Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion

mullokintyre · 20 October 2021

So the wife got a call to do a locum in Albury, then got asked to go to Merimbula for the next one.
She suggested I accompany her for the driving, and I could go fishing.
I was not worried about going to NSW, but I was worried about getting back to Vic.
So I had a look at the latest health missives from the Vic CHO.
I was interested in reading what the current border crossing permit system had in store for me.
Victorian Border Crossing Permit Directions (No 34) is its offical title.
It reads like a standard government legal paper, totally opaque.
And its 53 pages long.
Do the bureaucrats seriously think its citizens are going to read a 53 page legal document without having a law degree and make any sense of it??
The crap we have to go thru to please Genghis Dan and his cohorts is enough to drive you to drink.
But not that we will be able to any time soon.
Despite the pubs and clubs opening at 11.59 on Thursday, but Police will be actively making sure that workers do not jump the gun and try to sneak in early to get the places ready for the expected hordes at 11.59 p.m.
As if it will make one iota of difference.
Just plain ar$eholes the lot of them.
Mick

mullokintyre · 20 October 2021

Some weeks back I posted about the gouging of Big Pharma
A pice on ABC News highlights just how greedy they are.

COVID-19 vaccine manufacturer Pfizer has been accused of hiding behind a veil of secrecy to profiteer during the "worst public health crisis" in over 100 years.

The company is able to change its vaccine delivery schedule (without penalty)

Brazil can't accept COVID vaccine donations from other nations, without Pfizer's consent

Pfizer raised the annual sales forecast for its COVID-19 vaccines to $US33.5b (up 29 per cent)

That was the key criticism made by Public Citizen, a consumer rights group, which published a report containing leaked Pfizer contracts with the United States, United Kingdom, European Commission, Albania, Brazil, Colombia, Chile, Dominican Republic and Peru.

In some of the contracts (some of which were in draft or final form), Pfizer had the power to block countries from donating their COVID-19 vaccines to other countries, unilaterally change delivery schedules if there was a shortage, and demand that public assets be used as collateral.

If there was a dispute, it would be not be decided by a court (a public forum), according to some of the contracts. Instead, they stated, any disagreements would be resolved through private arbitration under New York law.
The contracts offer a rare glimpse into the power one pharmaceutical corporation has gained to silence governments, throttle supply, shift risk and maximise profits in the worst public health crisis in a century," Zain Rizvi, the author of the report, said.
"Pfizer’s demands have generated outrage around the world, slowing purchase agreements and even pushing back the delivery schedule of vaccines."
Some countries signed contracts, waiving "immunity against [Pfizer's] precautionary seizure of any of [their] assets", including Brazil, Chile, Colombia and the Dominican Republic.

The Brazilian government was prohibited from making "any public announcement concerning the existence, subject matter or terms of [the] agreement" or commenting about its relationship with Pfizer, unless it had the company's prior written consent.

Like I said, never get between a big pharma manufacturer and a bucket of money.
Mick

moXJO · 20 October 2021

So saw an article about booster shots being need in Australia soon.
Not sure if I'll be going for that.

Value Collector · 20 October 2021

mullokintyre said:
Some weeks back I posted about the gouging of Big Pharma
A pice on ABC News highlights just how greedy they are.

Like I said, never get between a big pharma manufacturer and a bucket of money.
Mick

The Astra Zeneca was being sold for $4 a piece, at cost. Unfortunately the government did a hatchet job on it and turned people towards the Pfizer which costs $40.

mullokintyre · 21 October 2021

Value Collector said:
The Astra Zeneca was being sold for $4 a piece, at cost. Unfortunately the government did a hatchet job on it and turned people towards the Pfizer which costs $40.

I am assuming you are referring to the federal government here.
Not sure I would blame the government for the hatchet job on AZ.
It was ATAGI that put the limitations on who could use AZ, all of which they eventually took away.
MSM also contributed heavily.
Australia's most trusted Doctor, Norman Swan, said early in the piece, that in normal times, the AZ vaccine would be banned in Australia.
He even admitted that he may have been partially responsible for AZ hesitancy.
And who could forget the CHO from Queensland saying she would not permit under 18 year olds to die because of the AZ.
And none of the above takes away from the original article I quoted about Pfizer screwing all and sundry.
Mick

mullokintyre · 21 October 2021

Its taken a while, but thanks to a the second highest daily total of 2235 cases versus 374 new cases in NSW, at 72.560 cases, Victoria now has the dubious honour of having the highest number of COVID cases of all the states. at 1.09 cases per 100 people, its higher than NSW at 0.89.
So what exactly did all those 262 days of lockdown achieve??
Mick

wayneL · 21 October 2021

mullokintyre said:
Its taken a while, but thanks to a the second highest daily total of 2235 cases versus 374 new cases in NSW, at 72.560 cases, Victoria now has the dubious honour of having the highest number of COVID cases of all the states. at 1.09 cases per 100 people, its higher than NSW at 0.89.
So what exactly did all those 262 days of lockdown achieve??
Mick

it is achieving precisely what all the empirical evidence seems to be saying it would.

It might be counterintuitive on the face of it, but lockdowns don't work in the long run.

mullokintyre · 21 October 2021

I noticed something a bit surprising in the Covid data that is released.
If we cast our minds back to the week just before the AFL grand final, Victorians were all warned not to go to a mates place for BBQ's etc, we were still in lockdown.
Well, on the following Thursday , September 30th, we had 500 increase in cases , so the AFL GF was blamed.
But the the next Thursday , September 7th, there was a jump in cases of 220.
Then on Thursday 14th there was a 700 jump in cases.
Today, Thursday 21st, a 400 jump in cases.
Can anyone else see a pattern here??
It seems that for every weekend since the grand final weekend, Victorians have been basically saying stuff the rules, we are going out.
Mick

wayneL · 21 October 2021

What in the name of Hades did I just hear Annastacia Palaszczuk say?

cynic · 21 October 2021

It sounded (to me at least), like she's telling everybody, who hasn't already done so, to go and get FTSEed.

basilio · 21 October 2021

Victoria is steadily coming out of lockdown as vaccination rates reach 70% plus. The question remains what will happen to the people who refuse to be vaccinated or believe COVID is a hoax or no big deal ?

The AMA President has expressed the view that anti vaxxers or COVID deniers should stand by their principles and let nature take it's course.

I wonder how this will go down ?

Victoria AMA says Covid-deniers and anti-vaxxers should opt out of public health system and ‘let nature run its course’

Hospital system is already under pressure and will get worse as restrictions lift, state AMA president says

“Covid-deniers” and “anti-vaxxers” should opt out of care in the public health system if they catch the virus as Victoria reopens, says the Victorian branch of the Australian Medical Association.

The AMA Victoria president, Dr Roderick McRae, said those who do not believe Covid-19 is real or a threat should update their advanced care directives and inform their relatives that they do not wish to receive care in the public health system if diagnosed with the virus.

...“We’re all juggling everything the best we can to avoid and prevent deaths. We know as we reopen it’s the unvaccinated who are going to get Covid, and they are going to get great hospital treatment with many new experimental drugs, even though they think the vaccine is ‘experimental’.

“A whole lot of these people are passionate disbelievers that the virus even exists. And they should notify their nearest and dearest and ensure there’s an advanced care directive that says, ‘If I am diagnosed with this disease caused by a virus that I don’t believe exists, I will not disturb the public hospital system, and I’ll let nature run its course’.”

Victoria AMA says Covid-deniers and anti-vaxxers should opt out of public health system and ‘let nature run its course’

Hospital system is already under pressure and will get worse as restrictions lift, state AMA president says

www.theguardian.com

Belli · 22 October 2021

mullokintyre said:
It was ATAGI that put the limitations on who could use AZ, all of which they eventually took away.

Many dump on ATAGI's advice of 8 April but few read it and the nuance was not well promulgated by some in authority. Not the job of ATAGI to get up on stage to discuss the pros and cons of AstraZeneca or other vaccines. That's the task of the talking heads and a number didn't do a good job of it.

"COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca can be used in adults aged under 50 years where the benefits are likely to outweigh the risks for that individual and the person has made an informed decision based on an understanding of the risks and benefits."

The advice was also given in the context:

The AstraZeneca vaccine is highly effective at reducing the risk of death or severe disease from COVID-19 across all adult age groups. At the present time, the AstraZeneca vaccine is the only vaccine option for reducing this risk for many Australians, since the global availability of alternative vaccines is highly constrained.
ATAGI recognises this safety concern will likely impact on confidence in being vaccinated with AstraZeneca vaccine in all age groups.
Until the Government can increase supply of COVID-19 vaccines other than AstraZeneca, overall coverage under Australia's COVID-19 vaccine program will likely be reduced. This will likely impact the time frame to which the Australian population is protected against COVID-19.

ATAGI statement on AstraZeneca vaccine in response to new vaccine safety concerns

A statement from the Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) on the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine in response to new vaccine safety concerns.

www.health.gov.au

mullokintyre · 22 October 2021

basilio said:
Victoria is steadily coming out of lockdown as vaccination rates reach 70% plus. The question remains what will happen to the people who refuse to be vaccinated or believe COVID is a hoax or no big deal ?

The AMA President has expressed the view that anti vaxxers or COVID deniers should stand by their principles and let nature take it's course.

I wonder how this will go down ?

Victoria AMA says Covid-deniers and anti-vaxxers should opt out of public health system and ‘let nature run its course’
Hospital system is already under pressure and will get worse as restrictions lift, state AMA president says

“Covid-deniers” and “anti-vaxxers” should opt out of care in the public health system if they catch the virus as Victoria reopens, says the Victorian branch of the Australian Medical Association.

The AMA Victoria president, Dr Roderick McRae, said those who do not believe Covid-19 is real or a threat should update their advanced care directives and inform their relatives that they do not wish to receive care in the public health system if diagnosed with the virus.

...“We’re all juggling everything the best we can to avoid and prevent deaths. We know as we reopen it’s the unvaccinated who are going to get Covid, and they are going to get great hospital treatment with many new experimental drugs, even though they think the vaccine is ‘experimental’.

“A whole lot of these people are passionate disbelievers that the virus even exists. And they should notify their nearest and dearest and ensure there’s an advanced care directive that says, ‘If I am diagnosed with this disease caused by a virus that I don’t believe exists, I will not disturb the public hospital system, and I’ll let nature run its course’.”

Victoria AMA says Covid-deniers and anti-vaxxers should opt out of public health system and ‘let nature run its course’

Hospital system is already under pressure and will get worse as restrictions lift, state AMA president says

www.theguardian.com

Well, I would be happy with that, provided the AMA agrees to let everything else run its course.In the 18 months or so of the pandemic, we have had 1611 deaths.
Does the AMA recommend that people who smoke should opt out of the public health system? According to quit, 21,000 people died fom smoking in 2015 (the last year for which they have statistics). Thats a lot more than who have died from COVID.
Does the AMA recommend that people who are brainless enough to take any of the myriad of "recreational Drugs". should opt out of public health system? In 2019, according to the AIHW government website, there were 1865 drug induced deaths, a good chunk more than the deaths from Covid.
Does the AMA recommend that people who consume excessive amounts of alcohol should also op out of the health syste? Not even going to bother looking up those figures.
And what about the people who are obese?
No one forces people to smoke, take illicit drugs, drink alcohol , eat high carb high fat high sugar diets.
People should be free to make choices in life.
I don't have a problem with that, as long as people are prepared to take the consequences.
All of the above groups mentioned make choices. Most of them stupid.
If society is to force people to opt out of the health system because of their stupidity, it needs to be applied on a consistent basis.
Would certainly free up a lot of health resources, and would also make the shares in funeral directors soar.
Mick

wayneL · 22 October 2021

mullokintyre said:
Well, I would be happy with that, provided the AMA agrees to let everything else run its course.In the 18 months or so of the pandemic, we have had 1611 deaths.
Does the AMA recommend that people who smoke should opt out of the public health system? According to quit, 21,000 people died fom smoking in 2015 (the last year for which they have statistics). Thats a lot more than who have died from COVID.
Does the AMA recommend that people who are brainless enough to take any of the myriad of "recreational Drugs". should opt out of public health system? In 2019, according to the AIHW government website, there were 1865 drug induced deaths, a good chunk more than the deaths from Covid.
Does the AMA recommend that people who consume excessive amounts of alcohol should also op out of the health syste? Not even going to bother looking up those figures.
And what about the people who are obese?
No one forces people to smoke, take illicit drugs, drink alcohol , eat high carb high fat high sugar diets.
People should be free to make choices in life.
I don't have a problem with that, as long as people are prepared to take the consequences.
All of the above groups mentioned make choices. Most of them stupid.
If society is to force people to opt out of the health system because of their stupidity, it needs to be applied on a consistent basis.
Would certainly free up a lot of health resources, and would also make the shares in funeral directors soar.
Mick

This highlights the absolute stunning stupidity of the current debate, and that statement from the AMA is one of the most asinine, moronic (tautology intentional) and evil things I've heard in this whole discussion. The only deaths being considered are covid deaths... One should look up death from medical misadventure if you want a shock.

I can't believe how utterly ridiculous this whole thing is!

mullokintyre · 22 October 2021

wayneL said:
The only deaths being considered are covid deaths.. One should look up death from medical misadventure if you want a shock.

I was going to include the medical misadventure stats, but there is very little avenue of choice in those activities, unlike all the others.
Mick

basilio · 22 October 2021

mullokintyre said:
Well, I would be happy with that, provided the AMA agrees to let everything else run its course.In the 18 months or so of the pandemic, we have had 1611 deaths.
Does the AMA recommend that people who smoke should opt out of the public health system? According to quit, 21,000 people died fom smoking in 2015 (the last year for which they have statistics). Thats a lot more than who have died from COVID.
Does the AMA recommend that people who are brainless enough to take any of the myriad of "recreational Drugs". should opt out of public health system? In 2019, according to the AIHW government website, there were 1865 drug induced deaths, a good chunk more than the deaths from Covid.
Does the AMA recommend that people who consume excessive amounts of alcohol should also op out of the health syste? Not even going to bother looking up those figures.
And what about the people who are obese?
No one forces people to smoke, take illicit drugs, drink alcohol , eat high carb high fat high sugar diets.
People should be free to make choices in life.
I don't have a problem with that, as long as people are prepared to take the consequences.
All of the above groups mentioned make choices. Most of them stupid.
If society is to force people to opt out of the health system because of their stupidity, it needs to be applied on a consistent basis.
Would certainly free up a lot of health resources, and would also make the shares in funeral directors soar.
Mick

That is a very interesting perspective and well worth debating. I can see some similarities but also some striking differences.

Firstly COVID is a contagious disease where one persons behaviour directly affects others if they ignore isolation instructions. There are already health laws in place to deal with people who refuse to quarantine when required .
But secondly we now have a vaccine that is proven to largely shield people from the worst effects of the disease. Deciding not to take this very simple step to protect oneself is not doing any favours to themself, their family and the community at large.

The other examples you give are very striking. You say these are excesses are all voluntary . Perhaps. No one is actually "forcing" people to smoke, over eat, over drink, eat take away rubbish until their livers and pancreas collapse.

But in reality our whole economic system has become dependent on relentlessly promoting and persuading people to go to excess on these and many other industries. So where do we go ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't seriously believe the hospital system will consider letting "nature take it's course" with anti vaxxers or COVID deniers. In fact the probable challenge for treatment in a stretched hospital environment which is madly triaging COVID sick people will be along the following lines.

In one bed we have a 45 year old mother with two children, not vaccinated because she doesn't believe in it, very sick with COVID.
In the other bed a 75 year old fully vaccinated person also very sick with COVID .

We only have one ventilator left. Who gets it ?

moXJO · 22 October 2021

basilio said:
Victoria is steadily coming out of lockdown as vaccination rates reach 70% plus. The question remains what will happen to the people who refuse to be vaccinated or believe COVID is a hoax or no big deal ?

The AMA President has expressed the view that anti vaxxers or COVID deniers should stand by their principles and let nature take it's course.

I wonder how this will go down ?

Victoria AMA says Covid-deniers and anti-vaxxers should opt out of public health system and ‘let nature run its course’
Hospital system is already under pressure and will get worse as restrictions lift, state AMA president says

“Covid-deniers” and “anti-vaxxers” should opt out of care in the public health system if they catch the virus as Victoria reopens, says the Victorian branch of the Australian Medical Association.

The AMA Victoria president, Dr Roderick McRae, said those who do not believe Covid-19 is real or a threat should update their advanced care directives and inform their relatives that they do not wish to receive care in the public health system if diagnosed with the virus.

...“We’re all juggling everything the best we can to avoid and prevent deaths. We know as we reopen it’s the unvaccinated who are going to get Covid, and they are going to get great hospital treatment with many new experimental drugs, even though they think the vaccine is ‘experimental’.

“A whole lot of these people are passionate disbelievers that the virus even exists. And they should notify their nearest and dearest and ensure there’s an advanced care directive that says, ‘If I am diagnosed with this disease caused by a virus that I don’t believe exists, I will not disturb the public hospital system, and I’ll let nature run its course’.”

Victoria AMA says Covid-deniers and anti-vaxxers should opt out of public health system and ‘let nature run its course’

Hospital system is already under pressure and will get worse as restrictions lift, state AMA president says

www.theguardian.com

can they stop paying the Medicare levy and associated taxes?

wabullfrog · 22 October 2021

Quick look at Europe as it heads towards another winter.

Based on a 7 day average 48 of every 100 Covid cases worldwide are in Europe.

Coronavirus in Europe: the latest counts, charts and maps

Tracking the COVID-19 outbreak, updated daily

graphics.reuters.com

If you look at the link above it shows that currently it's mainly Eastern Europe that seems to be at higher levels.

Quite a few Countries in that region are at much lower vaccination levels than the rest of Europe eg Ukraine 19%, Romania 35% & Russia 36% first dose levels.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations

Explore data on COVID-19 vaccinations across the world.

ourworldindata.org

Those 3 Countries were also 3rd, 5th & 2nd in the World for new deaths.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#main_table

CFR not good for a lot of those Countries as well

Russia reintroducing restrictions

Russia bringing back COVID shutdown amid record daily deaths

While vaccines are readily available, uptake has remained stubbornly low amid widespread mistrust. Now the Kremlin is ordering all businesses to close in a bid to gain control.

money.yahoo.com

Ukraine doing the same

Queues for COVID vaccines in Ukraine as cases, deaths hit record

People in Ukraine's capital Kyiv queued in their hundreds for COVID-19 vaccinations on Thursday after a surge in daily cases and related deaths past previous highs led authorities to tighten pandemic restrictions.

www.reuters.com

Will be interesting to watch how it unfolds in Europe with the large diversity of vaccination levels across the region.

macca · 22 October 2021

And right now in the UK there are 52000 new cases Today with 912 people dying in the last week, giving a death rate of 1.2 per 100k

It is exceedingly obvious that a vaccine that does Not kill the virus is no bloody good, we need an early treatment protocol as well.

FFS when are the so called experts going to pull their heads out of their A**** and admit they were conned

Belli · 22 October 2021

macca said:
It is exceedingly obvious that a vaccine that does Not kill the virus is no bloody good,

An ignorant statement there.

A vaccine does not kill a virus which is in nature. A vaccine prevents us from becoming unwell by infection of the virus.

Now, despite this gentleman being 80 years of age, I will challenge you to go up against him to argue your proposition. I'd be very confident to 100% if I had a bet of $1,000 on the outcome of the debate, I'd collect.

Setting it Straight video edition: What we know about the virus

Your default description here

www.doherty.edu.au

Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion

Will the "Corona Virus" turn into a worldwide epidemic or fizzle out?

Yes

No

Bigger than SARS, but not worldwide epidemic (Black Death/bubonic plague)

Undecided

menace to society

Have courage, and be kind.

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

Victoria AMA says Covid-deniers and anti-vaxxers should opt out of public health system and ‘let nature run its course’​

Victoria AMA says Covid-deniers and anti-vaxxers should opt out of public health system and ‘let nature run its course’​

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

menace to society

Victoria AMA says Covid-deniers and anti-vaxxers should opt out of public health system and ‘let nature run its course’​

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