Electric cars?

[Dona Ferentes]

do yourselves a favour and see the latest Top Gun movie in the cinema, Im not a big movie fan, but if you are into planes, it is un bloodi believable.

I believe there's a bit of Product Placement for Viagra in the movie, which I suppose is appropriate as the theme is all about "soft power projection".

 

[sptrawler]

Devils advocate:
Infrastructure should not mean charger but readying grid..
Why should we as taxpayer fund chargers which benefit long distance idle travelers and not workers.
No worker is or should be stopping for one hour for a reload in the middle of nowhere charger.
Tax payer charging stations are like giving subsidies for holiday resort or RV purchases.
Think about ANY advantage in term of productivity? Or community wide returns..so in a non twisted way, these charger are encouraging idle useless travel.
Readying the grid is a different business and less technology picking.
We might get ultrafast charging or swap based in 5y and all these charging stations might become obsolete.the need for grid will remain

Why should the W.A taxpayer, pay for the Eastern States grid upgrade, when we have our own seperate grid and have to pay for that to be upgraded on our own?
Oh sorry I forgot W.A the N.T doesnt exist. Lol
The States should be responsible for their own decisions, the Feds are funding a lot of the Eastern States grid upgrades, with all Australians taxes.

 

[sptrawler]

I believe there's a bit of Product Placement for Viagra in the movie, which I suppose is appropriate as the theme is all about "soft power projection".

I didnt go that deep, just thought the cinematography was excellent, I never go to the movies for deep and meaningful enlightenment, or looking for subliminal messages, just looking for light entertainment.

 

[qldfrog]

Why should the W.A taxpayer, pay for the Eastern States grid upgrade, when we have our own seperate grid and have to pay for that to be upgraded on our own?
Oh sorry I forgot W.A the N.T doesnt exist. Lol
The States should be responsible for their own decisions, the Feds are funding a lot of the Eastern States grid upgrades, with all Australians taxes.

You seem to have been under lockdown for too long in the west:? the key message in the post is that subsidies to charger at the time is a subsidy to idle people not the active part economically.
Most of cars are used to commute and do daily relatively short runs to the school,shop, GP, sports or activities. Even social going out.
These trips require home charging flexibility, not on the road chargers.
If subsidies have to go for chargers, in term of societal benefits. (As we are sold the BS of save the planet with EVs...), Then home chargers should be it, not chargers in the middle of nowhere.
BTW, i was in for a bit of a shock when checking the cost of a home charger..nearly $2k all in,just to be able to charge your EV overnight at more than a trickle
Another 1 tonne of free fuel to break even in the ICE vs EV challenge...

 

[sptrawler]

You seem to have been under lockdown for too long in the west:? the key message in the post is that subsidies to charger at the time is a subsidy to idle people not the active part economically.
Most of cars are used to commute and do daily relatively short runs to the school,shop, GP, sports or activities. Even social going out.
These trips require home charging flexibility, not on the road chargers.
If subsidies have to go for chargers, in term of societal benefits. (As we are sold the BS of save the planet with EVs...), Then home chargers should be it, not chargers in the middle of nowhere.
BTW, i was in for a bit of a shock when checking the cost of a home charger..nearly $2k all in,just to be able to charge your EV overnight at more than a trickle
Another 1 tonne of free fuel to break even in the ICE vs EV challenge...

Yes I was only joking frog, before the resources boom, W.A was a drain on the national tax purse and I'm sure we will be again at some later date.
With E.V charging it sounds as though the private sector are stepping up over East, I hope the W.A retailers and service providers follow suit.

Hundreds of new free electric car chargers coming to NSW

Power company Endeavour Energy has partnered with charging network Jolt to install 230 free electric car charging points along NSW's roadsides by 2025.

www.drive.com.au

 

[Macquack]

Yes I was only joking frog, before the resources boom, W.A was a drain on the national tax purse and I'm sure we will be again at some later date.
With E.V charging it sounds as though the private sector are stepping up over East, I hope the W.A retailers and service providers follow suit.

Hundreds of new free electric car chargers coming to NSW

Power company Endeavour Energy has partnered with charging network Jolt to install 230 free electric car charging points along NSW's roadsides by 2025.

www.drive.com.au

I don't understand why these EV chargers need to be free. I know it is only 7 kW per day, but won't that create massive queues of free loaders at the "expense" of drivers that are prepared to pay the normal going rate.

 

[mullokintyre]

What is the criteria for supply?

Sorry not sure what you are asking me here?
I was suggesting that while an area may have sufficient capicity in terms of transmission, the localsupply may not be sufficient to provide.
mick

 

[JohnDe]

Sorry not sure what you are asking me here?
I was suggesting that while an area may have sufficient capicity in terms of transmission, the localsupply may not be sufficient to provide.
mick

mullokintyre said:
The two issues need to be running in parralel.
would be foolish to put all the incentives in only one area.
No point in putting in heaps of chargers if network or local supply cant run them.
Mick

JohnDe said:
What is the criteria for supply?

I was asking what the criteria would be in regards to the number of EV chargers and the available electricity supply from the grid.

Why do you think there will be a problem?

The installation of EV chargers is no different to the what the electricity supply industry went through the late 80's early 90's during the boom in home reverse cycle A/C. Increased demand equals increased profits as well as supply problems, and new ideas to solve and overcome adversity.

Overseas experience has shown that suppliers can catch up with demand.

"Fact: If 80% of all passenger cars become electric, this would lead to a total increase of 10-15% in electricity consumption."​

​

So far, the market entry of EVs has been very predictable and the electric grid is constantly being developed in parallel. Current EV market trends show low to moderate energy uptake rates."​

​

At the same time, electric vehicles are 5 to 6 times more energy-efficient than the best internal combustion engines (ICE) vehicle. In passenger cars, EVs consume 25% the amount of energy in comparison to ICE vehicles. E-trucks consume about 50% of their diesel equivalents’ own energy consumption. "​

Myth buster: Electric vehicles will overload the power grid

Will a mass transition to electric vehicles (EVs) cause the electric power grid to collapse? Some argue that EVs will make the grid unstable, which could mean hefty investments to upgrade existing infrastructures in order to withstand the electricity uptake.

VEHICLE ELECTRIFICATION​

As the EU aims to ban the sale of fossil-fuel vehicles by 2030, this means new car buyers will have three options: plug-in hybrids (PHEVs), battery-electric vehicles (BEVs) or hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles. Globally, more than four million PHEVs and BEVs have been sold so far – and that is predicted to increase to 125 million by 2030.

Currently, EVs only account for 2.6% of global car sales and about 1% of the global car stock in 2019. Until 15% of the vehicles on the road go electric, there won’t be any real impact on the grid. That level of uptake isn’t predicted to happen until 2035, according to a Bloomberg New Energy Finance report.

ELECTRIC VEHICLE GRID IMPACT​

Fact: If 80% of all passenger cars become electric, this would lead to a total increase of 10-15% in electricity consumption.

So far, the market entry of EVs has been very predictable and the electric grid is constantly being developed in parallel. Current EV market trends show low to moderate energy uptake rates.

The projected growth in e-mobility will not drive an immediate or substantial increase in total electrical-grid power demand, according to a study by McKinsey & Company. This means EV’s aren’t likely to cause any abrupt surprises or disruptions in our power supply and there is no need for new electricity-generation capacity in the near future.

If we take Germany as an example, EV growth won’t cause any large increases in power demand through 2030. On the contrary, EVs could add 1% to the total and require about five extra gigawatts (GW) of generation capacity. That amount could grow to roughly 4% by 2050, which would only require an additional capacity of about 20 GW. Moreover, this new-build capacity will likely involve renewables, including wind and solar power, with some gas-powered generation.

At the same time, electric vehicles are 5 to 6 times more energy-efficient than the best internal combustion engines (ICE) vehicle. In passenger cars, EVs consume 25% the amount of energy in comparison to ICE vehicles. E-trucks consume about 50% of their diesel equivalents’ own energy consumption.

This means that when a majority of the vehicles on our streets are electric, the total amount of energy consumed in transport is significantly less than what it is now. And electric vehicles only continue to get more efficient and green.

ELECTRIC CARS AS A POWER SOURCE​

Presently our electricity system is undergoing an unprecedented change as the electricity production structure is rapidly becoming carbon-neutral and simultaneously more variable according to the weather.

In the EU, 58% of electricity generation is already carbon neutral. And the situation continues to exponentially improve. By 2030, EVs should reduce CO2 emissions by four-fold as a result of the EU grid relying more heavily on renewables.

Consequently, renewable energy-based electricity production causes volatility to the system and requires flexibility, as well as demand response elements to keep the system stable, reliable, and reasonably priced.

To combat this instability, electric vehicles can provide a vital source of flexibility in the energy system. Instead of being a threat to grid stability or capacity, EVs can connect sustainable transportation and energy into an embedded ecosystem.

To put it simply, EVs act as big batteries on wheels. They make it possible for energy to be stored and used at a later time. In the next few years, we will have a pool of EV chargers utilised as aggregated reserves with peak power equal to a nuclear reactor. By the 2040s, electric vehicles will add up to over 30 TWh of installed battery storage capacity. To put that into perspective, Finland consumed 86 TWh of electricity in 2019.

EV SMART CHARGING AND VEHICLE TO GRID (V2G)​

When it comes to managing the peak electricity demand and low-voltage grid, smart charging can solve most of the challenges at the local level and in residential areas.

Smart charging, also known as V1G charging, refers to a system where an EV and a charging device share a data connection so that you can intelligently manage how your EV charges by connecting it to the grid. Smart charging makes optimal use of the energy that is available during a certain period of time.

An EV battery can be used to store renewable energy during the day when production is typically high. In the evening, when consumption peaks, the energy can be discharged to relieve pressure on the market.

For utilities, this means that EVs offer cheap energy storage, with no capital cost and relatively low operating costs. Not only can EV batteries be used to help stabilise the grid but EV owners will have the opportunity to earn money for this service.

To take smart charging a step further, vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology is also now available. In addition to controlling the charging power, V2G enables the charged power to be momentarily pushed back from the car batteries to the grid, in order to balance variations in energy production and consumption.

To learn more about this technology, check out our guide to V2G.

MORE ELECTRIC VEHICLE CHARGING MYTHS​

While the electrification of mobility is definitely accelerating, a massive power-demand crisis due to electric vehicles simply won’t happen overnight. This is an evolution that spans over decades, not a sudden revolution. This gives utility companies plenty of time to plan ahead.

However, the situation is country-specific. For example, in northern Europe, the evolution is more effortless because of the strong power grids and electric heating already in place. In other areas of Europe, the evolution is a bit more difficult due to the one-phase energy systems and older structures. The local grids may require more investments and development.

But, one thing is certain: regardless of the country, the investments must be targeted to updating infrastructures for the future.

This was just one of many myths about electric vehicles. Stay tuned as we debunk more EV charging myths. This is the second in our myth-busting blog series, where we set the record straight and address some of the most common misconceptions.

If you’d like to learn more facts about electric vehicles and EV charging, take a look at the comprehensive guide below.

 

[mullokintyre]

I was asking what the criteria would be in regards to the number of EV chargers and the available electricity supply from the grid.

Why do you think there will be a problem?

The installation of EV chargers is no different to the what the electricity supply industry went through the late 80's early 90's during the boom in home reverse cycle A/C. Increased demand equals increased profits as well as supply problems, and new ideas to solve and overcome adversity.

Overseas experience has shown that suppliers can catch up with demand.

"Fact: If 80% of all passenger cars become electric, this would lead to a total increase of 10-15% in electricity consumption."​

​

So far, the market entry of EVs has been very predictable and the electric grid is constantly being developed in parallel. Current EV market trends show low to moderate energy uptake rates."​

​

At the same time, electric vehicles are 5 to 6 times more energy-efficient than the best internal combustion engines (ICE) vehicle. In passenger cars, EVs consume 25% the amount of energy in comparison to ICE vehicles. E-trucks consume about 50% of their diesel equivalents’ own energy consumption. "​

The problem is always scalbility.
When AC units threatened supply, the level that each unit needed was only ten amps or so.
Fast charging EV stations need amps by a factor of ten.
it will not be a consistent problem but there will be pockets both geographically and temporal when it will. It does not have to be so as long as the planning for it is done with engineering and physics limitations in mind.
but it will likely be run by accountants and politicians, hence my reservations.
The article you quoted highlights the problems.
1. it talks about European conditions which is significantly different to a large sparsely populated continent like ours.
2.it talks about averages, but we have already seen, we rarely have an average day. Its the peaks that will get you every time.
mick

 

[JohnDe]

The problem is always scalbility.
When AC units threatened supply, the level that each unit needed was only ten amps or so.
Fast charging EV stations need amps by a factor of ten.
it will not be a consistent problem but there will be pockets both geographically and temporal when it will. It does not have to be so as long as the planning for it is done with engineering and physics limitations in mind.
but it will likely be run by accountants and politicians, hence my reservations.
The article you quoted highlights the problems.
1. it talks about European conditions which is significantly different to a large sparsely populated continent like ours.
2.it talks about averages, but we have already seen, we rarely have an average day. Its the peaks that will get you every time.
mick

You miss the point "While the electrification of mobility is definitely accelerating, a massive power-demand crisis due to electric vehicles simply won’t happen overnight. This is an evolution that spans over decades, not a sudden revolution. This gives utility companies plenty of time to plan ahead."

New EV models are now enabling battery discharging, which means that during times of peak demand EVs can put electricity back into the household or grid. This would actually reduce the chance of blackouts by flattening peak demand. The Electric Vehicle Council is already working with grid operators and energy companies to avoid the potential pitfalls of increasing electricity demand and instead harness the benefits of this new technology.

Mythbusting - Electric Vehicle Council

electricvehiclecouncil.com.au

About 90% of Australia's population live grouped together in coastal areas.

 

[basilio]

CATL , the worlds biggest EV battery supplier, have announced a 3rd Generation battery pack. It will offer 1000Klm range and a re -charging time from 10- 80% in 10 minutes .

Some fascinating technology in the improvements. Worth checking out.
CATL also has a range of completely new solid state battery technology in the pipeline.

Chinese company unveils new electric-car battery with 620+ miles of range — 50% more than Tesla's Model S

CATL's next-generation battery, called the Qilin, has a greater energy density than the company's previous packs.

www.businessinsider.com

CATL launches CTP 3.0 battery “Qilin,” achieves the highest integration level in the world

On June 23, CATL launched Qilin, the third generation of its CTP (cell-to-pack) technology. With a record-breaking volume utilization efficiency of 72% and an energy density of up to 255 Wh/kg, it achieves the highest integration level worldwide so far, capable of delivering a range of over...

www.catl.com

 

[3 hound]

Living at home in the city is o.k for a while, but when the missus wants to go away for a weekend and early uptake husband who talked her into the E.V breaks out in a rash and a cold sweat while explaining why they can't is another.
Worse still if he is sitting in the drivers seat in a queue for 5 hrs waiting for a charge, or worse still a tilt bed truck because there isn't a charger, meanwhile the missus is in the passenger seat and you've lost reception all picture no sound. ?

This is horror story, you should have put a warning label it.

 

[qldfrog]

Yes I was only joking frog, before the resources boom, W.A was a drain on the national tax purse and I'm sure we will be again at some later date.
With E.V charging it sounds as though the private sector are stepping up over East, I hope the W.A retailers and service providers follow suit.

Hundreds of new free electric car chargers coming to NSW

Power company Endeavour Energy has partnered with charging network Jolt to install 230 free electric car charging points along NSW's roadsides by 2025.

www.drive.com.au

Free? Do they sell sandwitches lollies and stuffs .nothing is free?
As long as taxpayer money is not involved, all good

 

[3 hound]

Free? Do they sell sandwitches lollies and stuffs .nothing is free?
As long as taxpayer money is not involved, all good

I hear politicians and environmentalists at the highest level say stuff like wind and solar is free and journalists etc let them get away with it.

Solar is free like gold, diamonds, coal, uranium are all free...every precious metal, commodity and natural material is in fact free....until you want to use it for something.

 

[JohnDe]

I hear politicians and environmentalists at the highest level say stuff like wind and solar is free and journalists etc let them get away with it.

Solar is free like gold, diamonds, coal, uranium are all free...every precious metal, commodity and natural material is in fact free....until you want to use it for something.

Yes, Australia has lots of ‘free’ resources. However, almost all oil for fuel comes from overseas, because we don’t have a lot of it.

 

[mullokintyre]

You miss the point "While the electrification of mobility is definitely accelerating, a massive power-demand crisis due to electric vehicles simply won’t happen overnight. This is an evolution that spans over decades, not a sudden revolution. This gives utility companies plenty of time to plan ahead."



About 90% of Australia's population live grouped together in coastal areas.

View attachment 143591

Missing the point?
the reality is none of this stuff you point out is linear.
Averagesare an artificial construct that very few of us live under.
Those in the outliers don,t give a fig about averages, they see there situation.
there are pockets of extremely high density population as well as extremely low ones.
there are pockets of extremely low phone coverage as well as pockets of saturation.
I think this discusiion is going nowhere.

 

[Value Collector]

I don't understand why these EV chargers need to be free. I know it is only 7 kW per day, but won't that create massive queues of free loaders at the "expense" of drivers that are prepared to pay the normal going rate.

They don’t “Need” to be free, that’s just the businesses model they are attempting to run with, the main income stream will be from the advertising on the side.

If their free version doesn’t work, I would guess it would be super easy to move to a pay to play model.

 

[Value Collector]

I hear politicians and environmentalists at the highest level say stuff like wind and solar is free and journalists etc let them get away with it.

Solar is free like gold, diamonds, coal, uranium are all free...every precious metal, commodity and natural material is in fact free....until you want to use it for something.

It’s free in the sense that you don’t have to buy fuel for it,

Eg whether you build a coal power station or a wind farm you have to spend resources to construct it, but the coal power station requires you to spend money buying fuel constantly where as once they are built wind and solar don’t.

 

[JohnDe]

Missing the point?
the reality is none of this stuff you point out is linear.
Averagesare an artificial construct that very few of us live under.
Those in the outliers don,t give a fig about averages, they see there situation.
there are pockets of extremely high density population as well as extremely low ones.
there are pockets of extremely low phone coverage as well as pockets of saturation.
I think this discusiion is going nowhere.

The point is that EV ownership will take a decade before it came close to surpassing ICE vehicles, which means that electricity supply will have no issue from EV’s drawing too much from the grid in the early years, which allows time to improve & increase supply. And this has been proven in other countries with higher EV take up while some of those countries transition to renewables.

 

[sptrawler]

Missing the point?
the reality is none of this stuff you point out is linear.
Averagesare an artificial construct that very few of us live under.
Those in the outliers don,t give a fig about averages, they see there situation.
there are pockets of extremely high density population as well as extremely low ones.
there are pockets of extremely low phone coverage as well as pockets of saturation.
I think this discusiion is going nowhere.

The point is that EV ownership will take a decade before it came close to surpassing ICE vehicles, which means that electricity supply will have no issue from EV’s drawing too much from the grid in the early years, which allows time to improve & increase supply. And this has been proven in other countries with higher EV take up while some of those countries transition to renewables.

IMO the big thing that has to happen is that charging infrastructure is made standard, like phone charging any phone should be able to charge from any Australian compliance outlet e.g GPO's with USB outlets, so that an iphone or an android can charge from that outlet with their charge cable.
The new Govt needs to prioritise a standard outlet ASAP, all chargers should be able to accept all cars, it is a no brainer the last thing we need is a charger war going on it will set back EV's 20 years if they don't.
Australia hasn't got the population density, to support different charging infrastructures.