Electric cars?

[Chronos-Plutus]

As more renewables are added to the grid the present concept of "off peak" will change. Time of use billing can further "balance" the changes in load.
The principal issue going forward will be how "storage" is integrated into the energy mix, as adding extra capacity via renewables - because it is already the cheapest form of generation - can be done in a canter, despite your unsound views on that matter.
In the USA and some other countries, new and replacement capacity via renewables must be bid with a storage component. We don't have such a policy.
If this was a discussion taking place in Europe, I would have greater concerns than here, as Australia, if it's smart, can do with renewables what the Saudis did for decades with oil.

I wouldn't call it just a 'problem' in the EU, I would call it an impending disaster.

We won't see a 100% EV uptake in Australia, until well past the mid century, likely into the late century, as per AEMO forecasts. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be monitoring the EV uptake to ensure it remains within parameters that will not compromise our grid.

I initially posted on the enormous scale of electrical capacity required for a 100% EV uptake, to bring some reality to the discussion, which unfortunately shattered the dreams of emotional posters like Basilio.

 

[rederob]

We won't see a 100% EV uptake in Australia, until well past the mid century, likely into the late century, as per AEMO forecasts. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be monitoring the EV uptake to ensure it remains within parameters that will not compromise our grid.
I initially posted on the enormous scale of electrical capacity required for a 100% EV uptake, to bring some reality to the discussion, which unfortunately shattered the dreams of emotional posters like Basilio.

First, read the links provided that show EV penetration is under regularly review, a point you choose to ignore.
Second, the issues confronting our grid have been explained ad nauseum. EVs are a minor issue, and that's only because we have yet to get to a viable stage for widespread EV ownership due to a sub-par charging network. That's a work in progress rather than a concern, especially as we don't have the EVs available on the showroom floor.
Third, additional capacity is not a problem - this has been explained as well.
Finally, the only problem that posters have is getting you to appreciate that accommodating EVs won't be a problem well into the future.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

First, read the links provided that show EV penetration is under regularly review, a point you choose to ignore.
Second, the issues confronting our grid have been explained ad nauseum. EVs are a minor issue, and that's only because we have yet to get to a viable stage for widespread EV ownership due to a sub-par charging network. That's a work in progress rather than a concern, especially as we don't have the EVs available on the showroom floor.
Third, additional capacity is not a problem - this has been explained as well.
Finally, the only problem that posters have is getting you to appreciate that accommodating EVs won't be a problem well into the future.

I would like to see a working paper, that focuses on EV scenario uptake into the future within Australia, from the Chief Scientist's Office.

EVs are not a minor issue, as explained in the KPMG and IEA reports.

Additional capacity is a problem if not managed, as the EU will find out.

EVs will be problem and a potential disaster for our grid if not managed.

Agree to disagree. I am not retired, so I am a bit too busy to keep this circular argument going ad infinitum.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

I am putting this thread on ignore and moving to the other electric thread. I am not interested the hobby aspect of electric vehicles or the emotional arguments.

 

[Value Collector]

All boils back to energy density, as the guy says, there is an application for both batteries and hydrogen.
Batteries are great for metropolitan light load work, Hydrogen great for heavy load long haul work. Just my opinion

I think battery Electric trucks will be great for long haul to, the cost of charging will be significantly less than hydrogen, and with the legally mandated rest stop times, charging won’t add any time.

Also, regen braking significantly reduces energy usage, hydrogen fuel cycles can’t regen.

take a look at this chart from my Tesla where regen means mountains don’t add any extra energy usage, and and saves brake pads (remember hydrogen trucks won’t have exhaust brakes or regen braking)

 

[sptrawler]

I think battery Electric trucks will be great for long haul to, the cost of charging will be significantly less than hydrogen, and with the legally mandated rest stop times, charging won’t add any time.

Also, regen braking significantly reduces energy usage, hydrogen fuel cycles can’t regen.

take a look at this chart from my Tesla where regen means mountains don’t add any extra energy usage, and and saves brake pads (remember hydrogen trucks won’t have exhaust brakes or regen braking)

Time will tell, but there isn't a lot of regenerative braking on the nullarbor, for a B triple carrying 180 ton of cargo and a hell of a lot of wind resistance, also the same applies for trains not many down hills for regeneration.
That is where the energy density really comes into play.

 

[basilio]

I'm not so sure a Hydrogen Fuel Cell car can't regen.
These cars are basically electric cars with the electricity provided by a fuel cell that uses stored hydrogen.But it is still driven through an electric motor..

If a large truck was powered by a hydrogen fuel cell why wouldn't it also have a reasonable size battery pack that could store and release energy produced through regen ?

 

[basilio]

For those looking for a really cool retro EV experience.
VW Microbus EV Conversion Merges Powertrain Tech With Old-School Cool


The 60s are alive and well.


By Roberto Baldwin
Mar 23, 2020

Volkswagen

• Volkswagen and eClassics have partnered to bring the e-BULLI EV Microbus conversion to life.
• The conversion uses VW electric components.
• The starting cost of $70,100 requires you already have a Microbus.

The electric version of the classic VW Microbus has been on the horizon, but not one quite like this. Last summer at its Innovation and Engineering Center, Volkswagen unveiled a Type 2 Microbus that was converted to an electric vehicle. They called it the Type 20, and it was amazing. Now the Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles (VWCV) team has partnered with eClassics to bring an electrified 1966 T1 version of that bus to life.

Built with VW electric components, the e-BULLI conversion picks up where the Type 20 concept left off. (Quick history lesson: in Germany, Bulli was the nickname of the Microbus.) The VWCV and eClassic have removed the four-cylinder boxer engine and replaced it with a single motor that generates 82 horsepower and 156 lb-ft of torque. Those numbers may seem low, but they're actually double that of the original powertrain. The top speed is a blazing electronically limited 81 mph.


Volkswagen
Inside, the shifter has been moved from the steering column to the center console and now includes a B setting for adjustable braking recuperation. It's also home to a stop/start button for the electric system. In the dash, an analog speedometer keeps the retro feeling alive but is augmented with a digital display that shows information such as range, if the car is plugged into a charger, and if the parking brake is on.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a31898210/vw-microbus-ev-conversion-ebulli/

 

[over9k]

That is your opinion that the assumptions are flawed, and I don't have to agree with your opinion.

What questions are you taking about?

Sure, but you don't understand why I'm saying what I'm saying, which is the problem. You're dismissing something without understanding it, and accepting something else (the report) whilst also not understanding that.

The post about rainfall. If australia's rainfall quadrupled, what infrastructure would the government need to build (drains, rivers, whatever) to deal with it? Answer the question any way you like.

 

[SirRumpole]

Governments could move the issue along by requiring carparks to provider X number of dedicated EV parking spots with chargers per total spaces. At least it would show that government was interested in the EV concept and was prepared to move things along.

 

[over9k]

Yeah but that would require a billion nuclear power stations and wires & stuff rumpole.

Or something.

 

[over9k]

Also, ******* lol. Chronos is arguing with me in another thread about another topic I also have a masters degree in.

This dude's inability to recognise who/what he is talking to is amazing.

 

[Value Collector]

I'm not so sure a Hydrogen Fuel Cell car can't regen.
These cars are basically electric cars with the electricity provided by a fuel cell that uses stored hydrogen.But it is still driven through an electric motor..

If a large truck was powered by a hydrogen fuel cell why wouldn't it also have a reasonable size battery pack that could store and release energy produced through regen ?

By the time you have a hydrogen tank + a fuel cell + a battery to capture regen you may as well just get rid of the hydrogen tank and fuel cell and just get a bigger battery.

 

[sptrawler]

Not cars, but close enough.

One of these has made its way on to my wish list. Bit more tame than a dirt bike (I was never that good of a rider), less maintenance, no noise issues so much better in 'suburban bush' and can be registered which helps as we are a single car house hold

Here's another option fiftyeight, if you want the motorcycle experience.
Could be ideal for @SirRumpole for the country town run around.
Best of all it's Australian, sort of.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/too-cool-for-fuel-review-of-fonzarelli-arthur-3-electric-scooter-78208/

 

[Value Collector]

That is where the energy density really comes into play.

How does energy density give hydrogen an edge over full electric on the nullarbor?

The Tesla semi has a range of over 800km, so if it left its origin with a full battery it can travel the first 1600 km with just one 45 min charging stop from there another 1 hour of charging would complete the journey from Adelaide to Perth?

how many rest stops do trucks normally make on the nullarbor? I bet they are stopping routinely already for much longer than they would take to charge.

Also, having trucking transporting diesel or hydrogen out to fuel stops in not efficient, when you could just have solar panels out in the desert running the charging locations.

imagine a few of these solar panel and battery setups fueling our highways rather Than tanker trucks.

 

[sptrawler]

How does energy density give hydrogen an edge over full electric on the nullarbor?

The Tesla semi has a range of over 800km, so if it left its origin with a full battery it can travel the first 1600 km with just one 45 min charging stop from there another 1 hour of charging would complete the journey from Adelaide to Perth?

how many rest stops do trucks normally make on the nullarbor? I bet they are stopping routinely already for much longer than they would take to charge.

Also, having trucking transporting diesel or hydrogen out to fuel stops in not efficient, when you could just have solar panels out in the desert running the charging locations.

imagine a few of these solar panel and battery setups fueling our highways rather Than tanker trucks.

I'm not saying it isn't feasible, it is just from what I have read the weight and size of the batteries required reduce the payload and space considerably.
Whereas with hydrogen/fuel cell, the actual storage requirement is far less, not that it actually bothers me either way.
I'm sure the trucking businesses will adopt whichever fuel gives them the best financial outcome.
With regard the nullarbor, I was making reference to the regenerative braking you mentioned, you would get a bit going down Eucla pass, but lose it going up Madura pass a couple of hundred k's further on.

 

[fiftyeight]

How does energy density give hydrogen an edge over full electric on the nullarbor?

The Tesla semi has a range of over 800km, so if it left its origin with a full battery it can travel the first 1600 km with just one 45 min charging stop from there another 1 hour of charging would complete the journey from Adelaide to Perth?

how many rest stops do trucks normally make on the nullarbor? I bet they are stopping routinely already for much longer than they would take to charge.

Also, having trucking transporting diesel or hydrogen out to fuel stops in not efficient, when you could just have solar panels out in the desert running the charging locations.

imagine a few of these solar panel and battery setups fueling our highways rather Than tanker trucks.

View attachment 106256

Have you listened to the podcast? Trevor from Nikola mentions a number of times, different situations will require different solutions, and Nikola are targeting situations where hydrogen has advantages. The nullarbor is a pretty specific situation to base a general case off.

The only thing that matters in the trucking world is cost/mile, which energy density obvs is a part of, but there are other factors.

 

[Smurf1976]

how many rest stops do trucks normally make on the nullarbor? I bet they are stopping routinely already for much longer than they would take to charge.

I've only done the trip twice (once in each direction) but there were definitely at least some trucks parked overnight at roadhouses.

 

[fiftyeight]

Here's another option fiftyeight, if you want the motorcycle experience.
Could be ideal for @SirRumpole for the country town run around.
Best of all it's Australian, sort of.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/too-cool-for-fuel-review-of-fonzarelli-arthur-3-electric-scooter-78208/

Have you been speaking to my wife? She was NOT a fan of the Sur-Ron.

I might think I am 21 but my body definitely does not bounce like it used to, as proven while snowboarding in Japan last Jan

 

[sptrawler]

I've only done the trip twice (once in each direction) but there were definitely at least some trucks parked overnight at roadhouses.

I've done it 16 times, including twice on a motorbike, flying is a lot nicer.