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COVID-19: How Not To Kill an Economy

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rederob

rederob

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First, the health message to COVID-19 should have been encapsulated in really simple rules;
  1. Become fanatical about hand cleanliness
  2. Do not touch your face with your hands if they have not been sanitisied/washed
    • Wearing a mask when out in public helps
  3. Social distancing reduces risk.
Combined with effective testing regimes, the above would allow an economy to operate without requiring blanket restrictions through harsh lockdown measures. We know from the experiences of South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore (and to a lesser extent Japan) that economies do not need to be ruined in order to control COVID-19.

We haven't we tried to emulate their relative success stories, and even today we cannot.
On the personal health measures front, try buying hand sanitiser or face masks (we were lucky to have some left from our last overseas trip) - even rarer than toilet paper! So points 1 & 2 are tricky, leaving us with only point 3: hardly acceptable 3 months after our government first became aware of this virus.

We are pouring billions of dollars in to propping up businesses but a pittance into medical research and necessary health products, including absolute basics such as sanitiser and face masks.

We should be concentrating our efforts in providing the necessities for safe public outings instead of implementing Maginot Line style border lockdowns which somehow merely assume transport operators and tradies are automatically safe to cross - mind-numbingly illogical.

We should be employing teams of people sanitising public places, transport and stores/offices so that we can continue going about most business in a safe manner, especially when practising rules 1, 2, and 3. (The clear exception are mass gatherings where following these rules are impractical.)

We should have implemented best pratice in testing so everyone concerned about their health status could visit an easy accessible site (not a hospital) and get their results back in a few hours at most.

Instead we are in a defeatist mentality where harsh measures are seen as prevailing for many months to come.
 
No proof that wearing a mask out in public helps, if you HAVE IT then it helps stop the spread but if you don't all you are doing is wearing a wet mask that is collecting everything around it and then when you take it off you are infecting your hands. Take a look at anyone that has been wearing a mask for longer then 5 minutes and you will see the nice wet patch on the front of it. Unless you are changing you mask every 20 minutes or so its pointless, plus every time you change it you are putting yourself at risk from infection from whats collected on the mask.

If people follow social distancing correctly there would be no need to wear masks. Stay minimum of 1.5m away, do not leave your house if you show any symptoms what so ever. I am out and about for work and I see people congregating constantly, I see old people well over there 70s out and about buying stuff they dont need. People need to stay home, that is the best thing we can do to stop this.

Testing we are far ahead of any country, SA is far ahead of any state in Australia also. There is no point just testing everyone if they are not showing symptoms, its a waste of time and resources. There is no shortage of test kits in Australia at the moment.

Sanitising everything doesnt mean we can go about our daily business, what if the first person who walks through the freshly sanitised place is a carrier of Covid-19? We cant sanitise everything constantly so this is just not a realistic thing to do, yes I agree we need to better sanitise obviously high touch points (like supermarket trolleys, hand rails etc) but having teams of people running around and sanitising everyone is just again not economical. If people practise social distancing and stay at home if sick its not necessary. People shouldnt be participating in public outings they should be at home right now.

I do agree with the sentiment of your post, that we are not doing enough.
 
So your logic is that it is better for the gems to be on your face than on the mask?
In case you do not temove your mask properly?
Please, the ONLY reason the general public is not told to use mask is because we do not have enough for people who critically need them
Now the us has change its stance, please wear something anything
You will NOT be sick wearing a mask, at worst useless
 
I guess though against my own argument, the issue is you can have it and not know you have it for up to 14 days or maybe longer.. so therefore wearing a mask before you have symptoms would help stop the spread. There seems to be a lot of conflicting evidence either way on what to do... thinking about it a bit more and just been reading up on it I could be mistaken, conceding here I am maybe wrong.

For me, I wont be wearing a mask at this stage, I will just be trying my best to avoid people.

Also, I have noticed people wearing face masks and gloves when driving around in cars... I ask why?
 
matty77 said:
No proof that wearing a mask out in public helps, if you HAVE IT then it helps stop the spread but if you don't all you are doing is wearing a wet mask that is collecting everything around it and then when you take it off you are infecting your hands. Take a look at anyone that has been wearing a mask for longer then 5 minutes and you will see the nice wet patch on the front of it. Unless you are changing you mask every 20 minutes or so its pointless, plus every time you change it you are putting yourself at risk from infection from whats collected on the mask.

If people follow social distancing correctly there would be no need to wear masks. Stay minimum of 1.5m away, do not leave your house if you show any symptoms what so ever. I am out and about for work and I see people congregating constantly, I see old people well over there 70s out and about buying stuff they dont need. People need to stay home, that is the best thing we can do to stop this.

Testing we are far ahead of any country, SA is far ahead of any state in Australia also. There is no point just testing everyone if they are not showing symptoms, its a waste of time and resources. There is no shortage of test kits in Australia at the moment.

Sanitising everything doesnt mean we can go about our daily business, what if the first person who walks through the freshly sanitised place is a carrier of Covid-19? We cant sanitise everything constantly so this is just not a realistic thing to do, yes I agree we need to better sanitise obviously high touch points (like supermarket trolleys, hand rails etc) but having teams of people running around and sanitising everyone is just again not economical. If people practise social distancing and stay at home if sick its not necessary. People shouldnt be participating in public outings they should be at home right now.

I do agree with the sentiment of your post, that we are not doing enough.
Click to expand...
There are other threads that address wearing a mask, and if you watched the video link the rationale would have been clearer - it's for us to prevent touching our faces more than anything. As @qldfrog has many times elsewhere suggested, anything is better than nothing, but we instead have nothing!

With respect to testing, I suggest you look at what other countries have put in place as we are not an example of best practice. If we are so good, why aren't we testing people who are allowed to cross our borders? Why did over 600 passengers from one ship lead to such a calamity Australia-wide? You know people have been turned away from hospitals, only to return days later and then be tested positive!

My point on testing is that it should be available to those who feel they need it due to immediate health concerns or if the nature of their jobs involve significant public contact.
Wuhan is going out of lockdown next week because they use a colour-coded app that informs everyone about their COVID-19 status. Exactly where are we on that front?

The issue about broadscale public sanitising effort relates to a perception of public confidence in going out in public. If we are hand sanitising and wearing masks then wherever we go will remain virus free. If where we went was not clean to begin, then we just become unwary carriers.

We need to be creating an external environment that we feel safe in regardless of our personal efforts. But as I said, most people in Australia cannot satisfy the first 2 rules when they leave home (for whatever reason) because we cannot accommodate their needs.

We need to stop poking the bear.
[edit - my post crossed your reply, so hopefully I added something else that was useful]
 
rederob said:
We should be employing teams of people sanitising public places, transport and stores/offices so that we can continue going about most business in a safe manner, especially when practising rules 1, 2, and 3. (The clear exception are mass gatherings where following these rules are impractical.)
Click to expand...

I doubt if it's "practically possible" to disinfect all offices and public areas plus public transport. We don't have enough ppe for doctors and health care workers, let alone the disinfectors.


rederob said:
We should have implemented best pratice in testing so everyone concerned about their health status could visit an easy accessible site (not a hospital) and get their results back in a few hours at most.
Click to expand...

Yes, we should be doing more here. I wonder if we could use FLIR technology (forward looking infrared) in offices and other public buildings to detect people who are hotter than normal and give them attention.

Couriers could drop off and pick up test kits from private homes with the results emailed out. This would enable people to stay in isolation while being tested and protect hospital staff.
 
Sex is now via asexual reproduction.

CV19 like herpes is a gift that keep on giving.

Singapore and even South Korea who tested and were prepared having 5 other virus events post 2000 ... Singapore is NOW in total lock-down.

Wave after wave ... even with social distancing will occur until vaccine in 12 plus months.


Australian response is up there with the best. Mistakes yes, but USA response for 329 million as of March 2nd had done 2000 tests. We had done 100 times adjusted MORE ....

Canada right next door similar numbers.

Claims of warnings ... first was WHO on 29th Dec then 8th Jan then emergency declared with the full virus and spread rate revealed 30th Jan .... emergency level. Then Pandemic level.

All nations got the same alerts at the same time. Ours acted sufficiently and still does so .... in fact a leader in testing which even a casual look would reveal.

To have it revealed ... on the 30th Jan that CV19 spread at a high rate was one thing, that people not showing symptoms infectious .... unlike SARS or MERS which only became infectious after obvious signs makes control ... of CV19 ... virtually impossible and even if we stomp the hell out of this wave, some with little or no symptoms still infectious ... will be out there. Basically a cloud of infection surrounds them and any and all surfaces they touch remain potentially contagious and good luck stopping 5 year olds touching stuff.

Basically ... suck it up ... till a vaccine arrives because that's reality for now. Social distancing reduces spread risk .... but its not eliminated and well .... if you pretend every surface you dont know is likely covered in virus potentially for 72 hours your thinking close to reality.

Next C grade movie I get trapped in is one with Bo Derick in her youth or Kim Bassinger.
 
kahuna1 said:
Sex is now via asexual reproduction.

CV19 like herpes is a gift that keep on giving.

Singapore and even South Korea who tested and were prepared having 5 other virus events post 2000 ... Singapore is NOW in total lock-down.

Wave after wave ... even with social distancing will occur until vaccine in 12 plus months.


Australian response is up there with the best. Mistakes yes, but USA response for 329 million as of March 2nd had done 2000 tests. We had done 100 times adjusted MORE ....

Canada right next door similar numbers.

Claims of warnings ... first was WHO on 29th Dec then 8th Jan then emergency declared with the full virus and spread rate revealed 30th Jan .... emergency level. Then Pandemic level.

All nations got the same alerts at the same time. Ours acted sufficiently and still does so .... in fact a leader in testing which even a casual look would reveal.

To have it revealed ... on the 30th Jan that CV19 spread at a high rate was one thing, that people not showing symptoms infectious .... unlike SARS or MERS which only became infectious after obvious signs makes control ... of CV19 ... virtually impossible and even if we stomp the hell out of this wave, some with little or no symptoms still infectious ... will be out there. Basically a cloud of infection surrounds them and any and all surfaces they touch remain potentially contagious and good luck stopping 5 year olds touching stuff.

Basically ... suck it up ... till a vaccine arrives because that's reality for now. Social distancing reduces spread risk .... but its not eliminated and well .... if you pretend every surface you dont know is likely covered in virus potentially for 72 hours your thinking close to reality.

Next C grade movie I get trapped in is one with Bo Derick in her youth or Kim Bassinger.
Click to expand...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjALegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw1_o3rn-lS7MYKTS3TngU9U
 
SirRumpole said:
I doubt if it's "practically possible" to disinfect all offices and public areas plus public transport. We don't have enough ppe for doctors and health care workers, let alone the disinfectors.
Click to expand...
I suspect you're right but in the case of public transport, there are at least some buses designed so they can literally be hosed out.

Park the bus on a level surface, kneel the bus which drops the front left hand corner, hose it out and the water simply runs out the door. The seat fabric is 100% synthetic and does not absorb water, everything else is waterproof apart from the driver's controls etc. Put an industrial sized fan heater inside to dry it or if the weather's suitable then just leave it parked at the depot with the door open.

I've no idea if that's practical with all public transport buses but if it is well then simply spraying an abundance of suitable disinfectant everywhere or perhaps using the fog / mist approach that has been used outside overseas would be pretty quick and easy. Fill the bus up with mist and let it naturally dissipate.:2twocents
 
matty77 said:
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...ive-coverage/495a807739e273d0f8e69641c584e8e5

Dont wear masks?
Click to expand...

Funny isn't it, these people are using the WHO for guidance, many would suggest they actually made it worse by not acting on information provided by Taiwan

Most Asian countries wear masks a lot since all these viruses started appearing in China.

WHO says it spreads through droplets in the air But Don't wear a mask to stop this, sounds very Suss to me.

"We know how to stop it spreading but we recommend that you don't do that" no wonder conspiracy theories abound on this

Medical protection masks for close work need to be reserved for those who need them, any simple cloth mask will stop the cough explosion of air or even a big exhalation will throw air a fair way.

Of course, a first quality, super burp will chuck it metres, we can stop that happening so easily
with masks
 
The mask wearer actually does an excellent job of protecting everyone around him/her from his own droplets when he speaks or expires a breath. So much so that in Austria, it's compulsory to wear a disposable mask upon entering a shop or supermarket there. They're provided to each customer.
 
SirRumpole said:
Surely they must do something to stop particles being exhaled a distance. Should we be wearing safety glasses too, if the virus can get in through the eyes ?
Click to expand...

Good point, I noticed in China that those doing the testing had face shields on, funny no mention of that from WHO
 
matty77 said:
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...ive-coverage/495a807739e273d0f8e69641c584e8e5

Dont wear masks?
Click to expand...
Trump official's just issued guidelines recommending the wearing of face masks.
WHO wooda thunk!

Trump is now using his Defense Production Act to order 3M to produce face masks, having previously used it to compel General Motors to produce ventilators.
Hail the new Messiah!

Where are our respective levels of governments in terms of increasing employment numbers by investing in medical research, health equipment production, and sanitary measures (ie broad scale disinfection of public facilities including transport? That's aside from taking a leaf out of WA's copy book and setting aside a complete medical facility for dealing with COVID-19. One should have been built afresh in Sydney and Melbourne - along the lines of temporary field hospitals - to remove any chance of cross infection with "general admissions." Wuhan had separate hospitals for those testing "positive" versus those needing intensive care. (Home isolation was not an option if you tested positive!)

Rather than focus on wage subsidies, why aren't we instead deploying monies on health initiatives that prepare us to emerge quicker and more resilient from this virus.
 
rederob said:
Rather than focus on wage subsidies, why aren't we instead deploying monies on health initiatives that prepare us to emerge quicker and more resilient from this virus.
Click to expand...

I think we need to do both. If people can't earn money to live then great social upheaval could result.

Governments have to get people onside and cooperating, if they just ignore the social isolation to earn a living, then that would spell disaster for containing the spread.
 

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