Electric cars?

[Chronos-Plutus]

I don’t grasp those basics perfectly.

there is no issue with “stranded assets” if the change is going to take 20 years or more, and Those assets still can produce other things.

It’s the same with capital expenditure, off peak charging etc will create higher utilization rates making existing assets more profitable, and there is plenty of capital out there looking for a home earning 10%, and steady demand from charging a vehicle fleet can supply the steady longterm earnings to under write new investments.

I support roof-top solar where it is fit for purpose. You obviously don't live in Tasmania.

How often do you drive; do you drive 100s of kms a day?

 

[over9k]

Renewables have nothing to do with electric vehicles. Doubly so if you're charging overnight like most people would be.

We need to move past that bit.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

Renewables have nothing to do with electric vehicles. Doubly so if you're charging overnight like most people would be.

We need to move past that bit.

Don't forget to plug in before you go to bed . You might be late to work, or the kids might be waiting an hour or two to get dropped off or picked up from school.

 

[sptrawler]

It's much much more efficient to burn fuel in a power station than it is to burn it in an internal combustion engine I know that. Something like 4x as much iirc.

The efficiency varies greatly between internal combustion engines, also the drive train on a vehicle has a major bearing on the actual efficiency at the wheels. e.g diesel, diesel turbo charged, petrol low compression, petrol high compression, two wheel drive four wheel drive.

In the same argument the efficiency of power stations vary hugely, depending on the type of installation and equipment being used. e.g diesel, steam, steam with reheat, open cycle gas turbine, open cycle high efficiency gas turbine, combined cycle gas turbine, hydro.

A turbo charged diesel engine, as a stand alone prime mover have an efficiency of mid 50%, petrol high 30%.
Where as older style open cycle gas turbines can be low20%, high efficiency gas turbines can be mid 40% and combined cycle mid 50%.
So I guess it all depends what you are comparing, with a car it is the weight it has to move, the wind drag and transmission losses that hurts.
Where a power station wins is it is sitting in one spot and running at optimum speed.

 

[over9k]

Don't forget to plug in before you go to bed . You might be late to work, or the kids might be waiting an hour or two to get dropped off or picked up from school.

Why do you think I asked about the charge:running time ratio? And about 15 amp and 3 phase charging?

I've been looking for an excuse to install 3 phase power for ages. My shed just can't justify it. Installing 15 amp power is far far simpler though.

I wouldn't bat an eyelid at installing 15 amp or even 3 phase power if it was a game changer reference charging an electric car for regular use, and it's only a few g's if you want it too.

 

[over9k]

The efficiency varies greatly between internal combustion engines, also the drive train on a vehicle has a major bearing on the actual efficiency at the wheels. e.g diesel, diesel turbo charged, petrol low compression, petrol high compression, two wheel drive four wheel drive.

In the same argument the efficiency of power stations vary hugely, depending on the type of installation and equipment being used. e.g diesel, steam, steam with reheat, open cycle gas turbine, open cycle high efficiency gas turbine, combined cycle gas turbine, hydro.

A turbo charged diesel engine, as a stand alone prime mover have an efficiency of mid 50%, petrol high 30%.
Where as older style open cycle gas turbines can be low20%, high efficiency gas turbines can be mid 40% and combined cycle mid 50%.
So I guess it all depends what you are comparing, with a car it is the weight it has to move, the wind drag and transmission losses that hurts.

Oh yeah I know all about internal combustion engines, I've been a car guy forever and even ran a transport/logistics business. Just no idea about power stations.

 

[Value Collector]

That's really cool. Looks like standard 10 amp 240v power too? Or are you up to 15 amp?

What's the ratio of time charging:time running? It obviously takes a lot more than 2.4kw (or 3.6kw if you have 15 amp) to move a car.

That’s the 8 amp Portable charger you get free with your Tesla, it can go into any 10 amp socket, it also comes with a 16 amp plug that is interchangeable.

You also get a larger fixed wall charger That can be installed by an electrician that can go up to 32 amp but I haven’t done that because we will be moving soon.

—————

The portable charger I am using is the slowest way to charge, It adds about 120 kms of driving per hour 10 hours of charge.

If you drive more than 800 kms per week though, you would be better off installing the Tesla wall charger that you get with the car, it can charge up to 4 times faster.

On road trips if you are driving between cities, you use the Tesla Super chargers, they can give you an 80% charge (4 hours of driving) in 15-20 mins.

 

[sptrawler]

Oh yeah I know all about internal combustion engines, I've been a car guy forever and even ran a transport/logistics business. Just no idea about power stations.

I'm a bit the opposite, always worked on cars and bikes, love them.
But my day job was running a power station.lol

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

Why do you think I asked about the charge:running time ratio? And about 15 amp and 3 phase charging?

I've been looking for an excuse to install 3 phase power for ages. My shed just can't justify it. Installing 15 amp power is far far simpler though.

I wouldn't bat an eyelid at installing 15 amp or even 3 phase power if it was a game changer reference charging an electric car for regular use, and it's only a few g's if you want it too.

In time I might look at buying a hydrogen vehicle and installing a hydrogen generator in my backyard.

 

[over9k]

That’s the 8 amp Portable charger you get free with your Tesla, it can go into any 10 amp socket, it also comes with a 16 amp plug that is interchangeable.

You also get a larger fixed wall charger That can be installed by an electrician that can go up to 32 amp but I haven’t done that because we will be moving soon.

—————

The portable charger I am using is the slowest way to charge, It adds about 120 kms of driving per hour 10 hours of charge.

If you drive more than 800 kms per week though, you would be better off installing the Tesla wall charger that you get with the car, it can charge up to 4 times faster.

On road trips if you are driving between cities, you use the Tesla Super chargers, they can give you an 80% charge (4 hours of driving) in 15-20 mins.

Could I be a massive pain and get you to take pictures of all the plugs & holes for me as I'd know what I was looking at then?

The tesla wall charger sounds like a battery that charges slow/at wall speed all the time and then just dumps quickly into the car's battery once plugged in?

And yeah I've heard about those super chargers, they're probably the infrastructure chronos is talking about. Hence me saying that if batteries can improve then the infrastructure becomes unnecessary.

I've heard they absolutely murder the batteries' actual life (how many times they can be recharged, how long they hold their full charge for etc etc) though?

Even if tesla don't supply absolutely everything needed for 10 amp, 15 amp, 3 phase etc etc wall charging I am SURE that a decent electrician or even just electrical engineering company like clipsal or whomever would be able to come up with some kind of adapter harness system or whatever. There's no way this is a problem that couldn't be solved.

I'm a bit the opposite, always worked on cars and bikes, love them.
But my day job was running a power station.lol

I see we both have appropriate profile pictures then

 

[Value Collector]

How often do you drive; do you drive 100s of kms a day?

my driving varies, as I said I am retired.

but as I said above, if you drive less than 800I’m per week and charged 10hours each night you would be fine with the portable charger.

If you need to drive more than 800km per week install the wall charger, mine is still in its box, I haven’t needed it yet.

charging during the days I am home and over night a few times when it gets low and using superchargers on road trips has been more than enough for me.

 

[Value Collector]

In time I might look at buying a hydrogen vehicle and installing a hydrogen generator in my backyard.

it’s more efficient to charge a battery than make hydrogen, energy loss in the hydrogen process is huge compared to the 5% you lose charging a battery

 

[over9k]

What's involved with installing the wall charger/how does it work?

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

View attachment 105958 View attachment 105959

my driving varies, as I said I am retired.

but as I said above, if you drive less than 800I’m per week and charged 10hours each night you would be fine with the portable charger.

If you need to drive more than 800km per week install the wall charger, mine is still in its box, I haven’t needed it yet.

charging during the days I am home and over night a few times when it gets low and using superchargers on road trips has been more than enough for me.

This sort of setup won't work in say Tasmania.

it’s more efficient to charge a battery than make hydrogen, energy loss in the hydrogen process is huge compared to the 5% you lose charging a battery

You lose more than 5% charging a battery. Could be up above 25%.

I can store hydrogen in a tank in my back yard, produce it easily with water and electricity, and I can refill my tank in a couple of minutes. Also I can travel further on a tank of hydrogen.

 

[sptrawler]

This sort of set


You lose more than 5% charging a battery. Could be up above 25%.

I can store hydrogen in a tank in my back yard, produce it easily with water and electricity, and I can refill my tank in a couple of minutes. Also I can travel further on a tank of hydrogen.

Hydrogen really only makes sense as fuel in heavy equipment, there are a huge amount of losses in an electrolyser.
Having said that, I also believe unless batteries improve, my guess is eventually they will be phased out.
This will be mainly due to the depletion of resources, the toxic waste and the push toward public transport in major cities.
I think it will only be a matter of time before cars become a luxury, as they were 50 years ago, the roads will probably be ruled by autonomous ride share vehicles and public transport. Just my opinion

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

Hydrogen really only makes sense as fuel in heavy equipment, there are a huge amount of losses in an electrolyser.
Having said that, I also believe unless batteries improve, my guess is eventually they will be phased out.
This will be mainly due to the depletion of resources, the toxic waste and the push toward public transport in major cities.
I think it will only be a matter of time before cars become a luxury, as they were 50 years ago, the roads will probably be ruled by autonomous ride share vehicles and public transport. Just my opinion

70% TO 80% efficiency in electrolysis. Technology will improve it in time.

I have heard reports of 30% loss when charging Tesla batteries.

I would rather have the hydrogen in a tank ready to go, for a refill in minutes, than having to charge my car overnight or relying on the sun to store/recharge my home battery, to then recharge my car battery. Convenience and time are also an important aspect.

 

[over9k]

This sort of setup won't work in say Tasmania.

But it doesn't have to though dude, you can just use normal hydro/coal/nuclear/geothermal/whatever produced electricity? And then just charge your vehicle overnight? I don't know why you're so hung up on renewables?

The only thing electric vehicles can't currently do is day/road trips and that's just a battery tech thing. Like you said, there's no way they'll build those supercharger stations everywhere (and all the $$$$ infrastructure necessary to power them) when they could just pump the same money into battery R&D and render said supercharger stations redundant.

I'd own an EV no problem at all if the batteries didn't die after ten years (or whatever it is) and need replacing for $lots, and the cars themselves were a lot cheaper obviously.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

But it doesn't have to though dude, you can just use normal hydro/coal/nuclear/geothermal/whatever produced electricity? And then just charge your vehicle overnight? I don't know why you're so hung up on renewables?

The only thing electric vehicles can't currently do is day/road trips and that's just a battery tech thing. Like you said, there's no way they'll build those supercharger stations everywhere (and all the $$$$ infrastructure necessary to power them) when they could just pump the same money into battery R&D and render said supercharger stations redundant.

I'd own an EV no problem at all if the batteries didn't die after ten years (or whatever it is) and need replacing for $lots, and the cars themselves were a lot cheaper obviously.

It is a way of life. You can choose to run an electric vehicle. I will choose hydrogen.

 

[Value Collector]

Could I be a massive pain and get you to take pictures of all the plugs & holes for me as I'd know what I was looking at then?

The tesla wall charger sounds like a battery that charges slow/at wall speed all the time and then just dumps quickly into the car's battery once plugged in?

And yeah I've heard about those super chargers, they're probably the infrastructure chronos is talking about. Hence me saying that if batteries can improve then the infrastructure becomes unnecessary.

I've heard they absolutely murder the batteries' actual life (how many times they can be recharged, how long they hold their full charge for etc etc) though?

Even if tesla don't supply absolutely everything needed for 10 amp, 15 amp, 3 phase etc etc wall charging I am SURE that a decent electrician or even just electrical engineering company like clipsal or whomever would be able to come up with some kind of adapter harness system or whatever. There's no way this is a problem that couldn't be solved.


I see we both have appropriate profile pictures then

here is some photos, I tried to find the 16 amp plug that interchanges with the plug I am using now but I don’t know where I put it, basically it just has a fatter earth plug.

No, the wall charger isn’t a battery, it is just a charger you mount to the wall that can accept higher voltages, you can run a dedicated line to it or you can run 3 phase to it to get 32 amps.

super chargers are fine for the battery, it’s only people that are running their Tesla’s like taxis and supercharging every day That has issues, it even then it’s only slightly reduces the battery capacity, and Tesla have programmed the superchargers to slow the charge a bit on the batteries that have been supercharged a lot.

but they won’t need as many superchargers as we have petrol stations, because 99% of people will charge at home, it’s only road trips you need super chargers.

you can see on the bottom right of the photo my last supercharger session was back in March on a trip to from Brisbane to Sydney, $7.98 pretty cheap haha

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

View attachment 105960 View attachment 105961 View attachment 105962

here is some photos, I tried to find the 16 amp plug that interchanges with the plug I am using now but I don’t know where I put it, basically it just has a fatter earth plug.

No, the wall charger isn’t a battery, it is just a charger you mount to the wall that can accept higher voltages, you can run a dedicated line to it or you can run 3 phase to it to get 32 amps.

super chargers are fine for the battery, it’s only people that are running their Tesla’s like taxis and supercharging every day That has issues, it even then it’s only slightly reduces the battery capacity, and Tesla have programmed the superchargers to slow the charge a bit on the batteries that have been supercharged a lot.

but they won’t need as many superchargers as we have petrol stations, because 99% of people will charge at home, it’s only road trips you need super chargers.

you can see on the bottom right of the photo my last supercharger session was back in March on a trip to from Brisbane to Sydney, $7.98 pretty cheap haha

What about your rooftop solar? Don't you have a home battery?