Do you have to day trade to trade full time?

[Mr J]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Guys I really don't get the criticism of trading fulltime because you have to "stare at a screen all day"

As apposed to what??

Working the average job where you stare at a screen from 9 to 5. And have your income, hours, holidays, sick leave, over time, 'career' development, earning capacity, recognition, environment, colleagues, profit and life all controlled by someone else, mostly a tosser!

As opposed to playing golf in the afternoon or something I guess. I'm with you though. I love working for myself and wouldn't have it any other way. Work for me is more like hanging around at home. I'm not glued to the screen, I do something else with my time and take regular glances. I know what I like to trade, so when I see something promising that is when I'll focus on that market.

 

[tech/a]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

A bit off topic, but the actual figures here, and in most other Western countries is around 65% fail within the first 3 years. The 90% thrown around is not backed by any research

Maybe.
But most think running a business is all about the product or service in this case trading.When infact success in the end is due to how good you are/become at business.

I love working for myself and wouldn't have it any other way. Work for me is more like hanging around at home. I'm not glued to the screen, I do something else with my time and take regular glances. I know what I like to trade, so when I see something promising that is when I'll focus on that market.

Cant help remembering that you dont have $50k.
Seriously with the statements you have and are making youd think you actually knew.
Clearly you dont. Bit tough I know but really I dont think you qualify to make such statements.
The only one I know for sure is Radge.

 

[Aussiest]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

I'd be interested in a 10k->50k challenge. You wouldn't be able to offer odds that interest me though, as I feel that money would be better spent on trading than sitting in escrow. Nevermind, we'll likely have this discussion in 6-12 months .

I'm tempted to say i'll give you $200 in cash, for a bit of fun, if you can achieve this!

Scalping average 20 points per day on the SPI @ $25.00 per point, for 262 days = $131,000. That is not including the losses occurred through being stopped out. Remember i said an average of 20 points per day. Is an av. of 20 points per day on the SPI a reasonable estimate?

Come on guys, what do you reckon? Let's give Mr J the challenge?!...

 

[Mr J]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Tech, what does working for myself have anything to do with longterm trading success? I've worked for myself far longer than I've traded. You can't say I don't know, as you don't know me. I know myself, and despite being inexperienced at trading, I know the lifestyle, or at least my lifestyle.

Aussiest, I still have no expectation of how I will perform, other than believing I'm profitable, and knowing that with volume one doesn't need much of an edge to see large returns. I'd like to average at least 4 ticks per day, but that is just hope, not an expectation.

 

[nomore4s]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Cant help remembering that you dont have $50k.
Seriously with the statements you have and are making youd think you actually knew.
Clearly you dont. Bit tough I know but really I dont think you qualify to make such statements.

I tend to agree, talks the talk but is yet to actually walk the walk.

I'd like to average at least 4 ticks per day, but that is just hope, not an expectation.

Mr J, do you still live at home with your parents? Because I find it hard to believe anyone could live of an average of 4 ticks a day without living with their parents or having someone else to pay most of the bills. Especially since I recall you saying your living expenses are minimal and you could compound most of your winnings.

I now understand your lack of understanding when very experienced traders have mentioned the difficultly of compounding and growing capital after living expenses and tax are removed from the profit.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Not sure why just because anyone is in a 9 to 5 job they have someone else controlling there lives, you could say the same thing for you only your controlled by the HKFE

hardly my point
If I don't want to work tomorrow I don't have to or next week. Try ringing up your boss and tell him that your not coming in next week cause you don't feel like working. :

Or tell your boss that you did some really good work last week and have decided to reward yourself by taking a holiday although you have no holiday leave left :

Or telling her that you will not work on that project they need anymore because your colleges are wankers.

Or telling him that you did some really good work last week and you should get 10 x your wage. Working for yourself, which trading is, is the ultimate leverage. Effort and smarts is rewarded exponentially not so as a wage slave. Working for someone else is always 1 to 1 leverage.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

I think it's the stare at the screen all day by yourself which is the connotation.

Yep agree its a boring isolating job for sure. One of the reasons why I always keep coming back to the idea of working prop.

90% of Businesses fail in the First 3 yrs.

That is such a **** stat. Its completely wrong. It comes from, I think, the stats of business names not being re register after the initial registration.

Which has absolutely no link to actual real business that start.

And of course doesn't take into account the many many business that change name, especially after they are successfully on sold to the next owners who then change the biz name. So there is a very successful business, an exit strategy implemented, being thrown around as a failure.

 

[tech/a]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

That is such a **** stat. Its completely wrong. It comes from, I think, the stats of business names not being re register after the initial registration.

Which has absolutely no link to actual real business that start.

And of course doesn't take into account the many many business that change name, especially after they are successfully on sold to the next owners who then change the biz name. So there is a very successful business, an exit strategy implemented, being thrown around as a failure.

If you consider business success making a below Average wage or No wage then it is complete ****

hardly my point
If I don't want to work tomorrow I don't have to or next week. Try ringing up your boss and tell him that your not coming in next week cause you don't feel like working.

Or tell your boss that you did some really good work last week and have decided to reward yourself by taking a holiday although you have no holiday leave left

Or telling her that you will not work on that project they need anymore because your colleges are wankers.

Or telling him that you did some really good work last week and you should get 10 x your wage. Working for yourself, which trading is, is the ultimate leverage. Effort and smarts is rewarded exponentially not so as a wage slave. Working for someone else is always 1 to 1 leverage.

If you cant do this then you dont have a successful business.
Now tell me 90% of people who start a business end up with this!

Working for someone else is always 1 to 1 leverage

Tell me more,I'm interested in how you interpret that!

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

If you consider business success making a below Average wage or No wage then it is complete ****

Tech you said that 90% fail based on what? A stat that you don't know where it comes from. I have told you where I think it comes from, business name registration - you can hardly count them as business.

And I would say that someone who didn't make it to riches hasn't completely failed. Sure a lot of people end up trapped in business that they are essentially a slave to. I've been there. But where is the is failure/success line? receivership/bankruptcy? less than 2 time the average wage? If you don't reach the point of absolute freedom is that failure? Is your stat so black and white between success and failure?

As for the working for someone else you get paid based on hours X rate for most jobs. You can only increase your hours so far and your hourly rate very quickly hits a ceiling. Only jobs that can leverage other peoples work are things like managers, CEOs etc. But what % are they?

 

[prawn_86]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

As i have said before Tech, the actual stats for failure (defined as bankruptcy/insolvency) is around 65% in the first three years.

The 90% is just an urban legend. If you want me to provide studies to back this fact up let me know and it will take me a while to find them again

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

As for the original thread question to "do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?" here is a formula that I would think goes to answering the question,

Capital required = Current income X 4
_____________ _________________________
_______________ (% Return /100)

If you earn $50,000 and think you can make 40% per year I reckon you would need at least $500,000 capital to replace your wage. I don't think the method has a lot to do with trading fulltime. Its got more to do with capital and return. I wouldn't give up the day job on 2 times your wage earnings as that is essentially the same as you lose 1/2 on tax, expenses, blah blah. 3 times dosn't leave you much for compounding and the 1 in 3 month DD etc. When you get to 4 times current earning the R:R starts moving in your favour in regards to compounding.

IMO.

 

[tech/a]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Is your stat so black and white between success and failure?

You may have noticed that's the way I look at everything in life.
No grey.
Black/White.
Right/Wrong.
Leave/Fix.

I'm quoting the urban myth.

So will re phrase. As it seems to get people excited.
A large majority of business fail my measure of success.
My idea of a successful business is one which allow you (The owner) the freedom of the restraints of both time and money.

Capital required = Current income X 4
_________________________
(% Return /100)

If you earn $50,000 and think you can make 40% per year I reckon you would need at least $500,000 capital to replace your wage.

Maths not a strong point T/H?

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Maths not a strong point T/H?

I don't think there is anything wrong with the maths, its HTML editing that I have problems with : (better now?)

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

So will re phrase. As it seems to get people excited.
A large majority of business fail my measure of success.
My idea of a successful business is one which allow you (The owner) the freedom of the restraints of both time and money.

Well by your measure then being successful at trading is more likely to be a "successful business" than most business. Not having staff, suppliers nor customers problems leaves you with just 1 worry - profit. Get that right and you have far more freedom than a 'normal' biz from my experience.

 

[nunthewiser]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

You may have noticed that's the way I look at everything in life.
No grey.

My idea of a successful business is one which allow you (The owner) the freedom of the restraints of both time and money.

i operate and live in one big GREY area i am comfortable moving along with change and adapting to whatever enviroment i find me or my intrests in

view nothing but black and white and miss 80% of the world pass you by

agree re business and success but with every walk one takes , one must still build the foundation to create the freedom.

 

[tech/a]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Not having staff, suppliers nor customers problems leaves you with just 1 worry - profit

Now there is that!

 

[Mr J]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

I tend to agree, talks the talk but is yet to actually walk the walk.

Mr J, do you still live at home with your parents? Because I find it hard to believe anyone could live of an average of 4 ticks a day without living with their parents or having someone else to pay most of the bills. Especially since I recall you saying your living expenses are minimal and you could compound most of your winnings.

I now understand your lack of understanding when very experienced traders have mentioned the difficultly of compounding and growing capital after living expenses and tax are removed from the profit.

"Talk the talk and walk the walk" is a pretty foolish line. It suggests that an opinion is only worthwhile if it has results behind it, and this is quite shallow. An opinion should be judged on its own merit. If it is clever or insightful, I don't care who said it. I'm not suggesting that everything I say is clever or insightful, but it's not garbage either. Feel free to point out any errors in my posts. If most of it is fine, what's the problem?

My knowledge is drawn from experience, and most of my trading knowledge was aquired though my previous activities. I've been doing those a while, so yes, much of what I say has experience behind it. Just about the only thing I'm inexperienced with in trading are the trades themselves, and I've never suggested otherwise.

No, I don't live with my parents. My expenses are small, necessary expenses being $400. As for 4 ticks a day, please consider that one can trade multiple contracts. I believe I can compound most of my profit as I expect my profit to be far larger than my expenses. I admit this year probably won't be great, but I'm in this for the long haul, not to make a quick buck over a year or two.

I don't lack understanding of compounding at all. I always point out that it depends on personal circumstance, perhaps you missed that.

 

[Frank D]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

I find it hard to believe that a trader wouldn't compound. Increasing position size after gaining capital is compounding, and I would think all traders do this.

That has nothing to do with compounding. Leverage and unknown profits
and losses and the theory of compounding aren't the same.

'Compounding' is based the accumulation of interest paid back to the
principle over the long term. The greater the interest and the longer
the timeframe, the larger the interest is paid back to the principle.

You want to get to the point of earning enough interest so that you don’t
have to work ever again. That's compounding and it should be part of a 'long term plan'.

You’re trying to compare compounding with leverage positions through a
form of speculation or gambling. You shouldn't. You can’t
separate potential losses to the exact same concept of compounding.

The 'short term plan' is working with leverage positions so you increase
your primary income. That can be as a full time trader, or adding
extra income to your own primary job, which then leads to a higher
standard of living and wealth creation.

A smart trader would and should be working on a long term plan all the time.

If they're not then it probably means that they 'couldn't give a toss about
a long term plan', or 'they don't fully understand the concept', or 'they
are under capitalised', or their short-term plan isn't going too well and
they continually lose money trading.

Mr J,

Maybe you don't give a toss about a long term plan....

But I think either you don't fully understand the concept, you're
under capitalised, or your short-term plan isn't going too well.

 

[Mr J]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

'Compounding' is based the accumulation of interest paid back to the
principle over the long term. The greater the interest and the longer
the timeframe, the larger the interest is paid back to the principle.

That is one definiton. Another is to increase, such as what would be achieved by reinvesting profits (or losses) into the initial capital.

Maybe you don't give a toss about a long term plan....

I do, but it's not currently a focus. I would like to see that my trading can sustain myself before thinking about long-term strategies. I have no problem admitting that I no nothing about long-term strategies, and don't talk about them, which is why my comments in Tech's thread were quite limited (to arguing that one can compound short-term).

 

[professor_frink]

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

"Talk the talk and walk the walk" is a pretty foolish line. It suggests that an opinion is only worthwhile if it has results behind it, and this is quite shallow. An opinion should be judged on its own merit. If it is clever or insightful, I don't care who said it. I'm not suggesting that everything I say is clever or insightful, but it's not garbage either. Feel free to point out any errors in my posts. If most of it is fine, what's the problem?

Most people will be annoyed and call you out when you are misrepresenting yourself- you speak as if you have quite a bit of experience when in fact you have barely enough to be a danger to yourself(not saying that this has been done intentionally on your part, but up until this thread I thought you had at least a little bit more experience than you actually do)

Personally, I've been trading since early 2001 and consider myself to be only just moving past the stage of being a rank amateur.I was profitable pretty quickly in my early trading years, but looking back on it now I put it down to being fairly lucky in the way my trading developed in relation to the general state of the market at the time. It wasn't until the middle of 2007 when I realised exactly how little I knew, and it's something that I've been working on ever since. 2 years on and I'm still a massive work in progress.

You'll have to excuse mere mortals like myself for having a few doubts when someone shows up with what only amounts to a drop in the ocean of experience and says that trading is easy and that certain things can be done when you haven't actually done them yet