Electric cars?

[sptrawler]

I agree current Electric models are more expensive than the cheapest ICE, but a lot of people are already buying expensive ICE cars anyway, for them the transition would be easy.

Also, the more a person drives the higher their fuel and maintenance costs each month and hassle of refuelling, So if someone is driving long distances daily commuting to work, the cheaper the EV option becomes they may even be able to borrow an extra $30,000 for the EV and still have lower monthly expenses than if they bought an ICE car depending on how far you drive.

Range anxiety is still an issue, whether it is a problem or not doesnt matter, people can get a cheaper car that doesnt have range anxiety and costs half the price.
The car I just ordered is costing $67k I could have bought it in Ice for $33k, the difference is a $hit load of fuel.

 

[Value Collector]

Range anxiety is still an issue, whether it is a problem or not doesnt matter, people can get a cheaper car that doesnt have range anxiety and costs half the price.
The car I just ordered is costing $67k I could have bought it in Ice for $33k, the difference is a $hit load of fuel.

Range Anxiety is for people that don’t actually own electric cars, haha.

It’s one of those problems that’s invented in the minds of the inexperienced and people ignorant of the actual realities.

it’s sister conditions is charging time anxiety.

The truth of the situation in most cases is that it will be petrol cars that find them selves running low on range most of the time, because the EV will begin the day with a full battery, but the petrol car will be steadily marching towards empty all the time until the owner notices and makes a special stop some where.

The ignorant ICE owner with charging time anxiety also thinks he is saving time by refuelling with petrol which only takes 10mins meanwhile the Ev owner only spends 20 seconds plugging in.

it’s like every fear ICE owners have about making the switch is actually the exact opposite in reality.
Are there people with unique situations the make Ev’s not an option? Yes of course, but much less than you would think.

 

[sptrawler]

I think people will change, wben it suits them and fits with their financial circumstances, it really is their business.

 

[Smurf1976]

Range Anxiety is for people that don’t actually own electric cars, haha.

It’s one of those problems that’s invented in the minds of the inexperienced and people ignorant of the actual realities.

Looking purely at my own situation:

I've driven the same ICE around most of Australia except Qld and NT. At no time was obtaining fuel a problem or requiring of any particular effort.

Only time I've ever encountered an issue with fuel anywhere was in the UK and even that was just a volume purchase limit that was more than sufficient in practice. Was a £40 limit from memory. That said, well something like a war could change that obviously. I mean if Russia ever got offside with the West for example.....

Vast majority of my life, cars have been parked outside in the open indeed the current house is the first one I've lived in as an adult where that isn't the case, there's a garage.

That latter point wouldn't be particularly unusual. I haven't seen any figures on it but the portion of cars that would be parked in a garage to which electricity is available, or could be easily made available, would be a long way below 100%. Those who can will charge when parked but the portion who rely on public chargers isn't going to be significant, there's an awful lot of cars that are parked on the street or an open driveway.

Public charging facilities are a business opportunity here, noting that existing service stations aren't necessarily well suited as locations.

 

[sptrawler]

So when are you picking up an EV @Smurf1976 ? It may well compliment the house battery.

 

[Smurf1976]

So when are you picking up an EV @Smurf1976 ?

Picking it up sounds rather heavy.....

OK, poor humour aside the short answer is when I need a new car then I'll buy what makes sense at the time. I'd prefer that to be an EV but depends what's actually available at the time. 2025 possibly....

Noting that as a method of transport I actually use walking more than driving anyway, both in frequency and in terms of distance, so not a big issue there. Walking is mostly good for health.

 

[Value Collector]

Looking purely at my own situation:

I've driven the same ICE around most of Australia except Qld and NT. At no time was obtaining fuel a problem or requiring of any particular effort.

Only time I've ever encountered an issue with fuel anywhere was in the UK and even that was just a volume purchase limit that was more than sufficient in practice. Was a £40 limit from memory. That said, well something like a war could change that obviously. I mean if Russia ever got offside with the West for example.....

Vast majority of my life, cars have been parked outside in the open indeed the current house is the first one I've lived in as an adult where that isn't the case, there's a garage.

That latter point wouldn't be particularly unusual. I haven't seen any figures on it but the portion of cars that would be parked in a garage to which electricity is available, or could be easily made available, would be a long way below 100%. Those who can will charge when parked but the portion who rely on public chargers isn't going to be significant, there's an awful lot of cars that are parked on the street or an open driveway.

Public charging facilities are a business opportunity here, noting that existing service stations aren't necessarily well suited as locations.

As I said there will be some people with unique situations eg wanting to drive to remote locations regularly, but that’s not the norm.

saying that though, Tesla chargers can be placed outside in your driveway or attached to the side of your house if you park out side in an open driveway or car port, and the cable can be quite long to service multiple cars.

 

[mullokintyre]

As this is an EV thread, let's get back to EVs for a sec.
The 26 millions of Australians are brainwashed and pushed in thinking that ICEs are dead andwe all need to go back to lithium battery cars..as they will be the only options and will save the planet.
Good summary?
Now,i have a decent exposure to the world,you know, what's behind the sea. It does exist....
So currently in latin America :
Cars are obviously needed here, and there is NO WAY rhey will use EV in any major way in the next 2 decades.
Power is intermittent, tend to grill appliance regularily, cars are patched up,and when you earn $2 an hour for the rich countries,you are not going to buy a tesla or even a byd...
So from US Mexican borders to the tip of ushuya...no EV for the next generation..yet they will drive more and more cars.
Indian continent, Africa....same same...
Even China.....
Plenty of electric scooters,EV busses taxis .but the rising middle class is getting cars. And they are all small ICE. Mr XI is not going to anger 1.5 billion of his people because of CO2 supposedly warming the planet,
Something 1.2 billions Chinese freezing 6m a year would actually like....
I doubt that more than 20% of the world can even think of EV for any substantial portion of their fleet.
It could be worthwhile for Australia to take a break there.
Anyway,always remember the old dying first world is just a small part of our world and there are more important things for the planet than opening lithium mines
Population demography, deforestation, waste management, water access...more than a look at my "woke me" Tesla

These countries will end up like Cuba from the 70's onwards.
The west banned trade with Cuba so they had no access to used cars.
The cubans spent a lot of ingenuity keeping those old bangers going for years beyond their usefull life.
Because there will be no western manufacturers of ICE engined cars, these countries will have no ready supply, hence will rely on keeping old ICE engines going for years. The infrastructure and electricity supply is just not there(yet) to allow them to use EV's, even if these poorer countries could afford them.
I guess it may provide a supply for the "grey" market.
So many Japanese cars which are a statuary write off after ten years, end up in Pacific Island countries as well as African countries.
Perhaps they will find their way into South America as well.
Mick

 

[qldfrog]

These countries will end up like Cuba from the 70's onwards.
The west banned trade with Cuba so they had no access to used cars.
The cubans spent a lot of ingenuity keeping those old bangers going for years beyond their usefull life.
Because there will be no western manufacturers of ICE engined cars, these countries will have no ready supply, hence will rely on keeping old ICE engines going for years. The infrastructure and electricity supply is just not there(yet) to allow them to use EV's, even if these poorer countries could afford them.
I guess it may provide a supply for the "grey" market.
So many Japanese cars which are a statuary write off after ten years, end up in Pacific Island countries as well as African countries.
Perhaps they will find their way into South America as well.
Mick

I think you underestimate the commercial awareness of chinese and india companies, and if they can be smart, local partners of US and European brands with relocated factory lines

 

[mullokintyre]

I think you underestimate the commercial awareness of chinese and india companies, and if they can be smart, local partners of US and European brands with relocated factory lines

So you are suggesting that China and India will keep producing ICE engined cars in relocated US and European factories for export those countries without the infrastructure to support a large EV fleet?
Mick

 

[rederob]

The 26 millions of Australians are brainwashed and pushed in thinking that ICEs are dead andwe all need to go back to lithium battery cars..as they will be the only options and will save the planet.

Not really as Hydrogen may well take over from BEVs

So currently in latin America :
Cars are obviously needed here, and there is NO WAY rhey will use EV in any major way in the next 2 decades.

But EVs in Brazil are selling better than EVs in Australia.

Indian continent, Africa....same same...
Even China.....

Not good guesses. Tata are making NEVS in India and China is only second to Norway in NEV adoption.

Mr XI is not going to anger 1.5 billion of his people because of CO2 supposedly warming the planet,
Something 1.2 billions Chinese freezing 6m a year would actually like....

Chinese adoption of NEVs is now clearing the smog from many of their large cities and NEV purchasing trends up over 100% year on year.

I doubt that more than 20% of the world can even think of EV for any substantial portion of their fleet.

Taxi fleets are already early adopters.
I think you just made up everything you wrote as nothing was close to what is occurring.

 

[qldfrog]

So you are suggesting that China and India will keep producing ICE engined cars in relocated US and European factories for export those countries without the infrastructure to support a large EV fleet?
Mick

Not exactly, but yes they will still produce ICE cars both for themselves and for export to "3rd" world countries.
For the GE,VW, Toyota if they are smart and allowed by the masters, they will move their production lines and carry on ICE production directly under their names keeping the brands ..or rebadged under local brand names.
I doubt that will be allowed so once again,we will be fxxd by China as most of these brands will die to the slashing of the market size: with most of 1rst world people unable to buy an EV car, and the shorter EV car useful life.
How many smartphones are still used after 10y?
So this will be the same for EVs: batteries failure plus planned obsolescence.
A disaster in the making
The west is commiting suicide on a grand scale imho...but as we are told it is to save the planet....
Jab story got swallowed whole,so the CC one will go very smoothly

 

[Value Collector]

These countries will end up like Cuba from the 70's onwards.
The west banned trade with Cuba so they had no access to used cars.
The cubans spent a lot of ingenuity keeping those old bangers going for years beyond their usefull life.
Because there will be no western manufacturers of ICE engined cars, these countries will have no ready supply, hence will rely on keeping old ICE engines going for years. The infrastructure and electricity supply is just not there(yet) to allow them to use EV's, even if these poorer countries could afford them.
I guess it may provide a supply for the "grey" market.
So many Japanese cars which are a statuary write off after ten years, end up in Pacific Island countries as well as African countries.
Perhaps they will find their way into South America as well.
Mick

How hard is it to remove a petrol bowser and replace it with an EV charger? I don’t think installing the “Infrastructure” is going to be that hard, especially when you consider that ICE cars rely on public bowsers, so there is heaps of petrol stations, but most people will be charging at home, so less charging locations will be needed, and they can literally pop up anywhere basically over night, eg petrol stations can be incrementally converted, shopping centre car parks, highway rest stops etc you name it and you could put a charger there, not to mention every garage or driveway in australia.

 

[sptrawler]

How hard is it to remove a petrol bowser and replace it with an EV charger? I don’t think installing the “Infrastructure” is going to be that hard, especially when you consider that ICE cars rely on public bowsers, so there is heaps of petrol stations, but most people will be charging at home, so less charging locations will be needed, and they can literally pop up anywhere basically over night, eg petrol stations can be incrementally converted, shopping centre car parks, highway rest stops etc you name it and you could put a charger there, not to mention every garage or driveway in australia.

The new service stations being built in WA, seem to be configured to easily be converted, they also have several fast food outlets attached, yet atm they arent being heavily used.
They appear to be designed, in anticipation, when Im out that way I will take some photos and post them.

 

[qldfrog]

The new service stations being built in WA, seem to be configured to easily be converted, they also have several fast food outlets attached, yet atm they arent being heavily used.
They appear to be designed, in anticipation, when Im out that way I will take some photos and post them.

I noticed a new service station near Bli Bli being built indeed near a power line major infrastructure.
Would make sense if only as a risk mitigation

 

[Smurf1976]

Tesla chargers can be placed outside in your driveway or attached to the side of your house if you park out side in an open driveway or car port, and the cable can be quite long to service multiple cars.

They can but with all of this devil is in the detail.

If the charger's going on the house wall then easy.

If the charger's going out in the open 10+m away from the house, and it requires trenching through concrete to get the power to it, well that's a significant task to install it. Doubly so if the homeowner insists that no evidence of trenching work is permanently visible.

Etc. It's all down to case by case really.

 

[Smurf1976]

How hard is it to remove a petrol bowser and replace it with an EV charger? I don’t think installing the “Infrastructure” is going to be that hard

Totally depends.

Broadly speaking service stations are on main roads and HV electrical distribution feeders are also run down main roads. Broadly speaking because the existence of electrical infrastructure historically wasn't a consideration when siting a service station so the relationship is coincidental.

There are certainly service stations around where any kind of fast charger is going to require quite some work to get power to however. Not impossible to do it but far more $ than others.

The one nearest to me is in a good spot in that regard with overhead 11kV running right past and nothing other than grass separating that from the service station's property. Others won't be anywhere near so lucky.

 

[Value Collector]

They can but with all of this devil is in the detail.

If the charger's going on the house wall then easy.

If the charger's going out in the open 10+m away from the house, and it requires trenching through concrete to get the power to it, well that's a significant task to install it. Doubly so if the homeowner insists that no evidence of trenching work is permanently visible.

Etc. It's all down to case by case really.

I am not sure how common it is for people to park 10m away from their house, but you can get a Tesla charger with a 20ft cable on it, I would imagine that would reach the parking space of most people even if they had to attach it to the side of their house.

 

[Value Collector]

Totally depends.

Broadly speaking service stations are on main roads and HV electrical distribution feeders are also run down main roads. Broadly speaking because the existence of electrical infrastructure historically wasn't a consideration when siting a service station so the relationship is coincidental.

There are certainly service stations around where any kind of fast charger is going to require quite some work to get power to however. Not impossible to do it but far more $ than others.

The one nearest to me is in a good spot in that regard with overhead 11kV running right past and nothing other than grass separating that from the service station's property. Others won't be anywhere near so lucky.

I would imagine that installing some power infrastructure is no more difficult than installing new underground fuel tanks, which has to be done every so often at a fuel station.

Eg if a fuel an older fuel station wants to stay in business they eventually have to conduct major works to maintain their under ground fuel tanks, I would think switching to an electric location is probably less work.

There is also the option of installing batteries and solar, rather than have higher capacity feed in wires,

Eg the service stations current power infrastructure could be used to charge the stations batteries 24hrs a day, plus supplemented by solar, and the batteries used to charge cars, so stations might use this model to lower electricity cost anyway, by buying power at off peak times.

 

[sptrawler]

Didn't some of the State Governments put a mileage tax on EV's, because they say they are going to lose fuel excise tax? As the fuel excise is a Federal tax not a State tax, I wish they were more transparent as to how they come to the figures they do.

High petrol prices hurt, but cutting excise would harm energy security

Proposals to cut Australia’s fuel excise will prolong an already alarming dependence on oil-based imports and undermine policies to shift the nation away from fossil fuels.

theconversation.com

It’s likely motorists will be paying more than $2.15 a litre for unleaded petrol within a few weeks.

In response, independent South Australian senator Rex Patrick has called on the federal government to halve the fuel excise on petrol for 12 months.
The fuel excise is a fixed amount, currently set at 44.2 cents a litre. Halving it would therefore knock 22.1 cents off the price of petrol.

That would certainly offer some relief at the bowser, and to the economy. It would not, however, serve Australia’s economic and national interests in the longer term.
Calls to cut fuel tax arise whenever Australian petrol prices rise. This is despite Australian taxes – the fuel excise plus 10% GST – being among the lowest rates in the OECD and making little contribution to price increases.

All GST revenue is distributed to state and territory governments. The fuel excise is (theoretically) levied to pay for Australia’s road infrastructure.
In 2019-20 the government collected A$5.6 billion from petrol and about $11.8 billion from diesel (much of which was reimbursed through diesel tax rebates).

The net revenue from all fuel excises, according to the Australian Automobile Association, is about $11 billion, a figure that hasn’t changed much for a decade.
Shifting away from fossil fuels to electric (and some hydrogen fuel-cell) vehicles is a key part of this. The Morrison government has acknowledged this with a target of 30% of all new car sales being electric by 2030. (Electric vehicles made up just under 2% of new car sales in 2021.)
While the government has committed $250 million to its Future Fuels and Vehicles Strategy to help achieve the target, its policy mostly depends on low-emissions vehicles achieving “pricing parity” with internal combustion engines by mid-decade, and for market forces to do the rest.

Slashing the fuel excise won’t do anything to help this plan become reality. It would also undermine state and territory government spending on policies to encourage the uptake of electric vehicles, through incentives such as stamp-duty waivers, free registration and rebates.