick, there isn't enough E.V production capability and there are still a lot of people who want to buy ICE cars.

GM to invest $918 million in new V-8 gas engines and EV components

About $579 million will go toward GM's sixth-generation family of small-block V-8 gas engines that are used in highly profitable vehicles.

www.cnbc.com

“Our commitment is to an all-EV future, no doubt about it,” Gerald Johnson, global head of GM’s manufacturing, told reporters after the announcement. “We know that has a horizon and between here and there, there are a lot of internal combustion engine customers that we don’t want to lose.”

The engines are used in some of the automaker’s most highly profitable products, such as its full-size pickup trucks and SUVs. They’ve also been used in some Cadillac and Chevrolet performance cars.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes I guess this statement by GM sums up the situation.
It's a bit of a cleft stick, there isn't enough E.V production capability and there are still a lot of people who want to buy ICE cars.

GM to invest $918 million in new V-8 gas engines and EV components

About $579 million will go toward GM's sixth-generation family of small-block V-8 gas engines that are used in highly profitable vehicles.

www.cnbc.com

“Our commitment is to an all-EV future, no doubt about it,” Gerald Johnson, global head of GM’s manufacturing, told reporters after the announcement. “We know that has a horizon and between here and there, there are a lot of internal combustion engine customers that we don’t want to lose.”

The engines are used in some of the automaker’s most highly profitable products, such as its full-size pickup trucks and SUVs. They’ve also been used in some Cadillac and Chevrolet performance cars.

I wonder if it's possible that as the takeup of EV's increase, petrol is suddenly going to be cheap again and sales of petrol engine vehicles will increase.

If the lawmakers allow it that is.

 

[JohnDe]

I wonder if it's possible that as the takeup of EV's increase, petrol is suddenly going to be cheap again and sales of petrol engine vehicles will increase.

If the lawmakers allow it that is.

Did Kerosene become cheaper when kerosene heater sales dropped, in favour of gas & electric heaters? That was before my time, though I remember during the 1980's my boss buying it by the 44 gallon drum as a cleaning product and he didn't like wasting it.

Edit: how will petrol engine sales increase when manufacturers stop building them?

 

[SirRumpole]

Did Kerosene become cheaper when kerosene heater sales dropped, in favour of gas & electric heaters? That was before my time, though I remember during the 1980's my boss buying it by the 44 gallon drum as a cleaning product and he didn't like wasting it.

Edit: how will petrol engine sales increase when manufacturers stop building them?

You saw that GM is investing $579m in new V8 engines ?

Of course they will eventually die , but in the meantime they will coexist with ev's for quite a while imo, as I said regulations permitting.

 

[JohnDe]

You saw that GM is investing $579m in new V8 engines ?

Of course they will eventually die , but in the meantime they will coexist with ev's for quite a while imo, as I said regulations permitting.

Yes. I also saw Rover invest in a new engine in the late 1990's and then shut up shop in the early 2000's.

As mentioned by various news organisations, GM will most likely use the engine in their performance products. I'm no expert but I have a feeling that the sales number for performance vehicles is not on the high side, especially while total GM sales keep falling. At a guess, I think that this V8 engine will be competition for the likes of vehicle manufacturers that build expensive 2 door sports cars that can enjoy racetrack days. Some engines may make it into the Silverado's and Cadillac's, but they are going to be super expensive.

Future Cadillac four doors will feature a low H point, but that doesn’t mean they will be traditional three-box sedans. Instead, these vehicles will be sportbacks similar to the Cadillac Escala concept, offering up a similar package to a low-slung sedan but with a sportback-style rear end that may offer up more cargo space.​

​

The Cadillac Celestiq is a good example of a low H point vehicle that Cadillac has in the works. However with an expected price tag of $300,000, this vehicle will be inaccessible to the vast majority of Americans. That said, our sources indicate there will be at least one more low H point Cadillac vehicle beyond the Celestiq, which will be smaller and less expensive. GM referred to this model as the “Lux Low Roof,” in its BEV3 product presentation that it delivered back in 2020. The American luxury automaker is also said to be considering a third low H point vehicle of some sort, but it’s unclear if this model has been given the green light for production.​

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All of these future low H point Cadillac vehicles will be battery-electric and will not feature internal combustion engines. The luxury brand will transition to a complete battery-electric vehicle portfolio by 2030 and is therefore not expected to introduce many new internal combustion engine vehicles or variants in the future.​

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EDIT: From December 2020 - Some 150 Cadillac Dealers Choose To Ditch Brand Rather Than Sell Electric Cars

Approximately 150 Cadillac dealerships will reportedly accept buyouts from General Motors rather than making the necessary upgrades required to sell electric vehicles.​

​

GM notified its 880 U.S. dealerships in September that they would each need to invest around $200,000 to sell Cadillac’s upcoming electric vehicles or, instead, accept a buyout from the carmaker. It is understood roughly 17 per cent of Cadillac dealers have opted for the buyout offer, The Detroit News reports.​

​

According to Fox Business, buyout offers ranged from around $300,000 to more than $1 million. Most dealers who accepted the buyout also sell other GM products and often only shift a handful of Cadillacs a month. For them, it simply didn’t make sense to spend $200,000 on costly upgrades to prepare for the automaker’s forthcoming range of EVs.​

​

David Butler from the Cadillac National Dealer Council and executive manager at four Cadillac dealerships said the organization approached General Motors about the transition to electric vehicles.​

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We said you have 900 Cadillac dealers, some of whom are in more rural areas that may not share the vision with you,” Butler told The Detroit News. “We asked that they meet with dealers, explain what the future looks like, and if they chose not to be on board, be able to exit the business gracefully.”​

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The investments required by General Motors include charging stations, training of employees, and lifts that can carry EV batteries.​

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“For small dealers who are selling under 75, under 50 cars a year, it won’t make sense to them,” Inder Dosanjh, dealer principal at the California Automotive Retailing Group, said. “It’s not anything that other manufacturers aren’t requiring. They did the same thing. Volkswagen, Infiniti, they all are requiring the same. It’s nothing crazy. You have to change.”​

 

[Smurf1976]

Did Kerosene become cheaper when kerosene heater sales dropped, in favour of gas & electric heaters?

In short, it slowly but surely became harder to obtain and more expensive for retail consumers.

Go back far enough and service stations commonly had a pump with kero on it, usually next to the building or around the side so separate from the petrol pumps, and if they didn't have a pump then they at least had a 44 Gallon drum of it and dispensed it manually. Price was less than petrol.

Then slowly but surely they were all taken out. One by one, as each servo underwent renovations, the kerosene pump was taken out. Today well I haven't seen one for years now and if you wanted kerosene then as a retail consumer in most places in Australia your only option would be buying it in bottles at a hardware store and paying over $5 per litre.

Huge amounts are still produced and used in the form of jet fuel, which is not identical to lighting kerosene (that's the proper name for it) but is very similar. In that form it's cheap but that's it really, for other uses it's limited to sales in bottles.

So the issue isn't that it became uneconomic to produce kerosene as such, the demand from aviation has kept that very viable, but that it simply became uneconomic to distribute and sell it to the public in ever decreasing quantities. No problem sending millions of litres to a big airport but there's nowhere near enough demand to be selling it to the public from a pump.

LPG for automotive use is going the same way right now. Sill plenty of demand for LPG for all sorts of other uses in industry as well as cooking, hot air balloons, forklifts and many other things but as a fuel for cars it's pretty much dead. Once a renovation is due at a service station, that's the end of the LPG pump.

 

[sptrawler]

The demise of fossil fuel can't be regulated, until the alternative is readily available, so GM is still going to make plenty of money from the investment in the V8, same as Ford is going to make plenty of money from the Ranger, Toyota from the Hi Lux.
It's all about timing.
I'm sure the Govt's will be working with the manufacturers to ensure everyone keeps making money. Lol
Rationalisation of the car industry will be brutal IMO.
The hay days of making $1,000/ service will be gone forever IMO.

 

[mullokintyre]

Hyundai have announced that they will be opening a Factory in Singapore to build around 30,000 EV's
As Singapore is a country that like ours, is RHD, perhaps some of the new Ioniq6 or Kona will arrive on these shores, without the childish "auction" that occurs every time they grace our shores with a few vehicles.
Given the size of the OZ market, wonder why they did not consider opening a plant here?
from The Driven

Hyundai appears to be on target to open its new Singapore manufacturing plant in the first half of 2023. The plant will manufacture Hyundai’s popular EVs such as the Hyundai Ioniq 5 SUV, which sold out locally in under 15 minutes in the latest Australian offering this week.
The plant is part of the Hyundai Motor Group Innovation Centre in Jurong which is a district in western Singapore. It’s also the first car assembly plant to be based in Singapore in more than 40 years.
With the construction completion date set in April, hundreds of Hyundai Ioniq 5 EVs will start rolling out before the middle of the year.
The new plant is a good sign that Hyundai is looking at manufacturing facilities closer to Australia. Singapore is a right-hand drive market like ours and with it being an island nation, it has a car market of around 45,000 vehicles a year.

This means that the new plant in Jurong with a production capacity of 30,000 vehicles will need to be geared to exporting some of the EVs it produces in the coming years. Some of these may even make it to Australia, ensuring we don’t sell out of EV batches in under 15 minutes.

Mick

 

[sptrawler]

If we get a genuine battery manufacturing plant here, I would think that E.V manufacturing would follow.
Having such a small market place for vehicles in Australia, it would make more sense to have the manufacturing near the major Asian markets, so Singapore makes a lot of sense.
There really isn't a lot of advantage producing vehicles here, the input costs are much higher, e.g taxes, wages, shipping of the completed product.
I was reading an article today about the wages an army private in the U.K earns, apparently it is 21,000 pounds, so that's around $42,000 Australian.
Why would they want to build cars here, when they can import a tesla from China, a BYD from China, a Hyundai from Singapore?
Where would the financial or social gain be?

 

[SirRumpole]

If we get a genuine battery manufacturing plant here, I would think that E.V manufacturing would follow.
Having such a small market place for vehicles in Australia, it would make more sense to have the manufacturing near the major Asian markets, so Singapore makes a lot of sense.
There really isn't a lot of advantage producing vehicles here, the input costs are much higher, e.g taxes, wages, shipping of the completed product.
I was reading an article today about the wages an army private in the U.K earns, apparently it is 21,000 pounds, so that's around $42,000 Australian.
Why would they want to build cars here, when they can import a tesla from China, a BYD from China, a Hyundai from Singapore?
Where would the financial or social gain be?

The government would have to get behind it like they did in 1948.

 

[sptrawler]

The government would have to get behind it like they did in 1948.

Only if we actually make a major component here IMO.
If we made the batteries, it would probably sway some manufacturers, but most of our steel processing and materials processing has shut down in the last 30 years, so we would probably struggle to supply enough materials to make cars for our domestic consumption.
Let alone enough to export any great number, but if we have to import the battery packs, the sheet steel, the material for the upholstery then pay assembly line workers $100k/PA if you include annual leave, sickies, super, long service etc.
I just can't see a viable reason to do it here, when say Hyundai sells 100,000 cars here a year, much easier to make them in Singapore/Korea ship 5million to Asia and 100k to Australia.