Electric cars?

Smurf1976 · 10 January 2023

JohnDe said:
Depends what you definition of "a lot of kilometres every day" is.

Furthest I've ever driven in one day is just on 1000km. Strangely enough that was in Tasmania.

Other than that, did 600 - 700 plenty of times touring around WA.

Adelaide - Melbourne is about 750km and have done that more than once with a ~half hour stop in the middle of the trip.

Not personally but I know someone who periodically does a daytrip to Broken Hill from Adelaide. It's about 500km each way.

I'm not arguing against EV's but widespread charging infrastructure will be required definitely.

JohnDe · 10 January 2023

Smurf1976 said:
Furthest I've ever driven in one day is just on 1000km. Strangely enough that was in Tasmania.

Other than that, did 600 - 700 plenty of times touring around WA.

Adelaide - Melbourne is about 750km and have done that more than once with a ~half hour stop in the middle of the trip.

Not personally but I know someone who periodically does a daytrip to Broken Hill from Adelaide. It's about 500km each way.

I'm not arguing against EV's but widespread charging infrastructure will be required definitely.

Adelaide to Melbourne is a regular trip for me. Successfully completed in our Tesla M3LR. Took 50 minutes longer than the same trip in my VF SSV Ute

JohnDe · 10 January 2023

Sdajii said:
That's not anything near any ball park I'd call 'a lot of kilometres every day'.

I often do over 1,000km in a day, I sometimes do 1,500km or more in a day. About a year ago I did just over 6,000km in just over 72 hours.

You don't have to get anywhere near what I do before an EV is completely out of the question. Compared to what I do, people who only make little trips around the corner make you look like you're only making little trips around the corner, and for those people, an EV is not a good option. For people who don't do more than about 300km in a day and can charge up in between drives it's lovely if they don't mind throwing a lot of money at the purchase price.

You only need your vehicle to be incapable of doing what you need it to do once or twice per year for it to be a big issue. For the majority of people (yourself being a good example by the sound of it) big or even medium drives aren't ever a thing, so an EV is great, but for plenty of people they just won't do what is required.

I'm currently in the Great Sandy Desert, I simply can not imagine how EVs could be practical for anyone in this region, and it would scarcely be possible at all to travel through where I am let alone do it practically - a quick check on maps says it's 610km between the nearest place you could charge a car to the west and east of here (unless you wanted to pay someone an insane amount to let them use a generator - I'm currently using electricity from a diesel generator for my laptop). I did see a couple of Teslas in Karratha last month which I thought was interesting, but I'm sure they were owned by very wealthy people (plenty of those out in these mining areas) who own multiple cars and the Tesla is a bit of a toy rather than anything practical. For most people who live in larger cities, sure, they're lovely.

You are in the 5% group of Australian’s that travel more than 600km nonstop in a day on a regular basis. The other 95% travel a lot less.

Your argument about distance between fuel stops is the same as the one for horse & cart salesman, back in the day when the automobile started to slowly come onto the scene.

Value Collector · 10 January 2023

Smurf1976 said:
Other than that, did 600 - 700 plenty of times touring around WA.

Adelaide - Melbourne is about 750km and have done that more than once with a ~half hour stop in the middle of the trip.

Not personally but I know someone who periodically does a daytrip to Broken Hill from Adelaide. It's about 500km each way.

I'm not arguing against EV's but widespread charging infrastructure will be required definitely.

I have driven from north of Brisbane to Sydney in the model 3 about 15 times which is about 1000 km, there is 8 Tesla super chargers between my house and Sydney, I only use 4 of them.

My Model 3 has the smallest battery of any Tesla, but the trip to Sydney is still easy. As I said there is 8 super chargers along the way, and I only need to use 4 of them, and at nine of them do I wait to fill to 100%.

I just start with a full battery charged at home, time my stops to around when I need a pee break or pick up lunch, and carry on my trip after about 15mins of charging, no need to wait for 100% because I know there is another charger 3 hours down the road if I need it, and by then either me or the wife will want a break for some reason.

sptrawler · 10 January 2023

Sdajii said:
That's not anything near any ball park I'd call 'a lot of kilometres every day'.

I often do over 1,000km in a day, I sometimes do 1,500km or more in a day. About a year ago I did just over 6,000km in just over 72 hours.

You don't have to get anywhere near what I do before an EV is completely out of the question. Compared to what I do, people who only make little trips around the corner make you look like you're only making little trips around the corner, and for those people, an EV is not a good option. For people who don't do more than about 300km in a day and can charge up in between drives it's lovely if they don't mind throwing a lot of money at the purchase price.

You only need your vehicle to be incapable of doing what you need it to do once or twice per year for it to be a big issue. For the majority of people (yourself being a good example by the sound of it) big or even medium drives aren't ever a thing, so an EV is great, but for plenty of people they just won't do what is required.

I'm currently in the Great Sandy Desert, I simply can not imagine how EVs could be practical for anyone in this region, and it would scarcely be possible at all to travel through where I am let alone do it practically - a quick check on maps says it's 610km between the nearest place you could charge a car to the west and east of here (unless you wanted to pay someone an insane amount to let them use a generator - I'm currently using electricity from a diesel generator for my laptop). I did see a couple of Teslas in Karratha last month which I thought was interesting, but I'm sure they were owned by very wealthy people (plenty of those out in these mining areas) who own multiple cars and the Tesla is a bit of a toy rather than anything practical. For most people who live in larger cities, sure, they're lovely.

I know where you are coming from, I worked for regional power station and village power supplies, 1,000k's in a day was pretty common.
Also overnight transport light trucks are constantly on the go, supplying bits and pieces all over the place 24/7.
When fast charging is readily available everywhere. who knows, but for the moment it is hard to beat a long range tank and a couple of jerries.
I guess with the whole E.V issue being new and game changing, there is an element of over expectation by one side and scepticism by the other, the end result will no doubt be some where between the two extremes.
I personally think the development of charging infrastructure should be driven by logics not emotion, but as with the NBN when politics become involved, common sense goes out the window.
IMO the focus should be on making it as easy as possible for people in the cities to use an E.V, that gets the maximum number of ICE cars off the road, for the minimum area requiring charger coverage.
With country areas, install a minimum number in as many places as possible, but make sure they are all ultra fast chargers, so that people who are travelling have to take up a minimum amount of time charging and holding up other travellers.
I think most country dwellers, will install their own solar panels and be mainly self sufficient regarding charging.
In the cities with multi story and high density living, charging infrastructure will have to be installed at street level and in high numbers.
As with the power generation industry, the answers will become obvious as time moves on, where it can be done and if it is practical renewable solar generation will be used, where it isn't it wont be.
As I said earlier, IMO it probably wont be a one size fits all outcome.

sptrawler · 10 January 2023

Value Collector said:
I have driven from north of Brisbane to Sydney in the model 3 about 15 times which is about 1000 km, there is 8 Tesla super chargers between my house and Sydney, I only use 4 of them.

My Model 3 has the smallest battery of any Tesla, but the trip to Sydney is still easy. As I said there is 8 super chargers along the way, and I only need to use 4 of them, and at nine of them do I wait to fill to 100%.

I just start with a full battery charged at home, time my stops to around when I need a pee break or pick up lunch, and carry on my trip after about 15mins of charging, no need to wait for 100% because I know there is another charger 3 hours down the road if I need it, and by then either me or the wife will want a break for some reason.

It is interesting with the Tesla model 3, a friend of mine picked up his in March 2022 and just did a trip from Perth to Albany return, he said the range he was getting driving conservatively and slip streaming wasn't as good as he expected.
From his experience, he thinks in summer in W.A he will be using 380-400k's as an expected safe range, how does that compare with your experience on the East coast @Value Collector .
Here is an interesting article on the very same subject, fortunately Australia in general, doesn't have the same climatic extremes some other countries do, but it does show there are limitation issues that require overcoming.

Tesla fined over misleading claims about driving range in severe cold weather

Tesla has been fined for failing to tell its customers about the impact of cold weather on driving range.

www.drive.com.au

From the article:
According to a report from news outlet Reuters, the Korea Fair Trade Commission (KFTC) will fine Tesla 2.85 billion won ($AU3.2 million) for failing to disclose its electric cars are subject to a diminished driving range in cold weather.
The KFTC says the driving range of Tesla models can drop by almost half of the brand's advertised range when used in cold weather.

Similarly, a 2020 study by Canadian company Geotab found car manufacturers' claimed driving range for an electric vehicle can drop by as much as 54 per cent at minus-15 degrees Celsius – with South Korea's capital Seoul often getting that cold in the winter month of January.
The same Canadian study also found hot weather can affect an electric car's driving range, dropping quickly as temperatures increase above 30 degrees Celsius.
At 40 degrees Celsius, the real-world driving range of electric car loses approximately 20 per cent of a manufacturer's claim, according to the Geotab study.

sptrawler · 10 January 2023

JohnDe said:
Adelaide to Melbourne is a regular trip for me. Successfully completed in our Tesla M3LR. Took 50 minutes longer than the same trip in my VF SSV Ute

You may well have been the only E.V on that run, on that particular day, what if there had been 2,000 E.V's doing that very same trip an that day?
The VF SSV would have taken the same time, even if the road was packed, because physically ATM it does take a lot less time to get the same amount of energy into the vehicle.
In the future that may all change, but ATM it is only due to the small number of E.V's and the fact that most are owned by people who generally don't depend on the vehicle, that it is all working o.k.
The next couple of years may well change the experience, with an overloaded electrical system, a rapid uptake of E.V's due to fuel prices and a ramping up of the supply of E.V's, the weak links in the system may well be highlighted IMO.

JohnDe · 10 January 2023

sptrawler said:
You may well have been the only E.V on that run, on that particular day, what if there had been 2,000 E.V's doing that very same trip an that day?
The VF SSV would have taken the same time, even if the road was packed, because physically ATM it does take a lot less time to get the same amount of energy into the vehicle.
In the future that may all change, but ATM it is only due to the small number of E.V's and the fact that most are owned by people who generally don't depend on the vehicle, that it is all working o.k.
The next couple of years may well change the experience, with an overloaded electrical system, a rapid uptake of E.V's due to fuel prices and a ramping up of the supply of E.V's, the weak links in the system may well be highlighted IMO.

"what if there had been 2,000 E.V's doing that very same trip an that day?"

The exact same situation that would have occurred when the combustion engine carriage started to show up amongst the horses & their carriages. There were no fuelling stations, only entrepreneurial individuals with the idea to stock a flammable fuel for the futurists with their horseless carriages.

Sdajii · 10 January 2023

It's an interesting situation. Most radical changes in what people buy or do are pushed in by consumers/users. Everyone bought smart phones because they wanted them and then because everyone wanted it, businesses started supplying wifi and charging stations etc. Everyone wants a new road or servo or airport or cafe so it then gets built, it generally happens 'naturally', but EVs are something the system is desperately trying to push consumers into and the infrastructure as well as the demand is being forced in artificially. Mandates to get rid of ICEs, installing charging stations to encourage people to use them (generally businesses react to an existing demand), telling people it's going to help their social standing if they buy an EV, financial subsidies, etc. Ironically this is happening at the same time as the government forces out cheap, reliable electricity and replaces it with more expensive and less reliable alternatives, definitely not ideal to do these at the same time, but it's all being forced through artificially so it will happen.

sptrawler · 10 January 2023

Sdajii said:
It's an interesting situation. Most radical changes in what people buy or do are pushed in by consumers/users. Everyone bought smart phones because they wanted them and then because everyone wanted it, businesses started supplying wifi and charging stations etc. Everyone wants a new road or servo or airport or cafe so it then gets built, it generally happens 'naturally', but EVs are something the system is desperately trying to push consumers into and the infrastructure as well as the demand is being forced in artificially. Mandates to get rid of ICEs, installing charging stations to encourage people to use them (generally businesses react to an existing demand), telling people it's going to help their social standing if they buy an EV, financial subsidies, etc. Ironically this is happening at the same time as the government forces out cheap, reliable electricity and replaces it with more expensive and less reliable alternatives, definitely not ideal to do these at the same time, but it's all being forced through artificially so it will happen.

Very true, there is a huge push worldwide to reduce carbon emissions, rightly or wrongly it is happening.
Whether it is causing atmospheric warming is a mute point IMO, the change to E.V's will continue regardless, it makes a lot of sense in high population density areas on health reasons alone. Add to that the fact an E.V is a much more practical and efficient drive system and electrical control systems are easily integrated into them, it becomes a no brainer.
Then if you throw in the fact that there is a lot of money to be made be carrying out the transition, IMO it isn't if, it is only a question of the time frame.
I'm not confident that most people will actually have a car in years to come, I'm of the opinion that autonomous ride share will be the end game for the plebs and personal vehicle ownership will be the realm of the essential services and the wealthy.
Just my two cents worth.

sptrawler · 10 January 2023

JohnDe said:
"what if there had been 2,000 E.V's doing that very same trip an that day?"

The exact same situation that would have occurred when the combustion engine carriage started to show up amongst the horses & their carriages. There were no fuelling stations, only entrepreneurial individuals with the idea to stock a flammable fuel for the futurists with their horseless carriages.

Not really, because people back when cars were invented weren't anywhere near as transient as we are today, also the expectation and requirement to cover long distances in a short period of time wasn't there, so the adoption of the automobile was extremely gradual.
Add to that the fact that we are actually slowing down the process, whereas not only was the automobile starting from scratch, it was actually faster, could go further and didn't require constant food, water and sleep as the horse did.
So it isn't an apples for apples comparison.
We are now going from something that is already available, extremely effective and flexible, to a whole new system that for many ATM will cause a reduction in their perceived quality of life.
As you know I do have an E.V and I do love it, but I'm under no illusion, that it will suit everyone at this point in time.
Maybe down the track when there is sufficient infrastructure and E.V's all have rapid charging ability etc, but to think there wont be speed bumps along the way is a fallacy IMO.
We already have stretched electrical infrastructure, we are trying to rapidly replace generating infrastructure, if supply disruptions become the norm it will prove quite interesting.
As I have said, I'm sure that E.V's are a certainty, just not as certain as some that the early years are going to be all beer and party poppers.

Value Collector · 10 January 2023

sptrawler said:
It is interesting with the Tesla model 3, a friend of mine picked up his in March 2022 and just did a trip from Perth to Albany return, he said the range he was getting driving conservatively and slip streaming wasn't as good as he expected.
From his experience, he thinks in summer in W.A he will be using 380-400k's as an expected safe range, how does that compare with your experience on the East coast @Value Collector .
Here is an interesting article on the very same subject, fortunately Australia in general, doesn't have the same climatic extremes some other countries do, but it does show there are limitation issues that require overcoming.

Tesla fined over misleading claims about driving range in severe cold weather

Tesla has been fined for failing to tell its customers about the impact of cold weather on driving range.

www.drive.com.au

From the article:
According to a report from news outlet Reuters, the Korea Fair Trade Commission (KFTC) will fine Tesla 2.85 billion won ($AU3.2 million) for failing to disclose its electric cars are subject to a diminished driving range in cold weather.
The KFTC says the driving range of Tesla models can drop by almost half of the brand's advertised range when used in cold weather.

Similarly, a 2020 study by Canadian company Geotab found car manufacturers' claimed driving range for an electric vehicle can drop by as much as 54 per cent at minus-15 degrees Celsius – with South Korea's capital Seoul often getting that cold in the winter month of January.
The same Canadian study also found hot weather can affect an electric car's driving range, dropping quickly as temperatures increase above 30 degrees Celsius.
At 40 degrees Celsius, the real-world driving range of electric car loses approximately 20 per cent of a manufacturer's claim, according to the Geotab study.

Mine would have a smaller battery than his, because they increased the battery range shortly after I bought mine.

The stated range of mine is 355km, but I can get more than that if I try, I have done over 400km before.

I guess it depends on a lot, but in the east coast doing the Brisbane > Sydney > Melbourne route you don’t really need to think about it, you just stop and charge when it says to charge and it finds the places to charge for you.

I haven’t ever had to worry about not having enough charge, so they guys with the newer cars with the larger batteries should be ok ( atleast on the east coast)

JohnDe · 10 January 2023

sptrawler said:
Not really, because people back when cars were invented weren't anywhere near as transient as we are today, also the expectation and requirement to cover long distances in a short period of time wasn't there, so the adoption of the automobile was extremely gradual.
Add to that the fact that we are actually slowing down the process, whereas not only was the automobile starting from scratch, it was actually faster, could go further and didn't require constant food, water and sleep as the horse did.
So it isn't an apples for apples comparison.
We are now going from something that is already available, extremely effective and flexible, to a whole new system that for many ATM will cause a reduction in their perceived quality of life.
As you know I do have an E.V and I do love it, but I'm under no illusion, that it will suit everyone at this point in time.
Maybe down the track when there is sufficient infrastructure and E.V's all have rapid charging ability etc, but to think there wont be speed bumps along the way is a fallacy IMO.
We already have stretched electrical infrastructure, we are trying to rapidly replace generating infrastructure, if supply disruptions become the norm it will prove quite interesting.
As I have said, I'm sure that E.V's are a certainty, just not as certain as some that the early years are going to be all beer and party poppers.

“people back when cars were invented weren't anywhere near as transient as we are today”

Maybe not in Australia, but in the USA they were. Check the history books.

Value Collector · 10 January 2023

Sdajii said:
That's not anything near any ball park I'd call 'a lot of kilometres every day'.

I often do over 1,000km in a day, I sometimes do 1,500km or more in a day. About a year ago I did just over 6,000km in just over 72 hours.

You don't have to get anywhere near what I do before an EV is completely out of the question. Compared to what I do, people who only make little trips around the corner make you look like you're only making little trips around the corner, and for those people, an EV is not a good option. For people who don't do more than about 300km in a day and can charge up in between drives it's lovely if they don't mind throwing a lot of money at the purchase price.

You only need your vehicle to be incapable of doing what you need it to do once or twice per year for it to be a big issue. For the majority of people (yourself being a good example by the sound of it) big or even medium drives aren't ever a thing, so an EV is great, but for plenty of people they just won't do what is required.

I'm currently in the Great Sandy Desert, I simply can not imagine how EVs could be practical for anyone in this region, and it would scarcely be possible at all to travel through where I am let alone do it practically - a quick check on maps says it's 610km between the nearest place you could charge a car to the west and east of here (unless you wanted to pay someone an insane amount to let them use a generator - I'm currently using electricity from a diesel generator for my laptop). I did see a couple of Teslas in Karratha last month which I thought was interesting, but I'm sure they were owned by very wealthy people (plenty of those out in these mining areas) who own multiple cars and the Tesla is a bit of a toy rather than anything practical. For most people who live in larger cities, sure, they're lovely.

I actually see EV’s as a great thing for remote areas once the infrastructure is built.

Think about it, currently you rely on a network tanker ships and trucks to deliver fuel out to the remote region for you. However this system could be replaced by an ev charging station powered by batteries and solar. Even if it had a back up diesel generator you would still require less tanker truck journeys

sptrawler · 10 January 2023

Value Collector said:
Mine would have a smaller battery than his, because they increased the battery range shortly after I bought mine.

The stated range of mine is 355km, but I can get more than that if I try, I have done over 400km before.

I guess it depends on a lot, but in the east coast doing the Brisbane > Sydney > Melbourne route you don’t really need to think about it, you just stop and charge when it says to charge and it finds the places to charge for you.

I haven’t ever had to worry about not having enough charge, so they guys with the newer cars with the larger batteries should be ok ( atleast on the east coast)

I'm yet to do a long trip in mine, so I have no idea, it says expected range is 500kl on a full charge, but I'm not sure how accurate my GOM (guess o meter) is yet.

sptrawler · 10 January 2023

JohnDe said:
“people back when cars were invented weren't anywhere near as transient as we are today”

Maybe not in Australia, but in the USA they were. Check the history books.

Maybe the USA are putting in more infrastructure? But I'm not driving there and I'm more talking about my experience in W.A.?
But as VC and you have said, the East Coast sounds as though it has enough infrastructure already, I think the Northern Territory has one fast charger.

Mercedes plans 10,000 electric vehicle chargers globally by 2030, but not Australia

All electric vehicles could eventually benefit from a planned 10,000 charging network from Mercedes-Benz.

www.drive.com.au

From Tesla website.

Value Collector · 10 January 2023

sptrawler said:
I'm yet to do a long trip in mine, so I have no idea, it says expected range is 500kl on a full charge, but I'm not sure how accurate my GOM (guess o meter) is yet.

View attachment 151468

View attachment 151469

Yeah, I am not sure about your car, but on mine in addition to that stock standard battery percentage range estimate you have two other way of estimating.

1, you have a live range estimate you can view based on your current driving pattern over the last 10km, 25km or 50km.

2, you can plug your route into your GPS navigation and the Tesla will tell you your expected battery % at the end, this is pretty accurate, if needed it will also select a route with a charger, it also provides a live estimate in the gps of your battery level at you

Value Collector · 10 January 2023

sptrawler said:
Maybe the USA are putting in more infrastructure? But I'm not driving there and I'm more talking about my experience in W.A.?
But as VC and you have said, the East Coast sounds as though it has enough infrastructure already, I think the Northern Territory has one fast charger.

Mercedes plans 10,000 electric vehicle chargers globally by 2030, but not Australia

All electric vehicles could eventually benefit from a planned 10,000 charging network from Mercedes-Benz.

www.drive.com.au

From Tesla website.

View attachment 151471

I remember back in 2017 when I first placed my order for the Tesla, the Tesla charging network hadn’t reached Brisbane yet.

I was living in Sydney at the time but knew I would need to drive to Brisbane for the car to be practical to me, luckily between the time I placed my order and when I picked the car up 2 years later they had added 4 charging locations that allowed me to to Sydney to Brisbane easily, since then they have added another 4 on that route.

I live in hope that you WA guys will get some love soon ?

JohnDe · 10 January 2023

sptrawler said:
Maybe the USA are putting in more infrastructure? But I'm not driving there and I'm more talking about my experience in W.A.?
But as VC and you have said, the East Coast sounds as though it has enough infrastructure already, I think the Northern Territory has one fast charger.

Mercedes plans 10,000 electric vehicle chargers globally by 2030, but not Australia

All electric vehicles could eventually benefit from a planned 10,000 charging network from Mercedes-Benz.

www.drive.com.au

From Tesla website.

View attachment 151471

True, but as I’m pointing out changes happen before you know it and the slow get left behind trying to offload the horse & cart.

sptrawler · 10 January 2023

JohnDe said:
True, but as I’m pointing out changes happen before you know it and the slow get left behind trying to offload the horse & cart.

That is so true and the very reason I bought what I did.

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

Already own one

Yes - would definitely buy

Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

No - would never buy one

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