Electric cars?

[SirRumpole]

Very much like planes, where most crashes are caused by pilots, but there is no way people will like the idea of flying overseas, or even interstate without a pilot. ?
It is a comfort zone thing, self driving trains are o.k, because we put in the tracks and it can only go where the tracks go, so we have some control.
With self driving cars or planes, they can go where the hell they like, we don't like that, it isn't comfortable. ?

I doubt if automation would have saved QF32, but pilots are far more capable than the average driver so its better that most drivers are taken out of the equation as much as possible. There will always be hoons who want to do 0-100 kmh in 2 seconds all the time and I can see a new 'supercar' outcry like we had in the 70's with 'concerned citizens' calling for the end of high performance EVS.

 

[moXJO]

Is this thing legit?

Save fuel with hydrogen HHO generators and engine controllers

Fuel savers. HHO Hydrogen generators and electronics to save fuel in all diesel and gasoline engines. Guaranteed improvement in fuel economy.

www.hho-1.com

I'm starting to think something like the above or straight out hydrogen will make more sense then evs alone.

I'm reading that it's a scam

 

[SirRumpole]

Very much like planes, where most crashes are caused by pilots, but there is no way people will like the idea of flying overseas, or even interstate without a pilot. ?

 

[rederob]

I doubt if automation would have saved QF32, but pilots are far more capable than the average driver so its better that most drivers are taken out of the equation as much as possible. There will always be hoons who want to do 0-100 kmh in 2 seconds all the time and I can see a new 'supercar' outcry like we had in the 70's with 'concerned citizens' calling for the end of high performance EVS.

Given that we have had Teslas doing 0-100km/h in around 3 seconds for some years now and there has been no outcry, I don't think we will have a problem on that front. Moreover, with the pace of technology outstripping our brains it won't be too many years before all vehicles are tracked and the need for speed guns and radar units disappear and there is an automatic withdrawal from our bank account into State Revenue!

Regarding autonomous driving though, with FLIR and LIDAR plus a range of other present sensors in vehicles there is no way a single driver has anywhere near the awareness that technology now offers, nor the reactions time. Moreover, as more and more millions of kilometres of data on driving experiences are racked up by proposed autonomous driving packages, machine learning will ensure there are levels of safety inbuilt to the software that uses decision making trees that give the most safe outcome to the trickiest situations in fractions of a second. The only issue beyond that is the level of redundancy needed to deal with system failure - a bit like how we all can backup our PCs so we don't lose everything.

 

[SirRumpole]

Given that we have had Teslas doing 0-100km/h in around 3 seconds for some years now and there has been no outcry, I don't think we will have a problem on that front.

With the tiny amount of EV's on the road now this is not an issue. Yes, I agree that the authoritarian State will continue to invade our personal liberties and track our every movement for revenue to replace fuel tax and speeding offences etc. Of course regulations will ensure that self drive software never exceeds the speed limit, so there will be increased mileage tax to replace that lost revenue as well !

 

[rederob]

With the tiny amount of EV's on the road now this is not an issue. Yes, I agree that the authoritarian State will continue to invade our personal liberties and track our every movement for revenue to replace fuel tax and speeding offences etc. Of course regulations will ensure that self drive software never exceeds the speed limit, so there will be increased mileage tax to replace that lost revenue as well !

States will actually save billions in each year as a result of less road trauma and lesser hospitalisation costs by both number and duration. Rehabilitation costs will also decrease significantly. Also, as often mentioned in this thread, cleaner air will further improve health and decrease workplace absences.

Productivity will also increase, thereby improving international competitiveness. The pluses of the EV transition to our economy warrant much greater incentivisation, yet are ignored by our present federal government.

 

[Value Collector]

With the tiny amount of EV's on the road now this is not an issue. Yes, I agree that the authoritarian State will continue to invade our personal liberties and track our every movement for revenue to replace fuel tax and speeding offences etc. Of course regulations will ensure that self drive software never exceeds the speed limit, so there will be increased mileage tax to replace that lost revenue as well !

To be honest I will just be happy when the majority of vehicles are EV just because the noise of petrol cars is obnoxious.

Hoons will always be hoons, but atleast they will be quite.

 

[SirRumpole]

To be honest I will just be happy when the majority of vehicles are EV just because the noise of petrol cars is obnoxious.

Hoons will always be hoons, but atleast they will be quite.

Quiet so !

Anyone with a brain recognises the benefits of EV's and their advantages over ICE vehicles and that they will be the dominant vehicle in as soon as 20 years and the sooner the better.

However as I've said before, it's a matter of whether our government gives sufficient incentives to allow adequate numbers of vehicles into the country at affordable prices with sufficient infrastructure to service their charging requirements and maybe even producing parts for them instead of importing everything.

I'm not confident that the current government is really tuned into the vibe of the EV revolution, hopefully others may be, but this is a technical thread not a political one, so I'll leave it there.

 

[sptrawler]

What is this idea of
a lot of energy is wasted doing h2 from electricity..not really true as fars i remember, all this energy is retrieved the other way when generating electricity from h2?
Note i can not check much here now but i think this is true.
After whether we use h2 in ice would indeed add the losses of ice but considering you do not have toine lithium, just use pure h2...i doubt there is a fundamental issue there.
Not part of the talk and replacing fuel in your car by ammonia does not give billions profits to Musk or WEC but otherwise pretty good bet in term of not producing CO2..if this was the aim

Very roughly, a new electrolysis plant today delivers energy efficiency of around 80%. That is, the energy value of the hydrogen produced is about 80% of the electricity used to split the water molecule.
They are improving all the time, when I was in my apprenticeship the electrolyser we used at the power station from memory was 30% efficient.
Also if the amount of renewables generate more power than can be used or stored, then hydrogen production and efficiency becomes a moot point, you might as well make hydrogen as waste the available energy.
As I've said since the beginning of this thread, I think battery E.V's will be a stop gap, until H2 production reduces the cost of production to make it competitive. There will be a problem with battery materials same as every other resource it is finite, hydrogen is extremely plentiful so IMO it is only a matter of time, but that is what we all will run out of and why I'm buying an EV now.

 

[sptrawler]

I'm reading that it's a scam

Gas injection in diesels has been around for a long time, I had LPG injection on a 1996 Land Rover Discovery, when they say it increases you fuel range that's true.
But it all boils back to how much you pay for the fuel, the installation and the amount of extra distance you get. The LPG injection on the LR really wasn't worth the installation cost.
The same will go for this electrolyser, how much does it cost to buy, how much hydrogen does it make and how much does that hydrogen improve your consumption.
Looking at the size of the water bottle, I wouldn't think much H2 would be produced, but hey who knows.

 

[moXJO]

Gas injection in diesels has been around for a long time, I had LPG injection on a 1996 Land Rover Discovery, when they say it increases you fuel range that's true.
But it all boils back to how much you pay for the fuel, the installation and the amount of extra distance you get. The LPG injection on the LR really wasn't worth the installation cost.
The same will go for this electrolyser, how much does it cost to buy, how much hydrogen does it make and how much does that hydrogen improve your consumption.
Looking at the size of the water bottle, I wouldn't think much H2 would be produced, but hey who knows.

Apparently the energy to make the gas is equal to the amount of energy it provides. So unless it's created by solar or something it's supposedly a waste of time.

 

[sptrawler]

Apparently the energy to make the gas is equal to the amount of energy it provides. So unless it's created by solar or something it's supposedly a waste of time.

Yes sounds about right, all you get is the extra distance that amount of H2 generates into usable fuel, with the LPG injection it would have been better and cheaper just putting in a long range tank, but it was an interesting exercise.

 

[Value Collector]

Apparently the energy to make the gas is equal to the amount of energy it provides. So unless it's created by solar or something it's supposedly a waste of time.

Yep, it falls into the perpetual motion fallacy, it would require an external energy source, because if it’s capturing energy from the system it’s meant to be powering, you will lose more than you create.

Mythbusters did a show on this exact gadget, they built one and tested it, and the car with the device had reduced mileage.

If it worked to capture energy that would normally be lost eg like regen braking then it would be different, but that’s not how it works.

 

[sptrawler]

Interesting idea by suggested by the French, low income E.V leasing scheme, I look forward to reading the details if it eventuates.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...o-wean-drivers-off-gasoline?srnd=premium-asia
The French president pledged to develop a state-sponsored EV leasing program for low-income households if he wins re-election next month. The proposal was part of a 4-hour-long pitch to voters unveiled at a press conference on Thursday outside Paris.

 

[SirRumpole]

Quiet so !

Anyone with a brain recognises the benefits of EV's and their advantages over ICE vehicles and that they will be the dominant vehicle in as soon as 20 years and the sooner the better.

However as I've said before, it's a matter of whether our government gives sufficient incentives to allow adequate numbers of vehicles into the country at affordable prices with sufficient infrastructure to service their charging requirements and maybe even producing parts for them instead of importing everything.

I'm not confident that the current government is really tuned into the vibe of the EV revolution, hopefully others may be, but this is a technical thread not a political one, so I'll leave it there.

Following on a bit, I see no reason why an enlightened Australian government shouldn't approach Elon with a proposal to produce Tesla vehicles in Australia, along the lines that the government will pay the up front cost of the production facilities, factories , assembly lines, robots etc which we then own and lease back to Tesla for a percentage of the sale price of each car produced.

That will relieve Tesla of a large capital investment, while giving the taxpayers ownership of a valuable asset which we could lease to someone else if Musk chose to depart.

Win-win I'd say ?

 

[rederob]

Following on a bit, I see no reason why an enlightened Australian government shouldn't approach Elon with a proposal to produce Tesla vehicles in Australia, along the lines that the government will pay the up front cost of the production facilities, factories , assembly lines, robots etc which we then own and lease back to Tesla for a percentage of the sale price of each car produced.

That will relieve Tesla of a large capital investment, while giving the taxpayers ownership of a valuable asset which we could lease to someone else if Musk chose to depart.

Win-win I'd say ?

Why Tesla?
There are more affordable EVs.

Anyway, these arrangements need to be thoroughly thought through. For starters we no longer have a supply chain, so who sorts that out? Batteries and chips could be problematic.
Why would a cloned "x"EV produced here be cheaper, or even as well manufactured given we have little expertise?
The NEV market is going to get more competitive over time, so we might be buying into a white elephant.

We don't have the ability to scale production to efficiencies which can be reached overseas. Speaking of which, getting anything made here to overseas markets adds extra costs.

I'm struggling to see who wins.

 

[SirRumpole]

Why Tesla?
There are more affordable EVs.

Anyway, these arrangements need to be thoroughly thought through. For starters we no longer have a supply chain, so who sorts that out? Batteries and chips could be problematic.
Why would a cloned "x"EV produced here be cheaper, or even as well manufactured given we have little expertise?
The NEV market is going to get more competitive over time, so we might be buying into a white elephant.

We don't have the ability to scale production to efficiencies which can be reached overseas. Speaking of which, getting anything made here to overseas markets adds extra costs.

I'm struggling to see who wins.

Tesla was just an example. If other manufacturers were interested they could jump in. The point is that we don't have to re-invent the wheel, we piggyback on a developed product.

The Australian consumer wins because we get first crack at cars made here, not picking up the dregs until other markets have been satisfied.

 

[Value Collector]

Following on a bit, I see no reason why an enlightened Australian government shouldn't approach Elon with a proposal to produce Tesla vehicles in Australia, along the lines that the government will pay the up front cost of the production facilities, factories , assembly lines, robots etc which we then own and lease back to Tesla for a percentage of the sale price of each car produced.

That will relieve Tesla of a large capital investment, while giving the taxpayers ownership of a valuable asset which we could lease to someone else if Musk chose to depart.

Win-win I'd say ?

The only problem I see is that 90% of the production would have to be exported to make the factory viable, and the closet market is Asia, So it makes more sense for the factory to be in Asia, where only 10% of the production needs to be exported here.

How much $$$ worth of subsidy each year needs to be applied to over come that natural disadvantage I don’t know, and I don’t know if the average Aussie would be happy subsidising Tesla, which ever party adopted the plan would be killed in the negative media generated by the other side.

 

[rederob]

Tesla was just an example. If other manufacturers were interested they could jump in. The point is that we don't have to re-invent the wheel, we piggyback on a developed product.

The Australian consumer wins because we get first crack at cars made here, not picking up the dregs until other markets have been satisfied.

Assuming it was policy - which it's not - then the lead time to have something coming off a production line would be 2 years minimum.
That's also assuming every aspect of the supply chain was in place.
By then we will be spoiled for choice here, although we may still need to pre-order for certain models due to most cars overseas being made for LHD markets.
But this is the biggest impediment:

The only problem I see is that 90% of the production would have to be exported to make the factory viable, and the closet market is Asia, So it makes more sense for the factory to be in Asia, where only 10% of the production needs to be exported here.

 

[SirRumpole]

The only problem I see is that 90% of the production would have to be exported to make the factory viable

What gives you that idea ?

We once had 3 manufacturers servicing a market much smaller than today.