Do you have to day trade to trade full time?

[Nick Radge]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Wayne makes some very good points. I mean, what exactly is trading for a living? Is it sitting in front of a screen for 8 hours watching numbers tick over? There are now 11 guys here in Noosa from the SFE floor now, several of which are arguably Australia's largest traders. Some of these guys pay more a month in comm's than most people would like to make in profits in a year. However, they sit in front of the computer for 12-hours punching in orders. I don't quite get the 'lifestyle' choice there? When I play golf with them they spend 1/2 the time on the phone and not playing.

I appreciate the original question is on day trading for a living, but just wondering where the living is? As someone else said, you will get over watching a screen all day. Its like working on the SFE floor; 7 hours of boredom interrupted by 30 mins of action.

Take a 20% return - not hard in my opinion over the longer term - and compound that for 20-years. A 30-year old can retire at 50 without issue. I think this is where most lack insight, taking the longer term view. Yes, trend following is boring. Sometimes its a grind. You spend more time below equity highs than above but for stress and lifestyle its hard to beat. Just remember that many of the interviewee's in Market Wizards were trend followers. $1000 invested with John Henry in 1985 is now worth $136,656. A $1000 invested with Buffett is worth $22,000.

 

[Mr J]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

It's not prudent to view day trading results the same way as investment return, because it's a job, not investing.

I believe it's both. Investment of resources into the occupation of trading. Regardless, it's something I'm familiar with as I've been this type of thing for years. Card counting, poker, sportsbetting, trading - it's all the same to me. All about making +ev wagers day in, day out.

So is it possible to turn $10k into $50k in a year? Sure! It's possible. Many do it. But take out your tax and living expenses and you're back to 10k.

Expenses were intentionally left out, as it was to prove a point for trading performance. I agreed earlier with TH that starting with 10-20k would be struggle, but it is possible. Requirements for starting capital will vary significantly on the trader's personal situation (expenses, partner, how long until trading profitably etc). If someone has a partner that can support them or living expenses saved in advance, it's possible to hold onto most of that profit. It may be a struggle for a couple of years, but it's still doable. If one has turned 10k into 50k, there's probably also a good possibility of finding an investor.

I'm not suggesting anyone start with 10k, but it's not impossible. 50k I would consider as a very comfortable start, at least for me.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Wayne makes some very good points. I mean, what exactly is trading for a living? Is it sitting in front of a screen for 8 hours watching numbers tick over? There are now 11 guys here in Noosa from the SFE floor now, several of which are arguably Australia's largest traders. Some of these guys pay more a month in comm's than most people would like to make in profits in a year. However, they sit in front of the computer for 12-hours punching in orders. I don't quite get the 'lifestyle' choice there? When I play golf with them they spend 1/2 the time on the phone and not playing.

I appreciate the original question is on day trading for a living, but just wondering where the living is? As someone else said, you will get over watching a screen all day. Its like working on the SFE floor; 7 hours of boredom interrupted by 30 mins of action.

Take a 20% return - not hard in my opinion over the longer term - and compound that for 20-years. A 30-year old can retire at 50 without issue. I think this is where most lack insight, taking the longer term view. Yes, trend following is boring. Sometimes its a grind. You spend more time below equity highs than above but for stress and lifestyle its hard to beat. Just remember that many of the interviewee's in Market Wizards were trend followers. $1000 invested with John Henry in 1985 is now worth $136,656. A $1000 invested with Buffett is worth $22,000.

But Nick,

I just received an email saying "How to Retire in One Year with Only $10,000".

 

[wayneL]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

But Nick,

I just received an email saying "How to Retire in One Year with Only $10,000".

I couldn't resist it. Yep I sent away for the "special report" to see what they were spruiking.

CREDIT SPREADS! LOL

The standard BS as detailed below, 90% probabiltiy with 20% profit every month.

Un-####ing-believable.

 

[Pager]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

What i do know is you don't have to sit in front of a screen all day unless you want too : maybe you can make abit or substantially more but each to there own on that one.

I have and up until i did always wanted too but believe me it does your head in

I only really trade futures and close trades end of day or hold for no longer than 2 days maximum, think the most important aspects to trading like this is risking a very low % of your account on any trade and being very disciplined in placing orders no matter what is happening in the world, this week Ive made most of my money on the short side even though the markets have been in a very bullish mood.


The past 3 years Ive made more from trading than Ive earned from working, i still work however but feel lucky i can pick and choose when and how much work i do, TBH i actually like going to work but it is nice be able to say when and how much work i do, usually 20 to 30 hours a week.

Think its utter BS that you need to be in constant contact with the markets to make money, you don't, i place an entry, an exit and a stop with a broker and I'm happy to pay a bit more than the Internet brokers for piece of mind all my instructions are carried out, so as far as i can see everything is covered, Ive also only just checked what happened today on my account, if you start watching the market Ive found it becomes like a magnet and you can sit there watching all day, but it doesnt help if your trades are going the wrong way .

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

I don't quite get the 'lifestyle' choice there? When I play golf with them they spend 1/2 the time on the phone and not playing.

Yep Nick I sit in front of the screen @ 11:30 (HSI, not trading SPI except Close) and don't move until 4:30- 6:00. I put a vid recorded on myself the other day just to see what the hell I did during this time and was very surprised to see how focused and little I moved. Other than running to get a coffee and kick the dog.

BUT,

I wake up each day and make that choice. When I wake up and decided not to do it I don't. Last fin year I didn't trade for 3 1/2 months thats something a trend trader cannot do. I also sleep very well at night.

each method has there + & -.

 

[MRC & Co]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Nick thats shocking news!!

Haven't read the rest of the thread, but that is shocking news!

Out of interest, he didn't trade the SPI did he by any chance?

 

[Nick Radge]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

I just received an email saying "How to Retire in One Year with Only $10,000"

Can you send it to me?

Out of interest, he didn't trade the SPI did he by any chance?

Yes, and FX.

 

[Frank D]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Take a 20% return - not hard in my opinion over the longer term - and compound that for 20-years. A 30-year old can retire at 50 without issue. I think this is where most lack insight, taking the longer term view.

I made that exact point regarding 'compounding' in another thread
'creating wealth, and an inexperience trader dismissed it because it
was too ‘long term’

There are 10-15% moves in each Quarter trading on the ‘buy’ side, even
in down trends

So the opportunity to make more than 20% per annum is there, and
keep shifting a portion of any profits into long term holdings and
accumulate.

In saying that, I make most of my dosh from day-trading, and I know
when to switch on and off during the trading day, but I do work more than
8 hours a day because I choose to trade other markets. I don't have to
but I do.

The best thing about 'day trading' are the weekends, when I don't have to trade and look at a screen.

 

[nulla nulla]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

im just a lil fish in a big pond nulla

Which makes me a minnow and some others white bait. The term "Day Trader", to me, does not imply opening and closing trades in one day, but trading for the day, day after day. Some trades run with the trend for weeks, others are closed out within minutes after taking a few dollars (on top of brokerages). A profit is a profit. And they all add up at the end of the year.

 

[tech/a]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Couple of things from this.

These top 3 traders with Comms as large as an excellent profit.
They then trade short term and very often.
Dont have a life spend it on the phone---pretty intense--why does it need to be that intense.

So I keep wondering if they are making squillions --- how many squillions do they need.
With people dropping like flies (Friends of my own in their 50s).
2-3 Million why do you need $50 million?
Are they good traders or great gamblers?
Are they really "That Smart"? or "That Stupid"---cost one his life!--I'm sure many many more.
Do they really understand RISK mitigation?--or care?

The best thing about 'day trading' are the weekends, when I don't have to trade and look at a screen.

What you mean if I'm longer term I have too?

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Guys I really don't get the criticism of trading fulltime because you have to "stare at a screen all day"



As apposed to what??

Working the average job where you stare at a screen from 9 to 5. And have your income, hours, holidays, sick leave, over time, 'career' development, earning capacity, recognition, environment, colleagues, profit and life all controlled by someone else, mostly a tosser!


:bloated:

 

[Sean K]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Guys I really don't get the criticism of trading fulltime because you have to "stare at a screen all day"

I think it's the stare at the screen all day by yourself which is the connotation. And, what's troubled me for the past couple of years. ASF is my 'work environment'.

 

[mazzatelli1000]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Working the average job where you stare at a screen from 9 to 5. And have your income, hours, holidays, sick leave, over time, 'career' development, earning capacity, recognition, environment, colleagues, profit and life all controlled by someone else, mostly a tosser!
:bloated:

I second this.
Having your fate entirely in the hands of a tosser maddens me. Being a wage slave is not liberating at all, despite the "security" people seem to derive from it.

 

[Timmy]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Guys I really don't get the criticism of trading fulltime because you have to "stare at a screen all day"



As apposed to what??

Working the average job where you stare at a screen from 9 to 5. And have your income, hours, holidays, sick leave, over time, 'career' development, earning capacity, recognition, environment, colleagues, profit and life all controlled by someone else, mostly a tosser!


:bloated:

I second this.
Having your fate entirely in the hands of a tosser maddens me. Being a wage slave is not liberating at all, despite the "security" people seem to derive from it.

Bandwagon jumper here. I third it.

 

[tech/a]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Dont work for a tosser then.

 

[awg]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

I believe it's both. Investment of resources into the occupation of trading. Regardless, it's something I'm familiar with as I've been this type of thing for years. Card counting, poker, sportsbetting, trading - it's all the same to me. All about making +ev wagers day in, day out.



Expenses were intentionally left out, as it was to prove a point for trading performance. I agreed earlier with TH that starting with 10-20k would be struggle, but it is possible. Requirements for starting capital will vary significantly on the trader's personal situation (expenses, partner, how long until trading profitably etc). If someone has a partner that can support them or living expenses saved in advance, it's possible to hold onto most of that profit. It may be a struggle for a couple of years, but it's still doable. If one has turned 10k into 50k, there's probably also a good possibility of finding an investor.

I'm not suggesting anyone start with 10k, but it's not impossible. 50k I would consider as a very comfortable start, at least for me.

If you have absolute confidence you can do what u say, then undoubtedly, you should convince your parents (or someone else) to take a home equity loan of $50k at 5.5%, then use that as trading capital, returning +20%, everyone will be smiling

 

[tech/a]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

90% of Businesses fail in the First 3 yrs.
90% of traders just plain fail.
One of the main reasons for business failure is Undercapitalisation.

Found this on the net.

Those in Black I see displayed often by wannabe full time traders.
Those in Blue are in my opinion THE killers for most wannabes.

1.Lack of direction. Business owners often fail to establish clear goals and create plans to achieve those goals, especially before starting out, when they fail to develop a complete business plan before launching their company.

2.Impatience. This occurs when business owners try to accomplish too much too soon, or expect to get results far faster than is truly possible. A good rule to remember is that everything costs twice as much and takes three times as long as expected.

3.Greed. When entrepreneurs try to charge too much to make a lot of money in a short period of time, failure isn't far behind.

4.Taking action without thinking it through first. An entrepreneur acts impetuously and makes costly mistakes that eventually cause the business to fail.

5.Poor cost control. An entrepreneur spends too much, especially in the early stages, and spends all their startup capital money before achieving profitability.

6.Poor product quality. This makes it difficult to sell and difficult to get repeat business.

Insufficient working capital. An entrepreneur expects--and requires--immediate, positive cash flow that doesn't occur, leading to the failure of the business.

7.Bad or nonexistent budgeting. An entrepreneur fails to develop written budgets for operations that include all possible expenses.

8.Inadequate financial records. An entrepreneur fails to set up a bookkeeping or accounting system from the beginning.

9.Loss of momentum in the sales department. This leads to a decline in cash flow and the eventual collapse of the enterprise.

10.Failure to anticipate market trends. An entrepreneur doesn't recognize changes in demand, customer preferences or the economic situation.

11.Lack of managerial ability or experience. An entrepreneur doesn't know or understand the important skills it takes to run a business.

12.Indecisiveness. An entrepreneur is unable to make key decisions in the face of difficulties, or decisions are delayed or improperly made because of concern for the opinions or feelings of other people.

13.Bad human relations. Personal problems and conflict with staff, suppliers, creditors and customers can easily lead to business failure.

14.Diffusion of effort. An entrepreneur tries to do too many things, thus failing to set priorities and focus on high-value tasks.

 

[prawn_86]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

90% of Businesses fail in the First 3 yrs.

A bit off topic, but the actual figures here, and in most other Western countries is around 65% fail within the first 3 years. The 90% thrown around is not backed by any research

 

[Pager]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Guys I really don't get the criticism of trading fulltime because you have to "stare at a screen all day"



As apposed to what??

Working the average job where you stare at a screen from 9 to 5. And have your income, hours, holidays, sick leave, over time, 'career' development, earning capacity, recognition, environment, colleagues, profit and life all controlled by someone else, mostly a tosser!


:bloated:

Not sure why just because anyone is in a 9 to 5 job they have someone else controlling there lives, you could say the same thing for you only your controlled by the HKFE

Everyone trades in a different way but to be successful you don't need to be on the PC all day, some do some don't, so in answer to the opening post, is you don't need to day trade to be successful which i guess means you can derive a livable income from just trading which i guess makes you a full time trader.

I prefer working on short term contract basis as well as trading but i can afford to be pick and choose thanks to trading which work i accept and on my conditions and i don't have to stare at a screen all day if i don't want too, but we are all made in a different mould, as in all aspects what rocks your boat wont wont rock someone else's, most of my friends think trading is a very boring subject so it rarely comes up, mind you i find the ins and outs of the plumbing or haulage business as interesting as watching paint dry