Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion

[rederob]

Umm no it wasn't I quoted what it said in the following post. You messed up.

Please follow what is presented below this as it will show you have not properly read what was written, nor understood it.

Directly from The Lancet's reference which you linked to it says:

"The symptom onset date of the first patient identified was Dec 1, 2019. None of his family members developed fever or any respiratory symptoms. No epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases."​

So this makes it clear that the first patient admitted with symptoms cannot be the same as the patient who died because it goes on to say:

"The first fatal case, who had continuous exposure to the market, was admitted to hospital because of a 7-day history of fever, cough, and dyspnoea. 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalised in the isolation ward."​

It is impossible that anyone associated with the first patient could have had the virus, and the wife being referred to was married to the dead patient, not the first patient.
You, however concluded that:

In other words, as early as the second week of December, Wuhan doctors were finding cases that indicated the virus was spreading from one human to another.

That was impossible.

As the first fatal case was recorded on 10 January 2020 it was accurate for the Chinese health authorities to advise the WHO that in early January they could not confirm human to human transmission.
This point is, however, a technicality.
Being able to confirm - or show clear evidence - is not the same as it cannot happen. It is wholly unrealistic for any medical practitioner to think that a SARS-like virus would not have human-to-human transmission capabilities.
Most lay readers will not appreciate this basic fact.
Most journalists seem clueless to this point and have engaged in speculative dribble.
Despite there being no clear evidence the WHO had warned countries about the risk of human-to-human transmission as early as 10 January, and urged precautions.

 

[dutchie]

When Political Correctness costs thousands of lives....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...es-U-S-funding-World-Health-Organization.html

 

[rederob]

When Political Correctness costs thousands of lives....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...es-U-S-funding-World-Health-Organization.html

That's pretty funny because the USA is a hundred million behind in its contributions to the WHO. Looks like another case of Trump failing to pay his contractors.

 

[dutchie]

That's pretty funny because the USA is a hundred million behind in its contributions to the WHO. Looks like another case of Trump failing to pay his contractors.

Maybe it would not have been as funny if I had just said.......

Political Correctness by WHO cost thousands of lives.

 

[rederob]

Maybe it would not have been as funny if I had just said.......
Political Correctness by WHO cost thousands of lives.

Really?
I can point to actions that were advised but not followed, in some cases for months.
On a best case scenario it would not have been possible for China to advise the WHO before mid December 2019, and that's on the basis of perfect knowledge from every individual involved.
It took Wuhan 2 weeks to go into lockdown once they realised human to human transmission was happening.
Despite this most western countries did very little until too late. And not a single country did what was done in Wuhan because apparently we still think we know better.
I guess you are into blame and prefer to ignore how well China and the WHO have acted to an unprecedented event.

 

[basilio]

You don't have to be a CCP shrill to recognise that while China made serious mistakes in the first weeks of the CV Virus it very quickly realised how bad the situation was and took drastic steps to bring it under control.
And every country in the world had the opportunity to see how quickly this virus could spread unless stopped in its tracks.

Some countries took the required actions - Taiwan, Singarpre, Korea. Others like the US under Donald Trump invoked magical thinking and routine denial and refused to either prepare its facilities or take serious preventative action.

The result has been a totally foreseeable disaster.

The response by Donald Trump to blame everyone else is also totally foreseeable. He never ever tales teh blame. He always looks for another scapegoat.

 

[Logique]

Serves the WHO right. Good move by the President.

POLITICO: By ALICE MIRANDA OLLSTEIN
Trump halts funding to World Health Organization
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/14/trump-world-health-organization-funding-186786
Updated: 04/14/2020
President Donald Trump announced Tuesday night that he is halting funding to the World Health Organization while his administration reviews the group’s handling of the coronavirus, accusing it of bungling the response and failing to communicate the disease’s threat....
...The U.S. contributes more than any other country to WHO, at more than $400 million per year. Cutting off funds to the group, which has a $4.8 billion annual budget, will be a major blow to the organization as it conducts vaccine trials, distributes test kits and advises governments around the world...

 

[basilio]

Yep. Classic Spawn of Satan playback.
Find a scapegoat to divert attention from being directly responsible for the biggest mass death in US history.
This story pulls together the whole sorry saga of Trumps refusal to recognise how dangerous this virus was despite the catastrophic outcomes in China

Trump turns against WHO to mask his own stark failings on Covid-19 crisis
Dishonest decision to pull funding from World Health Organisation will endanger public health

Donald Trump’s declared suspension of funding of the World Health Organisation in the midst of a pandemic is confirmation – if any were needed – that he is in search of scapegoats for his administration’s much delayed and chaotic response to the crisis.

....Trump’s turn against the WHO only gathered pace over the past week, as more and more reports emerged of the administration’s own complacent and dysfunctional response.

The impact of a block on US funds is likely to mitigated by other countries, who have almost unanimously expressed confidence in the WHO, stepping up their own financial backing. The UK, for example, has announced £200m in new funding for international efforts to contain and combat the pandemic, of which £65m is earmarked for the WHO.

How well Trump’s scapegoating of the WHO will play in the US election is impossible to predict, but on the world stage it will undoubtedly be seen as yet another step in an accelerating US abdication of global leadership.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ask-his-own-stark-failings-on-covid-19-crisis

 

[sptrawler]

The problems with BIG organisations, one doesn't know who is in who's pocket, as has been shown with the Olympic committee scandals.
Just my opinion.
I think there will be a hell of a lot more politics, to play out with this virus and I think they will fall in Trumps favour, not China's.
The WHO may end up as collateral damage, who knows, but a lot more truth still has to come out IMO.
You know what the media is like when they have been barking up the wrong tree, they go rampaging, to try and impress those they have been hoodwinking.
A case in point, the media was very concerned about Boris Johnson catching virus, yet 6 months ago they were wishing him dead. lol
Reason being, Boris has proven them wrong, there has been no disaster leaving the EU, it may well prove a master stroke with regard the virus.
Again just my thoughts.

 

[qldfrog]

You don't have to be a CCP shrill to recognise that while China made serious mistakes in the first weeks of the CV Virus it very quickly realised how bad the situation was and took drastic steps to bring it under control.
And every country in the world had the opportunity to see how quickly this virus could spread unless stopped in its tracks.

Some countries took the required actions - Taiwan, Singarpre, Korea. Others like the US under Donald Trump invoked magical thinking and routine denial and refused to either prepare its facilities or take serious preventative action.

The result has been a totally foreseeable disaster.

The response by Donald Trump to blame everyone else is also totally foreseeable. He never ever tales teh blame. He always looks for another scapegoat.

But you have to be CCP shrill to deny the WHO did a pathetic work to please their master;
was discussed at the time, and their effort not to use the word pandemic to save half a billion in pandemic bonds..remember the discussion;
No one sane can trust any WHO release or recommendation;
Still remember their recommendation not to eat wildlife and restrain contact with animals as part of this corona virus epidemic .sure.... bloody useful
They have been 30 days too late on any reaction;
Symptomatic of a bloated organization with fat cats, conveniences roles at the top;

Remind me of QLD Dr Jeannette Young , our chief health officer, a mate's job gone wrong..
Cosy work, a report every 2 year since 2005..yeap 15years

I pity the on site personnel who are doing critical and dangerous work under such management, ebola coronavirus, HIV;
There is the need for a WHO, but definitely lessons need to be learnt and this organisation dissolved, reminds me of UNESCO both roles are needed but WHO (well its function) is even more critical to mankind future.
I admire Trump act, now we need to rebuild something efficient and technical whose leader is not chosen based on skin colour or continent of birth

 

[rederob]

moXJO,

Thanks you for putting that together. It corroborates information I have seen from many sources now. Everyone on this forum, whether they agree with moXJO's political views or not, should read it to fully understand the extent that the CCP went to cover up the original outbreak and obfuscate the nature of the virus and in so doing endangering human life and well being on the planet.

You don't do much checking do you!
He lifted his article from here, and it was under the unbiased heading of:
The Comprehensive Timeline of China’s COVID-19 Lies

So I will look at another claim it made given it stuffed up the very first point:

"December 25: Chinese medical staff in two hospitals in Wuhan are suspected of contracting viral pneumonia and are quarantined. This is additional strong evidence of human-to-human transmission."
​

And here's the evidence it relied on:

"Around December 25, 2019 , I heard that two hospitals in Wuhan had medical personnel suspected of being infected with unexplained viral pneumonia , and were isolated, including those in the respiratory department. I realized at the time that the situation might not be simple."​

While it is not impossible this happened, especially the quarantining of other patients, given we know a doctor had diagnosed a SARS-like virus, it remains hearsay. To claim hearsay is "additional strong evidence of human-to-human transmission" is ambitious.

 

[rederob]

But you have to be CCP shrill to deny the WHO did a pathetic work to please their master;
was discussed at the time, and their effort not to use the word pandemic to save half a billion in pandemic bonds..

The only people saying this are those who do not know how the process works.
Furthermore, the WHO has no legal basis for declaring a pandemic," it's just a symbolic gesture. They are limited to calling a "Public Health Emergency of International Concern" (PHEIC).
Pandemic bonds are not governed by the WHO.
Keep up the good work froggy.
It would be sad to see facts get in the way of your fairy tales.

 

[dutchie]

Maybe it would not have been as funny if I had just said.......

Political Correctness by WHO cost thousands of lives.

 

[rederob]

View attachment 102308

That's true.
Thanks for reposting.

 

[sptrawler]

Well someone in Perth, who broke the self isolation rules, got a month in the 'can'.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...onavirus-quarantine-by-leaving-hotel/12149908

 

[bellenuit]

You don't have to be a CCP shrill to recognise that while China made serious mistakes in the first weeks of the CV Virus it very quickly realised how bad the situation was and took drastic steps to bring it under control.

That is not the issue Bas. Yes, they took drastic action while simultaneously encouraging other countries to be lax about their response to the crisis when it came to international travel. There is no way one could justify them locking down Wuhan (and some other cities) with almost no contact allowed with others not in their unit because of the danger it posed, while denouncing other countries from not allowing the free movement of Chinese citizens in and out of their country. At that point in time they knew the virus was highly infectious and dangerous.

One possible reason touted was that having being too late to respond themselves to the initial outbreak, they decided to intentionally cause it to spread to other countries so that the CCP could obfuscate the origins of the virus (and we know that they tried to blame the US). Also being in a better position to control their own population due to their political system, they would also be able to show how much better they were in controlling the virus that the West. This was all about protecting the CCP.

But you still haven't answered the question I posed. Why did they condemn other countries from stopping travel to and from China while at the same time imposing the most stringent isolation regime on its own people?

Their initial responses were not mistakes, but an attempted cover up. This is well documented, as moXJO has shown. When they condemned other countries from stopping China travel, the severity of the virus was well known by them, hence their lockdown.

 

[sptrawler]

That is not the issue Bas. Yes, they took drastic action while simultaneously encouraging other countries to be lax about their response to the crisis when it came to international travel. There is no way one could justify them locking down Wuhan (and some other cities) with almost no contact allowed with others not in their unit because of the danger it posed, while denouncing other countries from not allowing the free movement of Chinese citizens in and out of their country. At that point in time they knew the virus was highly infectious and dangerous.

One possible reason touted was that having being too late to respond themselves to the initial outbreak, they decided to intentionally cause it to spread to other countries so that the CCP could obfuscate the origins of the virus (and we know that they tried to blame the US). Also being in a better position to control their own population due to their political system, they would also be able to show how much better they were in controlling the virus that the West. This was all about protecting the CCP.

But you still haven't answered the question I posed. Why did they condemn other countries from stopping travel to and from China while at the same time imposing the most stringent isolation regime on its own people?

Their initial responses were not mistakes, but an attempted cover up. This is well documented, as moXJO has shown. When they condemned other countries from stopping China travel, the severity of the virus was well known by them, hence their lockdown.

Guy's untill the media blame China, a lot of the posters won't, what part of that don't you understand?
Once the media find that China is responsible, then the posters move on to the next media instigated uproar and moral indignation.
Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[Macquack]

I admire Trump act, now we need to rebuild something efficient and technical whose leader is not chosen based on skin colour or continent of birth

You have to be joking Frog?

If only, the head of the World Health Organisation was white, he could have saved the world!

What about the white guy who is Health Minister in NSW, and let a ship full of Corona Virus infected passengers just disperse into the night in NSW and then the rest of Australia. Did not hear anyone question his skin colour.

 

[hja]

You have to be joking Frog?

If only, the head of the World Health Organisation was white, he could have saved the world!

What about the white guy who is Health Minister in NSW, and let a ship full of Corona Virus infected passengers just disperse into the night in NSW and then the rest of Australia. Did not hear anyone question his skin colour.

Nah, I think he meant that they (WHO) put him there because they felt obliged or encouraged to fill minority group quotas, to add to the legitimacy or to maintain a good international appearance of such an "organisation". So not just based on colour or ethnicity, but also of geographical origin.

 

[sptrawler]

You have to be joking Frog?

If only, the head of the World Health Organisation was white, he could have saved the world!

What about the white guy who is Health Minister in NSW, and let a ship full of Corona Virus infected passengers just disperse into the night in NSW and then the rest of Australia. Did not hear anyone question his skin colour.

Yes I think frog may have been taken out of context, you wouldn't say he was William Shakespeare.
But with regard the dude who let everyone off the ship, I bet he has wad punched his undies, a few times since then.
I bet he wishes he could re run that phone call again.