Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Commodities tipped to collapse

I think this is the lull , I thought they usually lasted for 6-8mths in base metal secular bull markets .

Most projects have been costed , for developers , it's usually at a fixed contract price , variations always get sent to architects on projects , these are add on costs , that either get approved or don't .
Sometimes ( quite often actually ) , the overlaps and under quoting catch up , especially if the developers have to wear any variations .

Mix that with a squeeze on credit , which has been underway since JUNE , it see orders slow down and dribble as inventories are run at lower levels .

That's why there's been a squeeze on steel , because it's expensive stuff and for every tonne produced , around 100 tonnes of water are needed , that's a lot of steam , fortunately they get to reuse a good part of it .

The main market gearing has been toward the Chinese Dam project and infrastructure , with portions leaning to the Olympic games . The US markets may have been heading upwards , but the markets weren't getting reliable data and has been in a technical recession , most of which is product of monetary policy and its effects . That has a domino effect , which will have to be sorted out by the market forces .

There are upsides though , because China and India aren't the only news , there are many large scale projects underway globally . The Korean Pen. will be starting a new channel system , that will take enormous amounts of materials and has come out of left field to much of the market . The figures wouldn't have been done yet on most global projects , until an analyst notices in a companies book .

Then there's the hedge funds , the dobermans of the market , they'll jump between investment vehicles and distort all manor of commodities once they start pressing buttons . A lot of unwinding in many prices is attributed to hedge fund liquidation and the way things look this could continue for a tad longer .

That's just part of the effect , any administrator coming in to square up books is an A grade position liquidator .

These are just a few things that slow base metal prices , look at nickel , it blew it's hat at $51K . Do I think we'll see that again ? Chit I hope so , that would be just groovy , but I'm not expecting any rush .

The rush looks to be coals , like Thermal again . How about wheat , that was a beauty rise , and that's how quickly focus can change .

Focus and commodity price don't have that much in common , it's more sentiment , but you can be guaranteed to notice it on shelf prices at supermarkets .

Don't get me wrong here , I'm not riding the miners off , although they tend to prey on each other at market peaks , which is usally at the cresendo and it looks like piano (slowly/er) to me at present . Zinc has actually seen demand pick up in China , but it is not reflected in the price . Could we just suppose it's trying to find a bottom ? As most ores have or will do .....

Zinifex and Oxiana are treasure troves , they've got war chests , BIG ones that make the old CPH look like a piggy bank . what they do with all that cash will be interesting , ZFX are on the prowl , a buyback would be nice though .
 
12/20/2007 4:09:15 AM - www.dowjones.com
CANBERRA (Dow Jones)--Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said Thursday that the country's federal, state and territory governments have agreed to a program of national reform that will boost productivity and reduce inefficiency.

Speaking after a historic meeting of the Council of Australian Governments, or COAG, in Melbourne Rudd said seven working groups will be established to manage the reforms.

But Rudd didn't spell out any specific policy action or areas of cooperation between the federal and state governments - something business groups had hoped for.

The meeting was the first of its kind since Australia's federation in 1901 in which all federal and state leaders were from the same party, center-left Labor.

Australia's economy, buoyed by strong demand for natural resources, has been expanding rapidly in recent years. But infrastructure bottlenecks are dogging producers, and a tight labor market is pushing up operating costs.

That increases the need for federal-state cooperation to address those issues, which are currently pressuring inflation and adding to the Reserve Bank of Australia's tightening bias.

The Australian Labor Party's landslide election win over the conservative Liberal-National coalition last month completed the center-left party's clean sweep of all federal, state and territory governments.

-By Rachel Pannett, Dow Jones Newswires; 61-2-6208-0901; rachel.pannett@dowjones.com

(END) Dow Jones Newswires

December 19, 2007 22:02 ET (03:02 GMT)
 
Pays a good dividend?

Its not much more than 1%, and market average is 3.9%, work that one out


I agree. I've held BHP a few times in the last few years but their dividend is simply pathetic.

Spend $40+ on BHP and the dividend is 33.63 CPS
Spend $5 on AFG and the dividend is 24 CPS

Can anyone explain their lousy dividend? Are there simply too many shares?
 
I agree. I've held BHP a few times in the last few years but their dividend is simply pathetic.

Spend $40+ on BHP and the dividend is 33.63 CPS
Spend $5 on AFG and the dividend is 24 CPS

Can anyone explain their lousy dividend? Are there simply too many shares?

They are not a dividend stock but a growth stock.

They probably are only paying a dividend as they are so cashed up now.

For them the "proof is in the pudding" in their share price.

Look at their ROE and ROC, it's massive, going from memory

If you want a dividend stock, you wouldn't be buying the big miners.
 
They are not a dividend stock but a growth stock.

They probably are only paying a dividend as they are so cashed up now.

For them the "proof is in the pudding" in their share price.

Look at their ROE and ROC, it's massive, going from memory

If you want a dividend stock, you wouldn't be buying the big miners.
Isn't the real question one as to why BHP has not been "sold off" heavily in the present bearish market?
My suspicion is in part it is because BHP has a massive cash flow and, like any cashed-up company at the moment, has the capacity to pick the eyes out of the market.
What is certainly very clear is that companies with large debt components are going to find the cost of borrowings burning a bigger hole in the balance sheet than ever thought.
Companies exposed to borrowings from lenders caught with their hands on too many SIVs will be at greater risk still.
The next 6 months is where the strong get bigger, and the weak fold their hands.
Mind you, if your stable has equities with a good resource base, then don't blink too fast.
There could be an offer too good to refuse, coming soon.........
 
Traditionally, metal minerals demand pick up after Chinese New Year. With copper inventory at Shanghai at very low level now, I'll not be surprised to see a much higher demand for copper from China on the 1st quarter of 2008.

I'll be holding BHP Billiton, but I'll not be interested to buy more at currrent levels. Southern Copper (listed in NYSE) is giving dividend yield of 7%, this might interest dividend players.
 
guys did copper and aluminium just fall 35% on the london metal exchange..please check www.kitcometals.com....
****TTT, get out of resources...
Kitco does not quote LME ring prices.
Don't panic.
Buy aluminium at Kitco's quoted prices and you will make a killing.
The forward cost curve for aluminium is rising, not declining, because energy costs will keep driving it higher.
 
on the basis that price is determined by supply and demand a check of LME prices and availability (LME stock) I roughed out this from historical (last 5 years) and have put a weighting on each of current price and current stock.
Now this is only very rudimentary (took 30mins to do) and does not factor in demand looking forward but nevertheless gives a rough comparison for buying stocks forward from here.
note: a price of +30% indicates that current price relative to last 5yr hi and 5yr low is up 30% above the 5yr low, so, out of possible weighting of 10 I have scored it the inverse - ie 7
and for available stock in LME +70% similarly means that current stocks relative to last 5yr hi and 5yr low is up 70%, so, out of possible weighting of 10 I have scored it the inverse - ie 3
here are the numbers
PRICE
Zn +30% (7); Ni +100% (0); Pb +60% (4); Cu +70% (3): Al +70% (3)

INVENTORY
Zn +10% (9); Ni +40% (6); Pb +20% (8); Cu +20% (8): Al +50% (5)

then add the two weightings (the numbers in brackets):
Zinc (16); Nickel (6); Lead (12); Copper (11): Aluminium (8)

the highest score being the most of interest in 2008

of course if we can add projected demand as the third weighting it would be more complete
 
Buttttttttt..........
a check into zinc forecasts turns up:

"Chennai, Dec. 30 Global zinc prices are forecast to drop by 45 per cent next year and average around $1,780 a tonne. The projection, made by Australia’s independent government economic research agency Abare, has been made on the expectations that new supply will come on line and stocks will recover as production exceeds consumption."

"Zinc price, which had run to a record $4,260 a tonne earlier this year, was quoted at $2,440 during the weekend."

full article: http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2007/12/31/stories/2007123150670700.htm
 
Guess the run is not over for commodities just yet. Port Hedland will be building 21 new births over the next 5-6 years and China expecting to double its iron ore requirements. Obviously it's just starting to rev up here in the Pilbara.
 
The forward cost curve for aluminium is rising, not declining, because energy costs will keep driving it higher.

Aluminium:

1. Mine the bauxite.
2. Add massive amounts of heat. Now you've got alumina.
3. Add most of the output of a decent sized power station plus a bit of pet coke. Now you've got aluminium.

OK, it's a tad more complicated than that. But if you're running a smelter then it's the electricity price that matters more than any other factor in determining viability. In most cases the bauxite gets shipped to a cheap source of fuel. Then the alumina is shipped to a cheap source of electricity. That often means different contries and not simply across town. :2twocents
 
Amid a see of red the base metals (and precious metals) rose overnight.
Meanwhile oil is refusing to cave in and suggests the fundamentals of supply and demand are holding the price up.
It will be impossible for commodities to remain unaffected as the global recession bites. However, the Kitco charts clearly show that despite much-anticipated metal stock builds in 2007, most metals are still in short supply.
When this financial crisis has worked-off most of the global woes, the next run in metal prices will make last year's bull run pale into insignificance.
 
from the HK Standard...

Jiangxi Copper pulls 300,000 tonnes offline

Friday, February 01, 2008

China's top integrated copper producer, Jiangxi Copper (0358), will shut down 300,000 tonnes of smelting capacity within two to three days due to power shortages, company sources said yesterday, as the country grapples with its worst power crisis in years.

That capacity is 43 percent of Jiangxi Copper's total smelting capacity of 700,000 tonnes a year. A fall in Chinese copper production could raise imports, as China is the world's top consumer of the metal.
"We are going to close down nearly a half of the capacity in a couple of days," a company source said. He said Jiangxi Copper expected capacity to remain shut until mid- February, which could see lost output of about 12,500 tonnes, or 2.3 percent of the company's expected output of 550,000 tonnes last year.
The news comes after China's biggest zinc plant shut down on Tuesday, while stainless steel and aluminum output curbs spread to Shanxi as power shortages and chaotic weather cut deeper into supply from the world's top producer of the metals
 
It's interesting to look at all commodities and have a look at which are going to be affected by a recession and which are not.
Oil is a basic and at the same time will be hit if the U.S.A. moves towards a zero growth situation, and steel is another that will waver as the Chinese growth situation falls back. China has forecast growth down from 11.5% in 2007 to around 8.5% for 2008 with pressure in the second half.
All commodites that are eaten by us and animals, and are listed for use as green fuel, look likely to either push to much higher levels or be vulnerable to push and pull factors, sugar is one of these.
Coal and to a slightly lesser extent, iron ore, will be set to remain in demand because of China, India and Indonesia's need to build thermal coal powered powerstations. Coking coal and higher grade PCI and semi-soft is used in steel making and will be stronger in price due to rail and port restrictions, that also affect thermal coal.
Anthracite and high grade PCI coal is one for the future as the 20 cent tariff is likely to stay, on all coal from Australia, and the Vietnamese interest appears genuine and the market set to grow and grow.
Copper may well find the going neutral to weaker as 2008 goes on and it would take quite a bit of research to see likely trends in 2008 and 2009 for other non-ferrous metals.
 
I finally found the statistic that I used against the Dukester in an argument about a year ago, in the course of my personal ventures.

Of course he grilled me at the time for not having it, but it is true.

People in urban areas use around 50% more resources, of all types, than do their counterparts in rural areas.

Currently there are just over 3 billion people urbanised. It looks as if there will be about 5 billion people urbanised by 2030.

So if we do some figures, 3 x 1, + 2 x 0.5 we get 4. A 33% increase in resource consumption by 2030 from this alone.

This does not include the engineering included for these people, nor does it include the re-engineering that developed nation's cities will need due to environmental factors.

In times like this, it's easy to get bearish on a lot of commodities etc. but it is quite easy to see why so many people are so bullish long term.

For example, here are a few recent pictures of Shanghai (just to get some perspective):

Shanghaipointy2.jpg

shanghai1pointy.jpg

And now look at what the plans are for Shanghai by 2020:

shanghai2020best.jpg

shanhai2020.jpg

shanghaiperson.jpg

And yes that is a person in there. There are people at the end too. The scale and magnitude is staggering. Incomprehensible. The big pointy thing in the first image is absolutely dwarfed, and you can see that the density to the left of that will be 5 or 6 times as high, at least, in the plans.

If these visions do come to pass, there is just no way commodities could really collapse. Barring Chinese price interference.

I just found these pictures absolutely mind boggling, and thought I would pass them on. I hope you can take something away from them.

Cheers,
Chops.
 
agree chops
would add - LT resources will continue to boom based on world population growth alone - your high city factor is more weight which I was ignorant of.
Temper your enthusiasm for growth in resources only if you think the world can get warming under control because doing that will severly dent many an economy.
 
Plans are exactly that though: just plans. Execution of those plans is dependant on the economy, and a deep recession or depression could easily stifle those plans for years.

GP

Hence I said what I said, i.e. that if it does come...
 
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