Electric cars?

[rederob]

Iron, not true?
I like arguments like that.....
What about you actually take a calculator? I actually..true ...did that.
So the 10y before breakeven is including cheaper service (130 dollar a year),and 0 dollar costs for charging and the most expensive fuel cost ever seen..hard to be more favorable to EV

The maths has been done many times in this thread and EVs keep coming out on top. For example:

Buying an EV will still save thousands, even if petrol is free​

As for money on resale, my 12y old 4wd ute doubles value in the last year, what about your Tesla?
I do not want to include that or inflation...

I am not sure doubling a few hundred dollars is a big deal!

Buying an EV in 2022 still does not make sense economically for the average user
It is not a subject of "discussion", just facts.

Then present your facts.
You make claims on a regular basis which are your opinions only and are not at all supported by hard data.

EV remains the beemer of the green brigade.

Oh yeah. The AU$8k BEVs available are just like beemers! What nonsense. Wuling's Mini is second only to Tesla in EV sales.

Looking forward when this changes..but remember in 2022, millions still use iphones with cracked screens instead of 30 to 50% cheaper chinese android phones..so yes branding and look/statute is enough to build a market above facts

Yet @sptrawler, @mullokintyre and I are buying brands that are barely known to be available as EVs, if known at all. Not a single friend had heard of an Atto 3 until I said I was buying one.

Your bandwagon broke down long ago and you continue to spout baseless ideas.

 

[sptrawler]

Thus far for people in regional and rural Australia EV's are unrealistic due to high mileage needs and lack of charging. The prices quoted are out of peoples reach.

Prius seems to be the best and cheapest way for anyone to go, a hybrid with low fuel needs and an engine which continually recharges the battery, the latter being used most of the time to run the motor.

gg

With the hybrids GG, the new Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which is due here soon seems to tick a lot of boxes. When I was researching hybrids, it seemed like there are two ways to go plug in and non plug in, with the non plug in they have a small battery, which basically gets the car off the mark and then the ICE engine takes over which saves a bit on fuel the advantage is they don't cost a lot more than the pure ICE vehicle.
The plug in hybrids are able to be charged at home and because the battery isn't huge as in a pure E.V, the battery doesn't take a long time to charge. What I didn't like about them was I thought the battery in most of them was just that little bit too small to justify the extra cost over the equivalent ICE car. Most of them had around 10-13Kw batteries which could travel about 40klm give or take in pure E.V mode, the new Outlander is getting a 20Kw battery, that should get around 70klm in E.V mode which is more usable and could still easily be charged overnight from a normal outlet.
Then the issue became cost, the pricing for the new Outlander PHEV hasn't been announced, but comparing it to the superseded model I would think it will be in the region of $65k, which is the price of a long range E.V so it all becomes complicated IMO.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

With the hybrids GG, the new Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which is due here soon seems to tick a lot of boxes. When I was researching hybrids, it seemed like there are two ways to go plug in and non plug in, with the non plug in they have a small battery, which basically gets the car off the mark and then the ICE engine takes over which saves a bit on fuel the advantage is they don't cost a lot more than the pure ICE vehicle.
The plug in hybrids are able to be charged at home and because the battery isn't huge as in a pure E.V, the battery doesn't take a long time to charge. What I didn't like about them was I thought the battery in most of them was just that little bit too small to justify the extra cost over the equivalent ICE car. Most of them had around 10-13Kw batteries which could travel about 40klm give or take in pure E.V mode, the new Outlander is getting a 20Kw battery, that should get around 70klm in E.V mode which is more usable and could still easily be charged overnight from a normal outlet.
Then the issue became cost, the pricing for the new Outlander PHEV hasn't been announced, but comparing it to the superseded model I would think it will be in the region of $65k, which is the price of a long range E.V so it all becomes complicated IMO.

Thanks @sptrawler

When you think about it, cost is a major limiting factor atm, and it is not a small cost.

gg

 

[rederob]

Thus far for people in regional and rural Australia EV's are unrealistic due to high mileage needs and lack of charging. The prices quoted are out of peoples reach.

Prius seems to be the best and cheapest way for anyone to go, a hybrid with low fuel needs and an engine which continually recharges the battery, the latter being used most of the time to run the motor.

gg

There are several Chinese BEVs with over 1000km range already, but not available here yet. Last week I watched a review on a PHEV with 1300km range, which is a fair bit more than a Prius has to offer.

Battery technology is improving all the time, so I reckon the 400km range for BEVs which is a common offering will notch up to 600km by 2025. And most EV makers are offering "extended range" variants that can usually push this number up by 100 to 200km. It did cost me $3k to add an extra 100km, but I am sure that will come down significantly for LFP batteries as technology and km/kWh ratios improve.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

There are several Chinese BEVs with over 1000km range already, but not available here yet. Last week I watched a review on a PHEV with 1300km range, which is a fair bit more than a Prius has to offer.

Battery technology is improving all the time, so I reckon the 400km range for BEVs which is a common offering will notch up to 600km by 2025. And most EV makers are offering "extended range" variants that can usually push this number up by 100 to 200km. It did cost me $3k to add an extra 100km, but I am sure that will come down significantly for LFP batteries as technology and km/kWh ratios improve.

Good to know.

gg

 

[JohnDe]

There are several Chinese BEVs with over 1000km range already, but not available here yet. Last week I watched a review on a PHEV with 1300km range, which is a fair bit more than a Prius has to offer.

Battery technology is improving all the time, so I reckon the 400km range for BEVs which is a common offering will notch up to 600km by 2025. And most EV makers are offering "extended range" variants that can usually push this number up by 100 to 200km. It did cost me $3k to add an extra 100km, but I am sure that will come down significantly for LFP batteries as technology and km/kWh ratios improve.

NIO continues to tout the 1,000 km (621 miles) cruising range of the ET7, garnered from its 150 kWh battery pack. However, when we configure our own model through NIO’s WeChat, only the 100 kWh battery is available, offering 675 km (419 miles) range. Both ranges are impressive, although they are not EPA certified.

NIO rolls first batch of ET7 sedans off assembly line ahead of deliveries next week

NIO announced the first batch of ET7 sedans has rolled off its assembly line in Hefei, ahead of deliveries in China beginning March 28.

electrek.co

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

To avoid taking this thread off the EV subject I've posted a detailed comment with charts and actual real operational detail from today (Sunday) here:

The future of energy generation and storage

For reference, list of coal plant in the NEM (in order of age within states): Qld: Gladstone - 1680 MW owned primarily by a joint venture of Rio Tinto and NRG Energy and 10% by an assortment of other minor owners. Commissioned 1976. Tarong - 1400 MW owned by Stanwell Corporation. Commissioned...

www.aussiestockforums.com

In the context of charging an EV though, the short answer is that if you live in Vic or SA and you charged it during the roughly 8am - 2pm period today then the marginal source of generation, the one that ran versus not ran based on changing consumption, was indeed renewable.

That doesn't mean all fossil fuel plant was off, for reasons I've explained in that post, but if someone plugged in an EV and charged it then they added nothing to fuel combustion at all, they simply used some wind and solar that went to waste.

On the other hand, if they charged it later then depending on exactly what time that was the marginal source was some combination of coal, gas and hydro.

So the emissions which result from charging an EV is very much an "it depends" thing but broadly speaking if your aim is to reduce the quantity of fuel burned then charging at off-peak times beats charging at peak times. I've put the info in the other thread though since this one's about EV's not how to burn coal.

Thanks @Smurf1976

Very well presented content.

gg

 

[mullokintyre]

NIO rolls first batch of ET7 sedans off assembly line ahead of deliveries next week

NIO announced the first batch of ET7 sedans has rolled off its assembly line in Hefei, ahead of deliveries in China beginning March 28.

electrek.co

Like the look of the ES8, but unfortunately none of the NIO brands are slated to arrive in OZ until sometime in 2025 according to drive.com.au
Mick

 

[qldfrog]

With the hybrids GG, the new Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which is due here soon seems to tick a lot of boxes. When I was researching hybrids, it seemed like there are two ways to go plug in and non plug in, with the non plug in they have a small battery, which basically gets the car off the mark and then the ICE engine takes over which saves a bit on fuel the advantage is they don't cost a lot more than the pure ICE vehicle.
The plug in hybrids are able to be charged at home and because the battery isn't huge as in a pure E.V, the battery doesn't take a long time to charge. What I didn't like about them was I thought the battery in most of them was just that little bit too small to justify the extra cost over the equivalent ICE car. Most of them had around 10-13Kw batteries which could travel about 40klm give or take in pure E.V mode, the new Outlander is getting a 20Kw battery, that should get around 70klm in E.V mode which is more usable and could still easily be charged overnight from a normal outlet.
Then the issue became cost, the pricing for the new Outlander PHEV hasn't been announced, but comparing it to the superseded model I would think it will be in the region of $65k, which is the price of a long range E.V so it all becomes complicated IMO.

In term of practical use, a 70km range would be perfect, fully charge on own power and proper range, no anxiety cf stuck in countryside..and obviously benefitting from braking downhill in our hilly country.obviously cost is key.and still unable to do what i need in a car aka 4wd ute, but as second car

 

[rederob]

NIO rolls first batch of ET7 sedans off assembly line ahead of deliveries next week

NIO announced the first batch of ET7 sedans has rolled off its assembly line in Hefei, ahead of deliveries in China beginning March 28.

electrek.co

Real world outcome and still charge left to get to over 1000km!
Then there's the GAC AION LX Plus which is supposed to do the same, but I cannot find a real world test.
This is still 2021 battery tech in those cars, so just imagine the advances in coming years.

 

[JohnDe]

View attachment 140292
Real world outcome and still charge left to get to over 1000km!
Then there's the GAC AION LX Plus which is supposed to do the same, but I cannot find a real world test.
This is still 2021 battery tech in those cars, so just imagine the advances in coming years.

Impressive, though I don't understand how a 150 kWh battery at 16% equals only 42km range. The drivers charging experience is a sad example of what many will experience, unless they have a Tesla

 

[Value Collector]

Geez I haven't considered labour as a party for the working class since at least the 90's. The last election labour was almost decimated by the working class.

Most of the “working class” believe they are “middle class”, and in the last election Labor attacked the middle class, so they got smacked.

Labor forgot that if you try to initiate a class war, you have to make sure the people that you need to support you understand exactly which class they are in.

But the current state of Australia is that the upper working class believe they are middle class, while the actual middle class is focused on trying to become upper middle, and the upper middle are focused on trying to join the capitalist class.

Mean while the rest of the working class is kept in place by Alcohol, cigarettes and consumer debt,

The Alcohol and cigarettes keep the working class working longer, paying more taxes and shortens their years they are a burden to the pension system.

 

[rederob]

Mean while the rest of the working class is kept in place by Alcohol, cigarettes and consumer debt,

Not petrol?

 

[rederob]

Impressive, though I don't understand how a 150 kWh battery at 16% equals only 42km range.

As I understand it the screen shows that because it does not want the battery to run to zero.
I thought Tesla's - and all other - lithium ternary batteries lasted longer if kept in the 10 - 80% range rather than be fully charged or discharged?

I am a huge Tesla fan, but the BYD I have preordered will do everything I want and is a fair bit cheaper (not to mention will arrive sooner than any Tesla ordered!). As I will mostly charge at home I won't need anything like Tesla's excellent charging network to backstop me.

Over the weekend I read an article about Australia's low EV take up rate. What we all know now is that it has everything to do with not being able to get your hands on one, unless you want the substandard MG. Labor, if they get into power, need to get our house in order so that we are no longer shunned by so many manufacturers, and finally get some real and decent choice of models and price ranges.

 

[Value Collector]

As I understand it the screen shows that because it does not want the battery to run to zero.
I thought Tesla's - and all other - lithium ternary batteries lasted longer if kept in the 10 - 80% range rather than be fully charged or discharged?

I am a huge Tesla fan, but the BYD I have preordered will do everything I want and is a fair bit cheaper (not to mention will arrive sooner than any Tesla ordered!). As I will mostly charge at home I won't need anything like Tesla's excellent charging network to backstop me.

Over the weekend I read an article about Australia's low EV take up rate. What we all know now is that it has everything to do with not being able to get your hands on one, unless you want the substandard MG. Labor, if they get into power, need to get our house in order so that we are no longer shunned by so many manufacturers, and finally get some real and decent choice of models and price ranges.

It depends which Tesla battery you have in your car, if it’s the standard range Chinese made battery, it’s lithium Iron, so with that one you can run it 0% to 100% no problem all the time without extra degradation.

But if you have the Tesla battery with nickel instead of Iron, it’s best to not let your car sit above 90% or below 10% for to long.

There is no problem with charging up to 100%, right before you drive it, or running down to below 10% right before you charge it, it’s letting it sit at those high or low state of chargers that’s the problem.

 

[JohnDe]

Over the weekend I read an article about Australia's low EV take up rate. What we all know now is that it has everything to do with not being able to get your hands on one, unless you want the substandard MG. Labor, if they get into power, need to get our house in order so that we are no longer shunned by so many manufacturers, and finally get some real and decent choice of models and price ranges.

That old 'give us favourable incentive and discounts and we'll send more to your country' line.

No thanks.

I'm all for EVs but not at any cost. Labor haven't exactly explained how they're going to get more EVs here when there is a world shortage. Europe and the UK have always struggled with fuel prices, whereas the US and Australia have been quite stable. Maybe Labor are going to play with the cost of fuel to help pay for their promises?

Let the markets sort out supply, let the demand sort out the market. I do not agree with giving tax incentives which may or may not be passed on to consumers.

The money is better spent on infrastructure. I see that the Liberals are offering more infrastructure development assistance than Labor. Labor are going to give us a nurse in every retirement home 24/7, somehow.

Labor - "a $50,000 model (such as the Nissan Leaf) will be more than $2,000 cheaper as a result of removing the import tariff." What about the poor family who's car just died and they need to fix it or buy a cheap replacement? Why should they miss out on $2000 that is given to people that can afford a $50,000 car.

Give me infrastructure which will strengthen Australia, not gifts to corporations which will bankrupt us.

 

[JohnDe]

It depends which Tesla battery you have in your car, if it’s the standard range Chinese made battery, it’s lithium Iron, so with that one you can run it 0% to 100% no problem all the time without extra degradation.

But if you have the Tesla battery with nickel instead of Iron, it’s best to not let your car sit above 90% or below 10% for to long.

There is no problem with charging up to 100%, right before you drive it, or running down to below 10% right before you charge it, it’s letting it sit at those high or low state of chargers that’s the problem.

Correct.

I have the M3 LR with the higher capacity battery, the recommendation is for everyday charging up to 90% is recommended, for road trips 100% is fine. We do a lot of long distance trips, so quite a few 100% charges. So far no problems.

I've only got the M3 below 10% once or twice, there has always been a charging option.

2021 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD With 82 kWh Battery: Charging Analysis

Today we will take a look at the most recent fast charging test of the 2021 Tesla Model 3 Long Range version, conducted by Bjørn Nyland at a V3 Supercharger.

insideevs.com

 

[Value Collector]

Correct.

I have the M3 LR with the higher capacity battery, the recommendation is for everyday charging up to 90% is recommended, for road trips 100% is fine. We do a lot of long distance trips, so quite a few 100% charges. So far no problems.

I've only got the M3 below 10% once or twice, there has always been a charging option.

2021 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD With 82 kWh Battery: Charging Analysis

Today we will take a look at the most recent fast charging test of the 2021 Tesla Model 3 Long Range version, conducted by Bjørn Nyland at a V3 Supercharger.

insideevs.com

Nice, I often charge mine to 100% just before road trips to, that’s the good part about being able to set a charge time, I charge to 90% like usual, but then set it to start charging to 100% an hour or so before I plan to wake up for my trip, so it just hits 100% about when I am ready to leave.

During the road trip I keep it set to 100% too, so if I end up staying at any of the charge points a little longer along the way it will go up to 100%.

 

[rederob]

That old 'give us favourable incentive and discounts and we'll send more to your country' line.

No thanks.

It's about having a policy that prevents dumping of ICEVs that have poor emissions standards, rather than actual incentives.

I'm all for EVs but not at any cost.

The advantages of EVs are self explanatory, apart from being regularly presented in this thread, so the "any cost" idea has no legs.

Labor haven't exactly explained how they're going to get more EVs here when there is a world shortage. Europe and the UK have always struggled with fuel prices, whereas the US and Australia have been quite stable. Maybe Labor are going to play with the cost of fuel to help pay for their promises?

See my first comment.

Let the markets sort out supply, let the demand sort out the market. I do not agree with giving tax incentives which may or may not be passed on to consumers.

Markets don't make national policies.

The money is better spent on infrastructure. I see that the Liberals are offering more infrastructure development assistance than Labor. Labor are going to give us a nurse in every retirement home 24/7, somehow.

What money. There is no need for incentives. So why should there be infrastructure funding. Tesla rolled out their own! Major oil producers are now jumping into building EV charging stations overseas

Labor - "a $50,000 model (such as the Nissan Leaf) will be more than $2,000 cheaper as a result of removing the import tariff." What about the poor family who's car just died and they need to fix it or buy a cheap replacement? Why should they miss out on $2000 that is given to people that can afford a $50,000 car.

The relief is in tax being removed, not a monetary payment. In fact the tax was there to protect an industry we no longer have, so why is it still there?

Give me infrastructure which will strengthen Australia, not gifts to corporations which will bankrupt us.

You mean like JobKeeper, which gave away tens of billions and gave us nothing in return? And which the government refused to chase down billions in outflows to businesses not eligible! How come we are not bankrupt?

 

[JohnDe]

It's about having a policy that prevents dumping of ICEVs that have poor emissions standards, rather than actual incentives.

Classic scare mongering tactics. Where are these 'poor emissions' ICEVs going to come from? Australian standards is Euro 6 emissions meaning every new car since 2015 must meet that standard to get registration approval. Europe, the largest market in the world, is introducing Euro 7 emissions. Eventually any manufacturer wanting to sell into Europe will have to meet that standard, Australia usually follows. We will see les polluting vehicles imported as the world moves away from Diesel and towards Euro 7 emissions, electric and hydrogen.

The advantages of EVs are self explanatory, apart from being regularly presented in this thread, so the "any cost" idea has no legs.

Smoke and mirrors. Yes, EV's are cheaper to run and maintain, I've said so many times. My statement "I'm all for EVs but not at any cost" is about the cost to tax payers that can least afford a new car; why should they miss out on the $2000 tax cut for $50,000 EVs. And if we start giving it to all, how will that help a family starting out that do not have the money to buy a new car?

See my first comment.

Your first comment does not even come close to answering anything I said there. More smoke and mirrors. If there is a world shortage there will be no more EV's coming here because of a "$2000" tax cut, not unless the manufacturer gets to keep that money which increases their profit.

Markets don't make national policies.

Markets, the people do influence national policy.

What money. There is no need for incentives. So why should there be infrastructure funding. Tesla rolled out their own! Major oil producers are now jumping into building EV charging stations overseas

Exactly. But you called for incentives for EV manufacturers to bring cars here, which includes dropping tax revenue. I'd rather manufacturers spend some of their profits to build infrastructure, but if any incentives are going to be offered I'd rather it on infrastructure rather than to vehicle manufacturers sales. Infrastructure can be used for decades, it improves and strengthens the country in many ways and offers more people a benefit than a discount on a car.

The relief is in tax being removed, not a monetary payment.

Yes, tax revenue being removed which needs to be made up from somewhere else. A tax discount that the wealthy can take but someone/family misses out on because they have other priorities to spend their limited income on. Whereas an infrastructure build creates jobs, which creates wealth, and is will be accessible over a long period of time allowing people to catch up and benefit.

You mean like JobKeeper, which gave away tens of billions and gave us nothing in return? And which the government refused to chase down billions in outflows to businesses not eligible! How come we are not bankrupt?

I don't know, is that the same as the School Halls incentive, or the home insulation scheme?