Electric cars?

[rederob]

Like I said,
That is probably true @rederob , but I would also think that most of the people who are currently buying or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work.

It isn't a pizzing competition it is an observation, why get all defensive buyers remorse? or just wanting positive reinforcement.

Hey, I'm not defensive about this topic.
I just don't know if there is anything anywhere about who is buying EVs and their primary use.
As the US survey posted above showed, early EV adopters were often save the planet types, until Teslas started whipping ICEVs on performance and technology. A lot of water now under the bridge with China now the major manufacturer of NEVs, including Teslas, and availability globally increasing at greater than 100% per year.
With such pitiful total ownership levels in Australia it's hard to know who would actually buy an EV if more models were available at more price points when the actual decision to buy another car was being made.
I am hoping BYD can get their Dolphin models into Australia for under $40k and for the first time show how good these cars are compared to ICEV equivalents. They are going into the UK market, so right hand drives are now being produced, which at least solves that production issue.

 

[sptrawler]

Again I NEVER SAID THERE WAS EVIDENCE, I SAID IT WAS MY BELIEF. What is wrong with people, no one can have an opinion of their own?
By the way this is Australia, the U.S may have a different demographic and EV infrastructure level than us.
They are using autonomous EV cabs in San Fransico, so using US data at this point in time seems pointless.

 

[JohnDe]

Hey, I'm not defensive about this topic.
I just don't know if there is anything anywhere about who is buying EVs and their primary use.
As the US survey posted above showed, early EV adopters were often save the planet types, until Teslas started whipping ICEVs on performance and technology. A lot of water now under the bridge with China now the major manufacturer of NEVs, including Teslas, and availability globally increasing at greater than 100% per year.
With such pitiful total ownership levels in Australia it's hard to know who would actually buy an EV if more models were available at more price points when the actual decision to buy another car was being made.
I am hoping BYD can get their Dolphin models into Australia for under $40k and for the first time show how good these cars are compared to ICEV equivalents. They are going into the UK market, so right hand drives are now being produced, which at least solves that production issue.

There are a few interesting surveys coming out, and I think there will be a lot more this year.

Driving range per charge​

​

Australian consumers consistently highlight that driving range is a key barrier in the transition to an electric vehicle. However, consumer perception of real driving range per charge varies widely. In 2020, almost 80% of respondents underestimated the driving range of an EV, with 57% believing that an electric vehicle had less than 300km driving range. Survey results this year, however, indicate that consumers have a more accurate understanding of the average driving range of an electric vehicle, with the majority of respondents (76%) believing that a full charge will deliver them a range of more than 300km. This is in line with the true average range of battery-electric vehicles in Australia (395km). Only 24% of respondents believe that an electric vehicle has less than 300km range on a full charge, which is a 33% positive change from 2020. Furthermore, 35% of respondents indicated that, on average, electric vehicles can travel more than 400km per full charge, compared to 21% in 2020, indicating that consumer perception of driving range per full charge is becoming more accurate.​

https://electricvehiclecouncil.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/2021-EVC-carsales-Consumer-attitudes-survey-web.pdf

 

[sptrawler]

I think as more infrastructure and more EV's are on the road people's perceptions will change, but I was only commenting about the current state of play.
The biggest selling car type in Australia, still hasn't got an EV equivalent, so how someone can make the assumption the greatest up take is with mainstream buyers I can't fathom.
Also how someone who thinks that most of the current uptake, is probably by people who don't use a car as an essential part of their life is wrong, I find a bit disingenuous.
Like I said @JohnDe how many of your friends, family or work mates own an EV? Or have ordered one?

From your above post, 43% would buy one for environmental reasons, I bet when they go in and check out the price unless they are retired or well paid, they wont pay the difference for environmental reasons.
The reality is people still have concerns and until those concerns are allayed, there will be hesitancy with people who can't afford to have their car stop and not get them to their destination on time, every time, that's why a lot more fast charging infrastructure is required.

It is also why I believe that only those who don't need to be anywhere at a certain time are quick to take up EV's, by the way it is strange you don't have two E.V's, one EV and one ICE seems a bit of a two way bet.

 

[JohnDe]

I think as more infrastructure and more EV's are on the road people's perceptions will change, but I was only commenting about the current state of play.
The biggest selling car type in Australia, still hasn't got an EV equivalent, so how someone can make the assumption the greatest up take is with mainstream buyers I can't fathom.
Also how someone who thinks that most of the current uptake, is probably by people who don't use a car as an essential part of their life is wrong, I find a bit disingenuous.
Like I said @JohnDe how many of your friends, family or work mates own an EV? Or have ordered one?

Why are you moving the goal posts? Your original statement, that I disagree with, is "but I would also think that most of the people who are currently buying or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work."

My wife and I are early adopters. All my friends, family and work mates that have had a drive of our Tesla have been flabbergasted. Most of them do not purchase new cars, they mostly source from the used car market. I have asked no one whether they have an EV or whether they are planning to buy one. A couple have mentioned that they will be buying an EV in the future.

Back to your original statement, as soon as someone buys an EV and becomes accustomed to it (within a few weeks) they use the EV like they would any ICEV they have had before. They drive it to work, they take it away on holidays, pick up the kids or grandchildren, they use it for business. There is nothing different about an EV other than charging rather than re-fueling. The range for everyday work is more than enough, power consumption is less for city and suburb driving than it is for highway use.

Fear is the biggest thing causing people to have incorrect perceptions, as the above Australian survey shows.

 

[JohnDe]

I think as more infrastructure and more EV's are on the road people's perceptions will change, but I was only commenting about the current state of play.
The biggest selling car type in Australia, still hasn't got an EV equivalent, so how someone can make the assumption the greatest up take is with mainstream buyers I can't fathom.
Also how someone who thinks that most of the current uptake, is probably by people who don't use a car as an essential part of their life is wrong, I find a bit disingenuous.
Like I said @JohnDe how many of your friends, family or work mates own an EV? Or have ordered one?

From your above post, 43% would buy one for environmental reasons, I bet when they go in and check out the price unless they are retired or well paid, they wont pay the difference for environmental reasons.
The reality is people still have concerns and until those concerns are allayed, there will be hesitancy with people who can't afford to have their car stop and not get them to their destination on time, every time, that's why a lot more fast charging infrastructure is required.

It is also why I believe that only those who don't need to be anywhere at a certain time are quick to take up EV's, by the way it is strange you don't have two E.V's, one EV and one ICE seems a bit of a two way bet.

There you go again, moving the goal posts by editing and adding new content.

" by the way it is strange you don't have two E.V's, one EV and one ICE seems a bit of a two way bet" Please expand your reasoning, tell me why you think like that?

 

[sptrawler]

Why are you moving the goal posts? Your original statement, that I disagree with, is "but I would also think that most of the people who are currently buying or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work."

My wife and I are early adopters. All my friends, family and work mates that have had a drive of our Tesla have been flabbergasted. Most of them do not purchase new cars, they mostly source from the used car market. I have asked no one whether they have an EV or whether they are planning to buy one. A couple have mentioned that they will be buying an EV in the future.

Back to your original statement, as soon as someone buys an EV and becomes accustomed to it (within a few weeks) they use the EV like they would any ICEV they have had before. They drive it to work, they take it away on holidays, pick up the kids or grandchildren, they use it for business. There is nothing different about an EV other than charging rather than re-fueling. The range for everyday work is more than enough, power consumption is less for city and suburb driving than highway use.

Fear is the biggest thing causing people to have incorrect perceptions, as the above Australian survey shows.

I'm not moving the goal posts, I stand by my statement, you said I was wrong.
You are yet to show me how I was wrong, all you have told me is that you are the only one you know with an E.V and you also have an ICE vehicle.
That tells me that either you are edging your bets for longer trips or towing, by having an ICE car, or the money, vehicle or infrastructure isn't there to enable you to get rid of the ICE car.
I know a few people with EV's and all of them don't really need to drive to work, the only one I know who works is an engineer who bought a Tesla and had a charger installed at work, the rest are either retired or semi retired.

 

[JohnDe]

I'm not moving the goal posts, I stand by my statement, you said I was wrong.
You are yet to show me how I was wrong, all you have told me is that you are the only one you know with an E.V and you also have an ICE vehicle.
That tells me that either you are edging your bets for longer trips or towing, by having an ICE cat, or the money, vehicle or infrastructure isn't there to enable you to get rid of the ICE car.
I know a few people with EV's and all of them don't really need to drive to work, the only one I know who works is an engineer who bought a Tesla and had a charger installed at work, the rest are either retired or semi retired.

Mate, you have an issue. Calm down.

FYI I own more than one ICEV, one I will never sell because it is an Aussie icon and I enjoy looking at it and driving it. Another is the last of an English built model that is interesting to me but will be moved on soon, the last one was my partners previous car which I'm keeping for a family member.

I don't want to buy another car, I'm instead using my disposable income to invest. If I had more than enough money I'd buy a block of land, build a shed and store my cars and buy another EV, but I can't. I live like most people that work or own a business, we buy a car for our needs and use it for those needs. Just like most EV owners that I meet on my travels, they use their EV just like anyone else, they drive to work, they pick up and deliver for their business, and so on.

 

[sptrawler]

You still haven't shown me where i was wrong in my statement, maybe if you showed a bit more courtesy, people wouldn't get annoyed.

 

[JohnDe]

You still haven't shown me where i was wrong in my statement, maybe if you showed a bit more courtesy, people wouldn't get annoyed

Again I NEVER SAID THERE WAS EVIDENCE, I SAID IT WAS MY BELIEF. What is wrong with people, no one can have an opinion of their own?

It seems that you have different rules.

My opinion is that your opinion is wrong. My opinion is that I, my partner and the majority of owners that we have had discussion with, use the EV for work and in exactly the same way that they used their previous car which was an ICEV. We all purchased an EV to replace an existing car and use in the exact same manner.

 

[sptrawler]

I never said you were wrong, I wouldn't be so presumptuous, without definitive data. That would be rude and show a complete lack of common courtesy, I would disagree with you and give reasons for my position.
My opening comment wouldn't be "Wrong", unless I knew for a fact I was right and new the other person was wrong, which neither of us does know.
It's like many things today, what used to be seen as common, is definitely no longer common.

 

[JohnDe]

It's like many things today, what used to be seen as common, is definitely no longer common.

Yes, you are correct.

 

[rederob]

Yes, you are correct.

The above is a bit like watching a tennis match between @JohnDe and @sptrawler: The service is called out by the lines person, to be overruled by the chair umpire, who is overruled on appeal to Hawke eye, so the server smashes his racquet on the ground, which bounces into the face of the receiver who retires hurt, causing the server to be disqualified.
Who won?

 

[rederob]

I am hoping BYD can get their Dolphin models into Australia for under $40k and for the first time show how good these cars are compared to ICEV equivalents. They are going into the UK market, so right hand drives are now being produced, which at least solves that production issue.

My YouTube suggestions of what to watch next threw this one to me:

I don't think enough will arrive to be called a "game changer," but at least it will put EVs into a price category that is affordable to the average wage earner.
Now all we need is GM to upgrade the Wuling Mini to our safety standards and get it here so we can have an offering under $20K.

 

[sptrawler]

My YouTube suggestions of what to watch next threw this one to me:

I don't think enough will arrive to be called a "game changer," but at least it will put EVs into a price category that is affordable to the average wage earner.
Now all we need is GM to upgrade the Wuling Mini to our safety standards and get it here so we can have an offering under $20K.

That would be perfect for the daughter, she does about 5,000klm/year, only travels locally in Perth, if she comes to Mandurah she leaves the car at the station in Perth and catches the train.
The house has 6.6Kw of solar on the roof, getting the 7cents feed in tariff, that car would work absolutely brilliantly for her and the grandkids.
Her 2009 Hyundai i30 is walking on thin ice, I've just had to replace the right rear window winding motor. ?
Which brings me to another point, why not go back to manual window winders on these cheap cars, cheap electric switches, motors and mechanisms isn't a plus for putting windows up and down IMO.

 

[mullokintyre]

Which brings me to another point, why not go back to manual window winders on these cheap cars, cheap electric switches, motors and mechanisms isn't a plus for putting windows up and down IMO.

I doubt many of the modern generation would know how to work a manual window winder.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

That is probably true @rederob , but I would also think that most of the people who are currently buying or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work.
The ones who will be buying currently, will be those who use the car as a convenience, like you or I who are retired, or VC who is basically retired, so we can use the car when we want and charge when we want and for as long as we want, because we aren't time constrained.
Until people can feel confident that they can get a fast charge, when they want it and anywhere they want it, most will er on the safe side which currently is ICE vehicles.
That is why I keep going back to the rollout of infrastructure, the same as only owners of houses will be the only ones to install a 7.5Kw fast charger, a tenant wont, therefore a tenant will want to know there are fast chargers in their neighborhood. Also they wont want to drive to it then have to line up in a queue.

I don’t know about that, I would think the majority of people that rely on their cars for work would still be doing less than 500km per day, so charging at home and starting with a full battery each day would be perfect for them.

And the more they drive the better off they are with an EV, because they would save hours each year of time they normally have to spend refueling.

even if there was the odd day you drove more than the cars range, you might only have to stop some where through out your day for as little as 3mins to pick up 10% or so to get home.

 

[qldfrog]

As this is an EV thread, let's get back to EVs for a sec.
The 26 millions of Australians are brainwashed and pushed in thinking that ICEs are dead andwe all need to go back to lithium battery cars..as they will be the only options and will save the planet.
Good summary?
Now,i have a decent exposure to the world,you know, what's behind the sea. It does exist....
So currently in latin America :
Cars are obviously needed here, and there is NO WAY rhey will use EV in any major way in the next 2 decades.
Power is intermittent, tend to grill appliance regularily, cars are patched up,and when you earn $2 an hour for the rich countries,you are not going to buy a tesla or even a byd...
So from US Mexican borders to the tip of ushuya...no EV for the next generation..yet they will drive more and more cars.
Indian continent, Africa....same same...
Even China.....
Plenty of electric scooters,EV busses taxis .but the rising middle class is getting cars. And they are all small ICE. Mr XI is not going to anger 1.5 billion of his people because of CO2 supposedly warming the planet,
Something 1.2 billions Chinese freezing 6m a year would actually like....
I doubt that more than 20% of the world can even think of EV for any substantial portion of their fleet.
It could be worthwhile for Australia to take a break there.
Anyway,always remember the old dying first world is just a small part of our world and there are more important things for the planet than opening lithium mines
Population demography, deforestation, waste management, water access...more than a look at my "woke me" Tesla

 

[sptrawler]

I don’t know about that, I would think the majority of people that rely on their cars for work would still be doing less than 500km per day, so charging at home and starting with a full battery each day would be perfect for them.

And the more they drive the better off they are with an EV, because they would save hours each year of time they normally have to spend refueling.

even if there was the odd day you drove more than the cars range, you might only have to stop some where through out your day for as little as 3mins to pick up 10% or so to get home.

I agree, but people who are in debt up to their ears arent going to be early adopters, if they require the car to keep their job, they will stick with an ice car.

 

[Value Collector]

I agree, but people who are in debt up to their ears arent going to be early adopters, if they require the car to keep their job, they will stick with an ice car.

I agree current Electric models are more expensive than the cheapest ICE, but a lot of people are already buying expensive ICE cars anyway, for them the transition would be easy.

Also, the more a person drives the higher their fuel and maintenance costs each month and hassle of refuelling, So if someone is driving long distances daily commuting to work, the cheaper the EV option becomes they may even be able to borrow an extra $30,000 for the EV and still have lower monthly expenses than if they bought an ICE car depending on how far you drive.