Do you have to day trade to trade full time?

[tech/a]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

barely enough to be a danger to yourself

Hahaha.

Still its getting more and more each day.

 

[Mr J]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Most people will be annoyed and call you out when you are misrepresenting yourself- you speak as if you have quite a bit of experience when in fact you have barely enough to be a danger to yourself

That's their problem for making assumptions. I don't misrepresent myself at all. I have regularly stated that I'm relatively new to trading. If people choose to dismiss everything I say, then that is their choice. It's typical human behaviour to judge the person rather than the opinion, but I can't help that.

You'll have to excuse mere mortals like myself for having a few doubts when someone shows up with what only amounts to a drop in the ocean of experience and says that trading is easy and that certain things can be done when you haven't actually done them yet

One can't argue with a subjective opinion. I never said trading was easy as a fact, I said that I find it easy. You can't argue that it isn't easy for me. If you have doubts, again that is not my problem.

Let's come back to this:

but up until this thread I thought you had at least a little bit more experience than you actually do

If I sound like I have more experience than I do, then perhaps I know more than what should be expected of someone with my limited experience. That may be true, and it might not as I don't know how others here see me. However, if what I say generally makes sense, then judge me by my opinions and not my inexperience.

Personally, I've been trading since early 2001

Are you a day trader? Just wondering, as when internet poker came about there was a similar situation. The older, "live poker" crowd suddenly found themselves competing with a lot of apparent young rookies. These young kids had been playing for just a year or few - if that. However, the old crowd discovered these kids were pretty damn good. Why? These kids were multitabling online poker and gaining tremendous experience in a short amount of time. Possibly a few months online saw similar action to what a live poker player would see in a lifetime.

I bring this up because if you're not a day trader, and for whoever is not, then it's reasonable to expect that I will become experienced far more quickly. In a few months, I will probably see more than what slower traders might see in years. Sure, they will have experienced situations that I will not have experienced, but overall my rate of experience will grow at a much faster rate.

Not only am I a daytrader, but I also trade fast charts. I will make more trades than a 5 min chart trader for example. It's quite possible that a year of trading will see me with as much relative experience as an EOD trader would see in a lifetime.

There is also the possibility that maybe I'm just a quick learner. Perhaps something that takes someone a year to learn, I can do in a few months. Perhaps after 6 months I'm as good as someone may be after six.

The point I'm making (since the last quote) is not to suggest that I'm a trading genius, and I'm not stating any of it is true. All I'm saying is that time is not necessarily a good judge of experience, and that I may be more or less experienced than anyone can assume. All anyone is doing here is making an uninformed assumption. A good trader wouldn't do that, and would acknowledge the possibilities, so I'm surprised so many are so quick to make assumptions about me (actually I'm not, it's human nature, but traders should know better).

I hope these comments are considered rather than automatically skipped because I'm "inexperienced". Otherwise, there's no point in posting.

 

[gooner]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

hardly my point
If I don't want to work tomorrow I don't have to or next week. Try ringing up your boss and tell him that your not coming in next week cause you don't feel like working. :

Or tell your boss that you did some really good work last week and have decided to reward yourself by taking a holiday although you have no holiday leave left :

Or telling her that you will not work on that project they need anymore because your colleges are wankers.

Or telling him that you did some really good work last week and you should get 10 x your wage. Working for yourself, which trading is, is the ultimate leverage. Effort and smarts is rewarded exponentially not so as a wage slave. Working for someone else is always 1 to 1 leverage.

Ah but if you have a job, you save lives, teach or do something useful.

Instead of transferring bits of money back and forward all day when trading full time. You do not grow food, or teach or contribute in any meaningful way to the production of the resources that you consume

 

[sleepy]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Ah but if you have a job, you save lives, teach or do something useful.

Thats debatable ....
For every job that does one of the above you could name 3 that dont .....

Instead of transferring bits of money back and forward all day when trading full time. You do not grow food, or teach or contribute in any meaningful way to the production of the resources that you consume.

Although you make a moot point ...and its a question that Brett Steenbarger addressed on Friday ....

What is the value of trading beyond making money?

It's a question that arises for many traders. So many occupations derive their nobility from contributing to the welfare of others in direct ways. Where is the nobility in trading?

In my reply, echoing Ayn Rand, I challenged the notion that nobility is solely or primarily a function of assisting others.

In mastering risk and uncertainty; in learning to pursue opportunity in effortful ways; in making ourselves better as decision makers; in becoming more disciplined actors; we improve ourselves as human beings. That carries over to many areas of life, so that we can become better business partners, spouses, parents, and friends.

Indeed, this might be the most important distinction between trading well and trading poorly: When we trade well, we make ourselves stronger, better; we tap into the best within us. When we trade poorly, we succumb to our lowest common denominators.

The value of trading is the value of any competitive performance activity: in its mastery, we become just a bit closer to our ideals--and that ripples throughout our lives.

http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-is-value-of-trading.html

sleepy

 

[gooner]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Thats debatable ....
For every job that does one of the above you could name 3 that dont .....

Although you make a moot point ...and its a question that Brett Steenbarger addressed on Friday ....

What is the value of trading beyond making money?

It's a question that arises for many traders. So many occupations derive their nobility from contributing to the welfare of others in direct ways. Where is the nobility in trading?

In my reply, echoing Ayn Rand, I challenged the notion that nobility is solely or primarily a function of assisting others.

In mastering risk and uncertainty; in learning to pursue opportunity in effortful ways; in making ourselves better as decision makers; in becoming more disciplined actors; we improve ourselves as human beings. That carries over to many areas of life, so that we can become better business partners, spouses, parents, and friends.

Indeed, this might be the most important distinction between trading well and trading poorly: When we trade well, we make ourselves stronger, better; we tap into the best within us. When we trade poorly, we succumb to our lowest common denominators.

The value of trading is the value of any competitive performance activity: in its mastery, we become just a bit closer to our ideals--and that ripples throughout our lives.

http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-is-value-of-trading.html

sleepy

I think most jobs are useful in some way to running our society - garbos, bank clerks, accountants. They all work to produce, service or support production or service. That said, there are what I call negative occupations that we would be better without - murderers, car thieves, prostitutes. Day trading as an occupation sits above these in my view.

And the mastery piece - it may well make you more disciplined and help in your private life, but you are still contributing nothing to society

 

[wayneL]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

And the mastery piece - it may well make you more disciplined and help in your private life, but you are still contributing nothing to society

Nonsense.

Traders buy stuff, hire people to do stuff.

Look deeper.

 

[beerwm]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

I think most jobs are useful in some way to running our society - garbos, bank clerks, accountants. They all work to produce, service or support production or service. That said, there are what I call negative occupations that we would be better without - murderers, car thieves, prostitutes. Day trading as an occupation sits above these in my view.

And the mastery piece - it may well make you more disciplined and help in your private life, but you are still contributing nothing to society

Its distributing money from the unaware/uneducated to the wise/cunning.
- think natural selection.

- same as a casino really.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

And the mastery piece - it may well make you more disciplined and help in your private life, but you are still contributing nothing to society

How many foreign dollars do you bring from outside the country? I know I bring a few here and there. My business is an export business. That increases the wealth of Australia and I'm guessing you too :. Most jobs support the consumption industry. Whats the value of them?


But besides that I consider my "job" similar to a tennis player or football player or even an artist? What "value" do they have? What lives do they save? Probably none but they entertain the poor masses. Does that has value? it obviously does that's why some of the biggest earners are entertainers of some sort. That's why I get paid so well and upset dudes who scrape out there existence with a 50 hour week. :

And I could go on about the importance of speculators to set price in a capitalist system for it to work. But I guess you're just trying to get a ride out of someone.

 

[Bobby]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

If I sound like I have more experience than I do, then perhaps I know more than what should be expected of someone with my limited experience. That may be true, and it might not as I don't know how others here see me. However, if what I say generally makes sense, then judge me by my opinions and not my inexperience.

Hey Mr J , I find you most interesting , keep up your posts .

 

[nomore4s]

"Talk the talk and walk the walk" is a pretty foolish line.

It is true though. At the moment all you have is theory, in every endevour I've ever done there is always a gap between theory & practical application.

As for 4 ticks a day, please consider that one can trade multiple contracts. I believe I can compound most of my profit as I expect my profit to be far larger than my expenses. I admit this year probably won't be great, but I'm in this for the long haul, not to make a quick buck over a year or two

You say you don't have $50,000 but now you say you trade multiple contracts. I'm not saying this isn't possible but it would mean you are very under capitalised imo. You will also need to produce amazing returns on your capital every year just to pay for your expenses (after tax) let alone be able to grow your capital.

You'll have to forgive me for taking what you say with a grain of salt. You portray yourself as some accomplished trader when in fact you're anything but, the internet is full of wannabe legends and tbh I'm yet to see anything from you except theories & trading cliches that you can find in a million places on the net.

I'm not saying you won't be successful at trading or that you won't achieve your goals - hell you might turn out to be the next TH but you have only just begun your journey.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Ah but if you have a job, you save lives, teach or do something useful.

Instead of transferring bits of money back and forward all day when trading full time. You do not grow food, or teach or contribute in any meaningful way to the production of the resources that you consume

Wealth creation benefits a society. Communism doesn't.

 

[sleepy]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Ah but if you have a job, you save lives, teach or do something useful.

AND what about all those people who currently dont have jobs or have recently lost their jobs because of the recession?

Trading is a performance activity that rewards the successful and spits out the weak ... just like any other job/profession. Its also why trading can provide opportunities that other career paths dont provide, and why more and more people are pursuing self-directed trading and investment as a way of taking control of their futures.

At the end of the day, unless you have true financial freedom you need money to live and trading can provide that if you are any good. Although like most things it requires lots of work and hundreds of hours of deliberate practise and review.

------------------------------------

...... "To be sure, trading is not exactly the kind of secure occupation with benefits that many mid-career individuals might be expected to seek. What I hear from many of these newer market participants is that they feel a need to take control of their lives. Some are looking to take control of their finances after receiving disastrous buy-and-hold advice from advisers. Others are looking to take control by creating jobs for themselves when traditional alternatives are lacking.

Many see trading as ultimate control: you eat what you kill; your income is solely dependent upon your efforts and your success.

Think of those who are traumatized by child or spouse abuse, by violent crime, or by debilitating accidents. In every case where there has been a psychological recovery, it has been because the victim rose above victimhood and found ways to regain control. For many people, it seems, self-directed trading and investment have become a means for crafting a future in the wake of economic losses and tattered social contracts.

It's a sobering lesson, but it's also empowering: You cannot rely on any outside agent--not government, not employers--to secure your financial future. As one who works with traders, I worry for those who enter the market arena without proper training and preparation. As a psychologist, however, I laud the entrepreneurial spirit that leads people to rise above their losses and pursue fresh, creative horizons."

http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2009/07/thoughts-on-changing-demographic-face.html
------------------------------------

sleepy

 

[MRC & Co]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Hey Mr J , I find you most interesting , keep up your posts .

I'll back that.

Enjoy your posts.

 

[Bobby]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

I'll back that.

Enjoy your posts.

Thanks MRC ,

Mr J may well surprise , scalping feed I think could be his forte

 

[Mr J]

Thanks Bobby.

It is true though. At the moment all you have is theory, in every endevour I've ever done there is always a gap between theory & practical application.

It's not true, because my knowledge comes from experience. It just seems that you choose to dismiss that experience because it is not trading.

You say you don't have $50,000 but now you say you trade multiple contracts. I'm not saying this isn't possible but it would mean you are very under capitalised imo.

It's fine unless IB goes down during a crash while I'm in a trade.

You'll have to forgive me for taking what you say with a grain of salt. You portray yourself as some accomplished trader when in fact you're anything but, the internet is full of wannabe legends and tbh I'm yet to see anything from you except theories & trading cliches that you can find in a million places on the net.

I haven't portrayed myself to be anything other than what I am. Like I said before, I'm not the one to blame if you make assumptions about me. I'm not trying to be an internet legend, I just want to make a living from trading.

I'm not saying you won't be successful at trading or that you won't achieve your goals - hell you might turn out to be the next TH but you have only just begun your journey.

I freely admit I'm a novice at trading, but that doesn't make me a novice at everything related to trading. Yes, most of my posts aren't specifically about trades or markets, but that is because it is my weakness, and I'm not the type to talk about something I know nothing about. My strength is in what you dismissed as 'theory'. I consider it valuable, and I couldn't be a profitable trader without it. I feel I've had to experience a lot to find myself in a position to jump comfortably into trading. I might be a novice, but I've spent 7 years to get to this point.

 

[gooner]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Nonsense.

Traders buy stuff, hire people to do stuff.

Look deeper.

Hmm, a few thousand bucks to an accountant, some brokerage fees. That is just expenditure. The actual action of day trading does not add generate goods or services for the population as a whole.

Its distributing money from the unaware/uneducated to the wise/cunning.
- think natural selection.

- same as a casino really.

Quite right. And we agree that casinos are a great addition to our society. Actually, they are entertainment for some people, a service. So casinos are a service to the community.

How many foreign dollars do you bring from outside the country? I know I bring a few here and there. My business is an export business. That increases the wealth of Australia and I'm guessing you too :. Most jobs support the consumption industry. Whats the value of them?


But besides that I consider my "job" similar to a tennis player or football player or even an artist? What "value" do they have? What lives do they save? Probably none but they entertain the poor masses. Does that has value?

Scalping a few dollars off foreigners via trading does not add make anything or provide a service. Yes you are reducing the financial wealth of foreigners - if that makes you proud, so be it.

As for sports stars, they provide entertainment to the masses as you say. So there is value in that - lots of people get great joy from watching sports. Not so, your day trading.

Wealth creation benefits a society. Communism doesn't.

And you think that buying and selling shares all day creates wealth for a society? No increase in value, if you are a winner, someone else is a loser.

AND what about all those people who currently dont have jobs or have recently lost their jobs because of the recession?

Trading is a performance activity that rewards the successful and spits out the weak ... just like any other job/profession. Its also why trading can provide opportunities that other career paths dont provide, and why more and more people are pursuing self-directed trading and investment as a way of taking control of their futures.

sleepy

Not sure about the spit out the weak comment, but otherwise agree. However, the activity does not generate services or goods for society. You are living off everyone's else's production of real goods and services.


And I think someone said I was just trying to get a rise from someone. Not really. I don't feel as strongly about this issue as my posts may suggest, however find it interesting to sometimes argue a position strongly. I am unemployed and living off my savings/investments and I trade a bit on the side, so could be argued to be a hypocrite. However, I am actively looking for a job....

 

[tech/a]

However, I am actively looking for a job....

Why arent you consifering Trading for a living.
Or is it that you dont wish to work for youself----many dont.

(I have had staff come to me and make it clear that they will work all day everyday at a fair rate of pay BUT do nor want any leadership or responsibility rolls. These people are great employees loyal and hard working who I would dearly love to take on more responsibility as they short sell themselves in my view---but I adhere to their wishes as I value them.)

Point is not everyone is cut out to work for themselves and even fewer could trade for a living--they wouldnt be cut out for it.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Hmm, a few thousand bucks to an accountant, some brokerage fees. That is just expenditure. The actual action of day trading does not add generate goods or services for the population as a whole.

That's not really looking very deep.

Que sera sera - vive le difference etc

 

[gooner]

Why arent you consifering Trading for a living.
Or is it that you dont wish to work for youself----many dont.

(I have had staff come to me and make it clear that they will work all day everyday at a fair rate of pay BUT do nor want any leadership or responsibility rolls. These people are great employees loyal and hard working who I would dearly love to take on more responsibility as they short sell themselves in my view---but I adhere to their wishes as I value them.)

Point is not everyone is cut out to work for themselves and even fewer could trade for a living--they wouldnt be cut out for it.

tech/a

In terms of running a real business (not trading), I personally do not have the self-motivation to run one. I am too laid back. But better that I know that than blow $500k on buying a franchise and destroying the value.

However, as an employee, I am happy to work hard and indeed to manage people and take responsibility.

As for day trading - two reasons I would not do it. Firstly, as mentioned in my post, I personally want to make some contribution to society and I can not do that via day trading. Secondly, I don't think that I would be particularly good at it. [Although, I started investing in May last year, was down 30% at one stage, but managed to get in the green and am now 5% up. But I put that down to luck]

 

[cutz]

Hi gooner,

So we can assess your contribution to society, what do you do for a crust ?