Colorado, gun control and the 2nd Amendment

[prawn_86]

.how will your gunlaws stop this occuring? answer? they wont! they never have and never will as bottom line is CRIMINALS DONT OBEY LAWS! DUH! gunlaws actually make a criminal/psycho's job easier as they dont have to worry about armed resistance from their victims being armed! i expect a naive emotive response from the do-gooders on this point but ive heard it all before and know it for the BS it is.

the real danger is the person who has the disire to carry out such a sick and twisted act, not the method they use to accomplish their sadistic ambitions.

And that's the whole point.
Anyone who has the psychopathology to carefully plan an event like this will have no problem in acquiring the means to carry it through, regardless of any laws.

Yes someone who really wants to would be able to get their hands on guns, but it would be a hell of a lot more difficult, and many crazies would probably move onto something else. Hardened criminals still would of course, but they dont tend to slaughter civilians randomly.

I'm sure there are just as many crazy/insane/psychopathic murders per capita in most Western countries, yet how come there are very few massacres in Australia, NZ, UK, Europe etc?

It's a fact that there are way more gun related deaths per capita in America than other Western countries. Limiting access to guns would limit this, just as it has done in Australia.

 

[bandicoot76]

And that's the whole point.
Anyone who has the psychopathology to carefully plan an event like this will have no problem in acquiring the means to carry it through, regardless of any laws.

thats the point i was trying to get across julia, making laws doesnt erase the existence of guns, nor the capacity for unstable nutjobs to use them for evil.

 

[prawn_86]

thats the point i was trying to get across julia, making laws doesnt erase the existence of guns, nor the capacity for unstable nutjobs to use them for evil.

Yes but it does make it a lot harder for them to obtain them in order to use them for evil

 

[prawn_86]

*puts mod hat on*

This is obviously a very emotive discussion, so can we please stick to facts and analysis and refrain from implications and slander of other members?

Thanks

 

[Joules MM1]

Yes but it does make it a lot harder for them to obtain them in order to use them for evil

+1

that's the key

less guns there are less people shooting, less people being shot, less deaths......is that so hard to get?

a reduction of the propensity by restriction of the facility.......

 

[bandicoot76]

Yes someone who really wants to would be able to get their hands on guns, but it would be a hell of a lot more difficult, and many crazies would probably move onto something else. .

a few years ago a psycho (in central america somewhere if i recall right) locked the doors to a packed cinema and rolled a 44gallon drumm of fuel to the entrance and set fire to it... killing multiple people... so yes nutjobs do move on to something else... still evil murdering bastards killing people... it just doesnt get reported as a massacre because it doesnt involve a firearm.

psychopathic behavior is psychopathic behavior no matter the tool used to instigate it. target the person responsible for the atrocity rather than the method they use and just maybe the world would be a safer place...

 

[bandicoot76]

+1

that's the key

less guns there are less people shooting, less people being shot, less deaths......is that so hard to get?

a reduction of the propensity by restriction of the facility.......

its too late for that, the guns are already IN the community, the only ones that laws affect are legal ones.

the horse has already bolted, shutting the stable doors isnt going to solve anything, shuttin down the nutjobs so they cant access guns (or any other weapon) is the only way to TRY to prevent these tragedies.

 

[Joules MM1]

a few years ago a psycho (in central america somewhere if i recall right) locked the doors to a packed cinema and rolled a 44gallon drumm of fuel to the entrance and set fire to it... killing multiple people... so yes nutjobs do move on to something else... still evil murdering bastards killing people... it just doesnt get reported as a massacre because it doesnt involve a firearm.

psychopathic behavior is psychopathic behavior no matter the tool used to instigate it. target the person responsible for the atrocity rather than the method they use and just maybe the world would be a safer place...

there's a good thought process going in your post......think on this:

1). the speed that is required to spot someone who's suffering a mental disposition toward mutilation or death of others (whatever the justification)

2). the speed of passing and enacting laws that completely ban guns (excepting farmers)

3. the speed of a bullet that kills

put into order which is the fastest and which is the most expedient at irradicating death by gun fire

think about it.......stop defending that which allows continuity of an insane idea (guns in private hands) and promote ideas that tackle something that does not benefit anyone.......guns dont take us forward, they are unproductive, they dont generate new ideas, they only promote more fear, more destruction......

 

[Glen48]

Forget about discovering the Universe, does God exist, Big Bang or any thing else the human minds is greatest mystery we need to explore, why violence is pasted down the family tree and why emotions are heredity, why serial killer can kill with out feelings and remorse and why jailing or execution won't stop the life style of murders.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes but it does make it a lot harder for them to obtain them in order to use them for evil

Hmmm, so like how drug laws make it really difficult for anyone to obtain drugs?

 

[AlterEgo]

the port arthur ar15 was handed into the victorian police in a gun amnesty some years before it ended in martin bryants hands

and I seem to recall that Martin Bryant was already known to police before the Port Arthur incident - they already knew he had a mental disorder, and that he had illegal firearms, yet they did nothing about it. His firearms were already illegal under the current laws at the time. If you're not going to enforce the current laws, then how is creating more laws going to help? Creating new laws is just the easy way that polititions can make it appear as if they have actually done something. Finding and addressing the real cause is just too difficult for them.

 

[bandicoot76]

there's a good thought process going in your post......think on this:

1). the speed that is required to spot someone who's suffering a mental disposition toward mutilation or death of others (whatever the justification)

2). the speed of passing and enacting laws that completely ban guns (excepting farmers)

3. the speed of a bullet that kills

put into order which is the fastest and which is the most expedient at irradicating death by gun fire

think about it.......stop defending that which allows continuity of an insane idea (guns in private hands) and promote ideas that tackle something that does not benefit anyone.......guns dont take us forward, they are unproductive, they dont generate new ideas, they only promote more fear, more destruction......

i use my .22 rifle to hunt rabbits, these rabbits are consumed either by me or by me dogs... is that any worse than buying meat from the butcher or a tin of dog-food?... if you say yes then your a hypocrite!

if, in your opinion, my hunting makes me a fear propagating, mass destructive monster then nothing i am going to say will change your opinion, and to tell the truth i dont really care, it only illustrates that you have been brainwashed into cynically stereotyping a large portion of the community (1000000+ liscenced,law abiding firearm owners in australia) as terrible potential psychopathic criminals...

yes i live in the bush ,yes i love the outdoors and detest the city lifestyle... each to their own, i dont judge you badly for NOT participating in my sporting choice ,

yes i like to participate in the shooting sports... both target and hunting, and i also enjoy archery too so i suppose it will be next on your agenda once all the big bad guns are all banned

yes i am liscenced and my firearm is registered and safely locked in an aproved gunsafe,and has been routinely inspected by the police as per THE LAW!

yes i care for my fellow man & am a volunteer in both the RFS, rescue squad and local red cross charity,

do massacres horrify me? yes definately! as i know first hand the potential results of injuries produced by a firearm...

do i feel any responsibility for those massacres? NOT ONE BIT! NEITHER I, NOR MY FIREARM were in any way involved!. the only thing responsible was the sick psycho bastard who deliberately planned the atrocity and who pulled the trigger on a fellow human being... something NO sane person could do! end of story!

as i said before to try to label all gun owners in the same catagory as psycho killers is both dishonest and insulting :frown:

 

[bandicoot76]

and I seem to recall that Martin Bryant was already known to police before the Port Arthur incident - they already knew he had a mental disorder, and that he had illegal firearms, yet they did nothing about it. His firearms were already illegal under the current laws at the time. If you're not going to enforce the current laws, then how is creating more laws going to help? Creating new laws is just the easy way that polititions can make it appear as if they have actually done something. Finding and addressing the real cause is just too difficult for them.

+1!

 

[AlterEgo]

i also enjoy archery too so i suppose it will be next on your agenda once all the big bad guns are all banned

Yes, and if it was a frenzied knife attack, would Joules be advocating new knife laws?

 

[Joules MM1]

Yes, and if it was a frenzied knife attack, would Joules be advocating new knife laws?

nice academia.......it was a group of innocent people killed by gun fire.......

milk, one sugar or two?

 

[Tink]

Well I am glad Australia has gun controls.
There is no reason for every household to have a gun.

I wouldnt like being pulled over by a policeman with a gun pointed at me, no thanks.

 

[MrBurns]

kinda missed the point there didnt you

No I think you did.

no matter what laws are in place the technology to make guns exists, the black-market to distribute guns exists, the demand for guns exist, so psychos/crims/nutjobs will ALWAYS have access to them.

Wrong, psychos won't access guns from the black market they wouldn't know how to.

your little rant against law abiding firearm owners changes that fact not one little bit! i am awake... to your usual BS on the subject driven by emotive reaction rather than rational thought.

You're lacking rational thought old chum, you want the right to have firearms despite that right being responsible for multiple deaths here and overseas. Well done John Howard, he has saved many lives by taking then out of the community.

i agree with you 100% that nutcases are a threat, however i totally disagree with you that new laws will somehow miraculously stop them accessing weapons to carry out their sick agendas.

Taking guns out of the community would stop thousand of deaths in the US but it is a very large somewhat fractured society and it will breed nut cases at time that will go to any lengths to do harm.

there are tens of millions of guns already in the global community, countries like belarus, china, iran etc are manufacturing mass produced cheap n nasty guns that continue to flood the world through blackmarkets worldwide, legally manufactured firearms are stolen from law abiding liscenced gun owners (by a corruption of the gun register system security apparently), military thefts and even guns stolen from police custody (the port arthur ar15 was handed into the victorian police in a gun amnesty some years before it ended in martin bryants hands) just add to the underground black market, to deny that anyone who wants a gun cant get one illegally just shows how naive you are...

Ha now there's a statement , they have guns in China so why dont we have open slather too ?
Nut cases in general won't bother or cant get guns so they'll use a knife or whatever, less death is the result.

and for you to try to somehow link law abiding firearm owners to these sicko nutjobs is both dishonest and insulting.

I was doing nothing of the sort, you can have a gun if you're in a club and have been checked out or live on a farm and have been checked out.
Your indignant defence of everyones right to arms in the face of countless deaths is both ignorant and offensive to the relatives of victims.

 

[Knobby22]

Pretty hard to argue for guns imo.

http://www.juancole.com/2011/01/over-9000-murders-by-gun-in-us-39-in-uk.html

Over 9,000 Murders by Gun in US; 39 in UKPosted on 01/14/2011 by Juan
Number of Murders, United States, 2009: 15,241

Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2009: 9,146

Number of Murders, Britain, 2008*: 648
(Since Britain’s population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,240 US murders)

Number of Murders by[pdf] firearms, Britain, 2008* 39
(equivalent to 195 US murders)

*The Home office reported murder statistics in the UK for the 12 months to March 2009, but these are 12-month figures).

For more on murder by firearms in Britain, see the BBC.

The international comparisons show conclusively that fewer gun owners per capita produce not only fewer murders by firearm, but fewer murders per capita over all. In the case of Britain, firearms murders are 48 times fewer than in the US.

Do hunters really need semi-automatic Glock hand guns? Is that how they roll in deer season?

 

[Knobby22]

One of the best things Howard did (and he says this himself) was bring in stricter gun laws.


Gun Deaths - International Comparisons
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident)

USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36
Italy (1997) 0.81 1.1 0.07
Switzerland (1998) 0.50 5.8 0.10
Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04
Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10
Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10
France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49
England/Wales (2002) 0.15 0.2 0.03
Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2 0.02
Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0

By the way, Switzerland has a gun policy very like the USA.

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

I had the opportunity to live and work in the USA and one of the main reasons I didn't take up the offer is that I or my family would be 16 times more likely to be shot dead.

 

[Glen48]

The more of these loonies out there the more people want to arm them selves so on it goes , then more accidental death, more guns available to be stolen.