Electric cars?

[Value Collector]

First, all the fuel companies will be able to work out the cost benefit of installing chargers at their present service stations as they can get a price to install the necessary site infrastructure before making a decision.
Second, the charging habits of drivers will be significantly different for BEVS than for ICEVs. That is, the number of service stations in metro areas may not need to be as large as it presently is for ICEVs as the majority of NEV drivers will mostly overnight charge at home.
Thirdly, and a "however," the very nature of charging stations is different in that a vehicle may be parked up to an hour to get fully charged. So the size layout should be different, as an example:
View attachment 139018
During the transition to NEVs it will be interesting to see how many existing service stations survive, and where they survive. As it stands the large BP style service stations that integrate around a dozen food and drink outlets along highway routes look like being easily reconfigured to accommodate large numbers of NEVs.
My Car, who will be servicing BYDs, has undertaken to progressively roll out charging stations at all their major shopping centre locations.

Yep I agree with all those points,

One point to mention though, is that very few people will be charging From 0% - 100%, most people that have home charging available might only be stopping for as little as 3 mins just to pick up that extra 10% to get them home where they will do their main charge, or if are on a longer road trip they will charge for 15mins or so to get to 80% to get them down the road for another 4 hours of driving, they won’t waste time waiting for that last 20%

When people say it takes 1 hour to charge an EV, that’s only because it’s that last 20% that takes 30 mins or so because the charge rate slows right down the closer you get to 100% in my experience no one really bothers charging to 100% at public chargers, unless they happen to have found a good place for lunch that keeps them busy.

 

[Value Collector]

Coal can be turned into oil.

I don't know the economics, only that its possible.

One thing we do have is coal, might as well use it.

It’s more efficient to turn it into electricity, but with climate change threats, in reality we are going to have to leave most of it in the ground.

 

[SirRumpole]

It’s more efficient to turn it into electricity, but with climate change threats, in reality we are going to have to leave most of it in the ground.

Possibly, but if the economy is stuffed, people will be screaming for a solution and have the pollies got enough courage to tell them that we haven't got the oil and we can't get enough ev's, so start walking folks.

 

[Value Collector]

On one hand I agree fully.

On the other hand I do have concerns about the impact of current fuel pricing on those less well off.

Petrol (91) and diesel both cost 221.9 at my nearest service station at present. For me that's a bit "yeah, whatever" since I'm not using much of it and can afford the price but I can see that for some it's going to be a very real issue when added to other consumer prices also rising.

I think the whole issue needs to be looked at really. Starting with the most fundamental of the lot - why do roads cost what they do in the first place? I say that being aware of some rather "interesting" discrepancies, things that cost triple in one place what they do in another , so I don't think that just paying whatever it costs and levying excise to fund it is really the right way. A deeper look at the whole question is warranted in my view. There's no point turning up the bath taps if you haven't put the plug in.

I imagine that the low income families will first start restricting the amount of non essential driving they do, eg maybe cutting out the trips to the beach or to visit Nanna.

Then, after that it will other areas that begin to get cut, eg maybe Netflix is paused, maybe less alcohol get drunk, less takeaway etc.

atleast that’s the way I would do it, except maybe I wouldn’t cut out Nanna.

 

[JohnDe]

Possibly, but if the economy is stuffed, people will be screaming for a solution and have the pollies got enough courage to tell them that we haven't got the oil and we can't get enough ev's, so start walking folks.

We're not going to run out of fuel, however the cost will continue to rise. Manufacturing oil from coal is not going to reduce the price, it will only contribute to higher cost.

We can either put our heads in the sand and wait until we're forced ti take action. or we can start now and prepare for an electric future. It does not matter what Australian consumers of vehicles want, EVs are here and nothing will slow it down.

Oil will continue to be part of industry but its days of being the main fuel for consumers is dwindling.

 

[Value Collector]

Possibly, but if the economy is stuffed, people will be screaming for a solution and have the pollies got enough courage to tell them that we haven't got the oil and we can't get enough ev's, so start walking folks.

As I described above I believe prices rises naturally make people become more efficient in the way they use the resource, and after that more efficient in the way they use other resources.

 

[SirRumpole]

We can either put our heads in the sand and wait until we're forced ti take action. or we can start now and prepare for an electric future. It does not matter what Australian consumers of vehicles want, EVs are here and nothing will slow it down.

I certainly agree EV's are the way to go, the problem will be satisfying the demand.

 

[JohnDe]

I certainly agree EV's are the way to go, the problem will be satisfying the demand.

I don't think that it is a race, the world vehicle manufacturers have 5 to 8 years to keep increasing production.

Tesla's Berlin factory starts full production at the end of the month, the Texas factory not long after that, and the China factory is being expanded. Tesla is going to be producing a lot of EVs very soon.

VW are investing billions to get their EV production up and running ASAP. Ford have announced changes that will see ICE production change to EV production, Toyota have finally jumped in and so on.

EV introduction is a bit like the film roll camera and the digital camera, no one liked digital, the quality wasn't there, and no one wanted a digital camera. How many traditional film camera are made today?

The pace of EV introduction is just right at the moment.

 

[qldfrog]

Let's do a sacrilege in that thread
With 98% of cars sold today being ICE plus enormous already existing fleet; if we were REALLY trying to reduce oil use, wouldn't be the obvious brainless best way to use green oil in ICE?
Convert ICE engine to burn :
ammonia made with green H2...works for container ships, heavy trucks power stations,etc

synthetic fuel : adding atmospheric C4 to green H2 and bob is your uncle..not that easy but doable and done, and not sure for diesel but we can use vegetable oil for diesels bio fuel

Nothing change in the whole user/ distribution chain, only at the few refineries
The advantage of this is you do not have to change much, which probably means it is its biggest drawback: no money there to be made and no societal change
The Reset needs change

 

[qldfrog]

For anyone looking for info about that:

Synthetic fuel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The whole synfiel came to my mind after reading

I certainly agree EV's are the way to go, the problem will be satisfying the demand.

In the same way as CC caused by CO2 has been sold as a fact, now we are sold that we have to change our car to an EV...even if we do not have enough lithium mined in the world to replace existing ICE fleet.....
Yes some people will have to walk and i guess it will not be the Davos clique

 

[qldfrog]

Ok, let's go back to EVs which are exciting technically

 

[Smurf1976]

A lot of production is condensate (a very light crude and by-product of national gas production). While it could be processed into fuel in an emergency, it is typically not considered commercially viable

Refining condensate alone directly into petrol etc isn't particularly viable I agree and most refineries aren't set up to do so.

Condensate ultimately is refined into fuel however, it's just blended with heavier oil in order to do it so it's still of value as such just not by itself but it still adds to the liquid fuel supply in total.

Noting that I'm in no way advocating that we use oil rather than EV's but I do advocate an "all the above" approach to reducing reliance on supplies from problematic countries.

 

[qldfrog]

Refining condensate alone directly into petrol etc isn't particularly viable I agree and most refineries aren't set up to do so.

Condensate ultimately is refined into fuel however, it's just blended with heavier oil in order to do it so it's still of value as such just not by itself but it still adds to the liquid fuel supply in total.

Noting that I'm in no way advocating that we use oil rather than EV's but I do advocate an "all the above" approach to reducing reliance on supplies from problematic countries.

I would just say that EVs move that issue from " problematic countries" to "problematic country".the one so big no ones dares naming it in Australia ?
In term of risk management, not ideal ROL

 

[basilio]

Yet another big move in battery technology. This time the development of sodium ion batteries that are cheaper, safre and as/more powerful than lithium iron. They can be produce on the same production lines.

CATL says production will be from 2023. Another opportunity to reduce battery costs for vehicle and stationary applications. Well worth a look IMV

 

[JohnDe]

Refining condensate alone directly into petrol etc isn't particularly viable I agree and most refineries aren't set up to do so.

Condensate ultimately is refined into fuel however, it's just blended with heavier oil in order to do it so it's still of value as such just not by itself but it still adds to the liquid fuel supply in total.

Noting that I'm in no way advocating that we use oil rather than EV's but I do advocate an "all the above" approach to reducing reliance on supplies from problematic countries.

Refining condensate is not going to alleviate the original problem mentioned a few posts ago - the ever increasing price of fuel.

Australian oil is of poor quality, yes it can be refined into a fuel but at what cost? The cost will be higher than it is currently to import fuel, even as crude oil prices increase.

The only benefit we'd have by using our oil to make expensive fuel is that we would be self reliant, for a very short few years.

It's not as if we haven't had warning signs of this happening. There was the oil shock of the 1970's and the Gulf war. There is always something happening that endangers our oil supplies.

Until now we have been at the mercy of oil nations. Now we have the resources and know-how to become self reliant.

Electricity is the future. We either get on he bandwagon now or wait for the dregs in 10 years.

 

[SirRumpole]

Refining condensate is not going to alleviate the original problem mentioned a few posts ago - the ever increasing price of fuel.

Australian oil is of poor quality, yes it can be refined into a fuel but at what cost? The cost will be higher than it is currently to import fuel, even as crude oil prices increase.

The only benefit we'd have by using our oil to make expensive fuel is that we would be self reliant, for a very short few years.

It's not as if we haven't had warning signs of this happening. There was the oil shock of the 1970's and the Gulf war. There is always something happening that endangers our oil supplies.

Until now we have been at the mercy of oil nations. Now we have the resources and know-how to become self reliant.

Electricity is the future. We either get on he bandwagon now or wait for the dregs in 10 years.

All true, but unless evs are built in Australia we will be reliant on others for those as well and we will be picking up the dregs until the low hanging fruit of the US, European , Japanese and Chinese markets are picked.

 

[JohnDe]

All true, but unless evs are built in Australia we will be reliant on others for those as well and we will be picking up the dregs until the low hanging fruit of the US, European , Japanese and Chinese markets are picked.

There is no phone manufactured in Australia, or prime movers, most heavy machinery comes from overseas. I don’t see what the difference is with EVs, Norway doesn’t have a vehicle manufacturer.

We will have no problem getting quality EVs service into the country, unless there’s a world war but then we’ll have more pressing issues to contend with.

 

[SirRumpole]

There is no phone manufactured in Australia, or prime movers, most heavy machinery comes from overseas. I don’t see what the difference is with EVs, Norway doesn’t have a vehicle manufacturer.

We will have no problem getting quality EVs service into the country, unless there’s a world war but then we’ll have more pressing issues to contend with.

Kenworth has been manufacturing trucks in Baywater since 1971 and as far as I know is still doing so, Volvo and Mack also manufacture in Australia.

 

[JohnDe]

Kenworth has been manufacturing trucks in Baywater since 1971 and as far as I know is still doing so, Volvo and Mack also manufacture in Australia.

Just like We had with Mitsubishi, Nissan, Ford, Toyota, Holden, Leyland, all owned by overseas corporations holding tax payers to their mercy of tax breaks & incentives. Yeah that’s fun.

 

[SirRumpole]

Just like We had with Mitsubishi, Nissan, Ford, Toyota, Holden, Leyland, all owned by overseas corporations holding tax payers to their mercy of tax breaks & incentives. Yeah that’s fun.

Every country in the world subsidises car manufacturers, you would be a fool not to believe so.