Electric cars?

[qldfrog]

Just my opinion, and it will take some time, but when companies like Michelin can see the opportunity, there obviously is one

Michelin is French so its approach is probably based more on a gov based incentive/tax computation than any raw capitalist ROI computation.
Same for the greening of European car manufacturers ...
Even EVs use tyres so Michelin should not be affected but the Reset wants to suppress cars and plane travel for the masses: the deplorable as Clinton says,the toothless as socialist french president Hollande said..
There is so much more behind that EV push than the fossil fuel story.
People here in Australia have no idea of the state intervention level in the EU and soon US.
Sadly history does repeat itself,and this always ends in tears when bureaucracy replace free entrepreneurship/real capitalism. Sure many people here will disagree...

 

[sptrawler]

Michelin is French so its approach is probably based more on a gov based incentive/tax computation than any raw capitalist ROI computation.
Same for the greening of European car manufacturers ...
Even EVs use tyres so Michelin should not be affected but the Reset wants to suppress cars and plane travel for the masses: the deplorable as Clinton says,the toothless as socialist french president Hollande said..
There is so much more behind that EV push than the fossil fuel story.
People here in Australia have no idea of the state intervention level in the EU and soon US.
Sadly history does repeat itself,and this always ends in tears when bureaucracy replace free entrepreneurship/real capitalism. Sure many people here will disagree...

Interesting point frog, I hadn't thought of it from the tax incentive angle.

 

[sptrawler]

This is interesting, it will be interesting to see how the installation of H2 refueling outlets goes, obviously Toyota and Hyundia are pretty serious about H2 EV's. I personally think they are a long way off, but obviously these car makers think there is a future.

2021 Toyota Mirai: Australia's first hydrogen car on sale to the public 'within a couple of years'

As soon as enough refuelling points are installed

www.drive.com.au

from the article:
Japanese car giant Toyota and South Korean conglomerate Hyundai launched hydrogen-car fleet trails in Australia within days of each other earlier this month – though the latter was first to register its fleet locally.
However, Toyota is already gearing up to make the Mirai hydrogen car available for the public to buy within two to three years from now.
In the meantime, Toyota and Hyundai are only allowing specialised fleets to run its test vehicles in trail scenarios, as there is only one refuelling point in Canberra and one in Melbourne. There is a third refuelling point behind Hyundai's head office in Sydney.

However, other hydrogen refuelling stations are due to come on stream in Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne in the next two to three years; in Europe hydrogen is available alongside petrol and diesel bowsers at selected service stations.
When asked if it would be at least five to 10 years before hydrogen-powered cars would be available for the public to buy locally, a senior Toyota Australia executive told CarAdvice “I think it’s probably less than that”.

“I think it's a couple of years,” said Sean Hanley, Toyota Australia’s head of sales and marketing. “I'm not thinking it’s five years … I'm thinking it might be two to three years away.”

Toyota says it will handle the rollout of the Mirai hydrogen car at first, but eventually it will be sold alongside the Corolla, Camry, RAV4, and HiLux in suburban showrooms.


“We've said to our dealer network initially we'll manage the Mirai launch, only because the infrastructure is limited,” said Mr Hanley.

“But it’s our full intention – and I'm on record as talking to our own dealer network – (that) as soon as we get some more widespread refuelling options, our intention is the Mirai will be sold as a mainstream vehicle by all our Toyota dealers.”

 

[basilio]

It seems that the economic viability of all new US cars being electric by 2035 is on the table. Essentially price parity with petrol will come with a few years and the next critical issues are
1) Sufficient recharging points to enable access by all people
2) Expanded national renewable energy systems with storage capacity
3) Industrial capacity to produce new electric cars. Copper and lithium supplies seem to the bottle necks.

Advances mean all new US vehicles can be electric by 2035, study finds

Rapid electrification could save drivers $2.7tn by 2050 as cost of batteries to fall and recharge points to increase

www.theguardian.com

 

[over9k]

Just in case anyone's wondering how the alternatives to electric are doing.

It went -16% on the day today. So bad that the website has crashed/is unreachable.


Here's plug power and blink charging, who make the aforementioned charging stations we've been discussing as not being a long term business too:




How could people not realise that these were not long term businesses?

Probably all the newbies/reddit traders from the last year or so on the hype train and now getting stung.

 

[basilio]

So how will we find enough rare earth minerals to electrify the worlds cars ?

There are an estimated 1.4bn cars on the world’s roads today. Around 78m new cars are sold every year. To head off the worst effects of climate change, every single one will need to go electric eventually.

Whether it rolls off a production line in Fremont, California, or comes together in a vast megafactory in Qinghai, China, a colossal amount of human effort must go into building the components and obtaining their base minerals. In each car, for instance, there is roughly a kilogram of magnet providing the motion needed to fire engines and electrify windows. Roughly 30% of this material is made up of rare earth material known as neodymium and praseodymium (NdPr).

This material is three times stronger and a tenth the size of conventional magnets – and essential to the process. In 2016, Japanese car manufacturer Honda tried and failed to build a hybrid vehicle without rare earths. Over the next decade the use of NdPr in electric vehicle magnets alone is projected to soak up 40% of total demand, according to some projections.

The race for rare earth minerals: can Australia fuel the electric vehicle revolution?

China dominates supply of the elusive metals, which are vital to modern technology, but finding new sources is becoming a global priority

www.theguardian.com

 

[over9k]

 

[over9k]

Also, not sure how relevant this is to electric cars but it's worth a watch IMO:

 

[sptrawler]

@Value Collector, be a bit careful when using your Tesla model 3, in auto pilot mode.

Tesla with ‘no one’ driving crashes, killing two

A Tesla electric car that “no one” appeared to be driving has crashed in Texas, erupting into flames and killing the two passengers, according to local authorities.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Value Collector]

@Value Collector, be a bit careful when using your Tesla model 3, in auto pilot mode.

Tesla with ‘no one’ driving crashes, killing two

A Tesla electric car that “no one” appeared to be driving has crashed in Texas, erupting into flames and killing the two passengers, according to local authorities.

www.smh.com.au

Why was there no one in the drivers seat???

sounds like they were trying to do something crazy and it back fired.

When your car is in autopilot, you are meant to be in the drivers seat, paying attention. We aren’t at the full Auto stage yet where you can be in the back sleeping.

I have seen YouTube videos of people doing silly thing, it makes me cringe.

 

[sptrawler]

The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV hybrid, has had the vehicle 2 grid enabled, in the 2021 model, which makes it an interesting option for those with solar and still require the distance ability of an ICE engined car.
https://evcentral.com.au/v2g-charging-tech-for-mitsubishi-outlander-phevs-back-to-my17/
From the article:
Vehicle-to-grid charging technology will soon be available for the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which now includes a sporty new GSR variant as part of an updated model.

Vehicle-to-grid – or V2G – has been available on the Outlander since late 2016 (MY17 models) but is only being enabled now following the imminent arrival of new hardware required to liase with Australian electricity grids.

While the just-updated Outlander PHEV will be able to power a house or feed electricity back into the grid, older Outlander PHEVs dating back almost four years will also be able to benefit from the bi-directional charging tech that is being touted as an EV game changer.

Key to the availability of V2G technology is a vehicle-to-grid charger, something that has delayed Nissan from offering it on the Leaf EV, which is otherwise technically capable. Infrastructure provider Jet Charge is about to begin selling the first V2G charger, the Wallbox Quasar, expected to cost about $8000.

Mitsubishi says the charger was put through grid certification in recent weeks and is expected to be available early in 2021. By late 2021 Mitsubishi expects more bi-directional charging options, one of which could include Australian company Rectifier Technologies.

That then unlocks to potential to use the Outlander PHEV as an electricity storage device.

The Outlander PHEV was initially offered with a 12.0kWh battery but in December 2019 that increased to 13.8kWh.

That’s similar to the 13.5kWh available from a single Tesla Powerwall, which sells from $11,700 (excluding installation, which can add a few thousand dollars). Most houses would require at least two Powerwalls, especially if they want to use them as the sole energy source; most households use between 15 and 30kWh of electricity per day, although that varies depending on the home, the location, the season and whether the home has energy-intensive systems such as a pool or heating.

 

[basilio]

Outstanding article on why well priced electric cars aren't currently avaible in Australia. Government policy and dollars.

Volkswagen says it will ship EVs to Australia if the government introduces EU-style mandatory carbon targets backed up with fines.
This would solve the supply shortage by giving car makers a greater financial incentive to ship EVs to Australia, Mr Bartsch said.
"Where you have no legislative imperative, that is always going to be the last place you send the vehicles."

Australians want electric vehicles, but car makers won't ship them here. Here's why

Surveys show Australians want to buy electric vehicles, but they continue to languish at less than 1 per cent of new car sales. What's going on?

www.abc.net.au

• Australia's rate of EV car sales is rapidly falling behind that of other developed countries
• Consumer interest is high, but there are problems with the supply of affordable models
• Manufacturers say they're not shipping EVs to Australia due to government policy

 

[sptrawler]

Outstanding article on why well priced electric cars aren't currently avaible in Australia. Government policy and dollars.

Which usually equals, another sector putting its hands out for tax payer subsidies.

 

[rederob]

Which usually equals, another sector putting its hands out for tax payer subsidies.

Done properly it works the opposite way.
Tax ICE vehicles based on CO2 emissions.
But Oz is a backwater on CO2 legislation.

 

[sptrawler]

Done properly it works the opposite way.
Tax ICE vehicles based on CO2 emissions.
But Oz is a backwater on CO2 legislation.

I think that is better than subsidising E.V's, at the end of the day, it is up to the manufacturers to change over.
They will reap the rewards of lower labor costs in the end and have been making plenty out of ICE vehicles for years, so to have taxpayers subsidising them just doesn't sit well with me.
Putting a Government tax on ICE vehicles makes much more sense.

 

[patrickshaw]

Hi All,
Interested to know what peoples opinions of electric cars are. I personally would prefer an electric car, but not for environmental reasons. I think the cheaper refueling and possible higher power-to-weight ratios would be a big plus. I also think that it might be a car I would have some chance of being able to fix myself, since it is more electrically based than the conventional highly mechanical petrol car.
I can see some disadvantages though, namely current battery technology (the cars power weakens with use, like a cordless drill).

Thoughts on the electric car?

Agreed

 

[rederob]

Agreed

Missed 176 pages!

 

[Smurf1976]

• Consumer interest is high, but there are problems with the supply of affordable models
• Manufacturers say they're not shipping EVs to Australia due to government policy

I question how high consumer interest really is if they're not willing to buy a car without government forcing them?

Same with anything from bricks to a circus show. If people actually want it then they buy it, they don't wait for government to force them. Apart from taxes, about the only thing I can think of that I've ever bought and which government requires that I must have is a smoke detector. Even there though, I'd have bought one anyway.

No current car model has a law forcing it to be sold or purchased after all and if manufacturers thought EV's would sell in large number then they'd be crazy to not offer them. Same as any business - they offer for sale what they think customers will buy, nobody waits for government to tell them what to do.

I think what they really mean is they can make more profit by selling them somewhere that government mandates it and that they'll chase that most profitable market. Make Australia more profitable and they'll do the same here.

Note that I'm not saying government shouldn't intervene, just arguing that consumers don't really seem too keen or at least the manufacturers don't perceive that consumers are keen.

What governments could do something about though is to stop the "arms race" with vehicle size. From a safety perspective alone it's getting ridiculous and creates a situation where anyone able to afford the cost and with concerns about safety will feel a need to join in, pushing up emissions as a result and further perpetuating the arms race. What was a "big car" one generation ago is arguably a bit too small to be safe these days. Even if it does have all the latest safety features, the simple fact that someone else's bumper is at the same height as your windows is a very real issue.

 

[rederob]

I question how high consumer interest really is if they're not willing to buy a car without government forcing them?

Same with anything from bricks to a circus show. If people actually want it then they buy it, they don't wait for government to force them. Apart from taxes, about the only thing I can think of that I've ever bought and which government requires that I must have is a smoke detector. Even there though, I'd have bought one anyway.

No current car model has a law forcing it to be sold or purchased after all and if manufacturers thought EV's would sell in large number then they'd be crazy to not offer them. Same as any business - they offer for sale what they think customers will buy, nobody waits for government to tell them what to do.

I think what they really mean is they can make more profit by selling them somewhere that government mandates it and that they'll chase that most profitable market. Make Australia more profitable and they'll do the same here.

Note that I'm not saying government shouldn't intervene, just arguing that consumers don't really seem too keen or at least the manufacturers don't perceive that consumers are keen.

What governments could do something about though is to stop the "arms race" with vehicle size. From a safety perspective alone it's getting ridiculous and creates a situation where anyone able to afford the cost and with concerns about safety will feel a need to join in, pushing up emissions as a result and further perpetuating the arms race. What was a "big car" one generation ago is arguably a bit too small to be safe these days. Even if it does have all the latest safety features, the simple fact that someone else's bumper is at the same height as your windows is a very real issue.

Government policy should be for the public good.
That means making smart decisions.
The issue does not relate to forcing anyone to do something.
It's about incentivising good ideas, and penalising bad ones.
CO2 is not good.
Vehicle emissions are unhealthy.
Vehicle noise should be curtailed.

Aside from tht, job creation is strongest in green industries.
Again, where are we on that?

 

[Value Collector]

I question how high consumer interest really is if they're not willing to buy a car without government forcing them?

Same with anything from bricks to a circus show. If people actually want it then they buy it, they don't wait for government to force them. Apart from taxes, about the only thing I can think of that I've ever bought and which government requires that I must have is a smoke detector. Even there though, I'd have bought one anyway.

No current car model has a law forcing it to be sold or purchased after all and if manufacturers thought EV's would sell in large number then they'd be crazy to not offer them. Same as any business - they offer for sale what they think customers will buy, nobody waits for government to tell them what to do.

I think what they really mean is they can make more profit by selling them somewhere that government mandates it and that they'll chase that most profitable market. Make Australia more profitable and they'll do the same here.

Note that I'm not saying government shouldn't intervene, just arguing that consumers don't really seem too keen or at least the manufacturers don't perceive that consumers are keen.

What governments could do something about though is to stop the "arms race" with vehicle size. From a safety perspective alone it's getting ridiculous and creates a situation where anyone able to afford the cost and with concerns about safety will feel a need to join in, pushing up emissions as a result and further perpetuating the arms race. What was a "big car" one generation ago is arguably a bit too small to be safe these days. Even if it does have all the latest safety features, the simple fact that someone else's bumper is at the same height as your windows is a very real issue.

Consumers don’t often know what they want.

As Henry Ford said, if he had asked consumers what they want they would have said a faster horse.

To be honest I think public demand would be much higher if people understood more about EV’s, The I regularly get asked questions about my car when I am in parking lots etc, and you can tell by the questions that get asked people are pretty clueless (not their fault).

The most regular question I get asked is “where do you charge it” and the people are shocked to find out I just plug into a regular power point, the next question is “how long does it take” which again is a misunderstood topic, people seem turned off if I say my something like 10 hours even though their car sits in their garage all night anyway, and they don’t understand there are faster options, but it’s hard to explain in a 5 second sound bite