Burma Cyclone Relief

[numbercruncher]

Aid plane landed in Burma... all supplies seized by the military when unloaded.. now enough food to feed thousands of people sits on the tarmac...

Shocking Behaviour ....

Burma junta seizes UN aid shipments which would have fed 95,000

News of the seizures comes amid growing fears that the death toll could even overtake Boxing Day Tsunami levels unless urgent action was taken to help those left homeless by Cyclone Nargis.

The warning, which comes as 17 Britons including expats and backpackers remained missing, said that as many 200,000 were already dead or dying.

But the figure could rise to half a million through disease and hunger if the nation’s hardline army rulers continued to block aid to the devastated Irrawaddy Delta.

That would dwarf the 230,000 deaths across South East Asia in the 2004 catastrophe.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/burmamyanmar/1941117/Myanmar-cyclone-Burma-junta-seizes-aid-shipments.html


Now someone will turn that around and say Evil Westerners feeding Burmese junta or something ?

 

[Superfly]

I can't really say exactly but I do know Burma gets a lot of crap from the west:

Killing people, Monks, anyone who disagree's with the military may have something to do with that...

-unfair sanctions (does the UN ever talk about Israel as a rogue state?)

Unfair !!! what happen after the last elections in Burma... one of many reasons...

-downright biased news coverage where the government is seen to do no right

Ok... I'm all ear's, please post what good deeds the regime has done for the common people of Burma... not just the top brass ... medical care for all ?... schools ?.. anything ? ... you have never been to Burma to post something this mindless..

This sort of stuff does not happen unless there is an interest in that country.

And who is the country with huge interests in Burma... thats right none other than China... another murderous regime...

You just need to look at all the puppet governments all over the world.

Puppet governments like Hong Kong, Tibet... shame about Taiwan though !!!

What do they get in return for funding rebel groups in other countries? It is the same thing as when they send in "humanitarian aid" to tell people how to run their own homeland.

Your refering to the US I assume... the same US that has 6 C130 transports ready to drop food close to Burmise cities and helicopters in NW Thailand and soon to be offshore Burma to drop more aid from the AIR, but air still being denied access...

I believe the people that go and help are doing out of the goodness of their hearts but the organisation itself involves a lot of foreign policy politics and PR (often to defame the other country). I am highly skeptical of any organisation that rides into a country on a white horse to tell them they are morally superior.

Spoken like a true product of the Chinese education system...

Why don't we see stories about how humanitarian aid not being able to help the thounsands dying in Iraq from the American occupation?

Ahh back to Iraq, so US Marines are just walking around shooting civies are they Juw ?...."sectarian violence" mean anything to you... the US Army is not the same as PLA ... Tiananmen square in 1989 !!!

But there are gorilla funds in Africa to protect gorillas from poaching by displacing native tribes.

How many poor people in Beijing have now been displaced and many are homeless because of the Olympics...

I am all for helping the Burmese. But I can understand why their government is acting this way towards foreigners.

You would being communist Chinese...

 

[doctorj]

II believe the people that go and help are doing out of the goodness of their hearts but the organisation itself involves a lot of foreign policy politics and PR (often to defame the other country). I am highly skeptical of any organisation that rides into a country on a white horse

As long as that 'white horse' comes laden with food, water purifiers and shelter who cares?

The point is that there was an immense natural disaster and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, are likely to be without shelter, clean drinking water and food.

Why not sort this out first and then start politiking.

What's worse is the very people who are making these decisions to prevent aid from getting in and getting to where its needed are more than likely not in need of anything more serious than their next mojito.

More importantly, why aren't China pulling Burma into line? Are they worried about losing their influence over a country that all but guarantees them limitless access to exploit the oil in the North? And if they are worried that the spread of Western medicines and food will reduce their influence - why aren't they using their military base(s) in Burma to supply the aid themselves?

I am all for helping the Burmese. But I can understand why their government is acting this way towards foreigners.

You can understand why a military dictatorship is forcing scores of people to suffer, if not die? Surely that brings 'cutting of your nose to spite your face' to a whole new level.

 

[Superfly]

100's of aid workers wanting visa's to Burma.... and the Burma embassy in Bangkok closed up today for a public holiday !!! will not be open till monday..

Not that the visa's would be issued anyway.... local TV here showing scenes from so called hospitals in Burma.... terrible injuries, no real medical treatment.... outside by rivers dead bodies everywhere....people in shock...

 

[juw177]

doctorj, I think you misinterpret my post. I was simply pointing out to Julia that humanitarian organisations are not always what they seem.

It has nothing to do with what is best for Burma. They need all the aid they can get.

I do however find the mass media spin questionable. They have always jumped on any chance to spin a negative story about the junta. Not to mention that these are not first hand reports since they are banned from Burma.

Burmese government has not rejected aid shipments. They simply said they will distribute them themselves. Supplies from all over the world have already been flown in.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7389607.stm

There is also no evidence that Burma is rejecting ALL foreign aid workers. There are already aid workers on the ground and more visas are to be granted. It seems it is only the journalists that are getting rejected.

Again, before someone misinterprets the above, I am simply stating the facts.


And finally, thanks for the entertaining post from the number 1 George Bush fan on ASF... Superfly.

 

[numbercruncher]

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert toms
I do not believe that the US aid was to be given in good faith ,with no strings attached.

Originally Posted by Julia
Can you explain what strings are attached and how you know this?

Originally Posted by juw177

Can you explain what strings are attached and how you know this?

I can't really say exactly but I do know Burma gets a lot of crap from the west:
-unfair sanctions (does the UN ever talk about Israel as a rogue state?)
-downright biased news coverage where the government is seen to do no right

This sort of stuff does not happen unless there is an interest in that country. You just need to look at all the puppet governments all over the world. What do they get in return for funding rebel groups in other countries? It is the same thing as when they send in "humanitarian aid" to tell people how to run their own homeland.

I believe the people that go and help are doing out of the goodness of their hearts but the organisation itself involves a lot of foreign policy politics and PR (often to defame the other country). I am highly skeptical of any organisation that rides into a country on a white horse to tell them they are morally superior. Why don't we see stories about how humanitarian aid not being able to help the thounsands dying in Iraq from the American occupation? But there are gorilla funds in Africa to protect gorillas from poaching by displacing native tribes.

I am all for helping the Burmese. But I can understand why their government is acting this way towards foreigners.

So we dont lose track of who we are talking to, it seems Robert Toms and juw77 are the one and the same ? Or were you just replying on Roberts behalf juw77 ?

 

[Superfly]

doctorj, I think you misinterpret my post. I was simply pointing out to Julia that humanitarian organisations are not always what they seem.

You may try to tone it down now, but you are wrong

Not much of a relpy to my post either Juw.... again because you are wrong... you are pushing the Chinese line... and it is wrong....

It has nothing to do with what is best for Burma. They need all the aid they can get.

Same attiude as China, China has pledged 5 million plus, but then says that Burma sovereignty must be up held.... sounds same as you are saying Juw.... hmmm

I do however find the mass media spin questionable. They have always jumped on any chance to spin a negative story about the junta.

Spoken like a true Chinese robot...

Not to mention that these are not first hand reports since they are banned from Burma.

WRONG !!!!! You are totally wrong here.... even Dan Rivers from CNN has been inside Burma....

Burmese government has not rejected aid shipments. They simply said they will distribute them themselves. Supplies from all over the world have already been flown in.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7389607.stm

Nothing compared to what is waiting to be flown in, and where is most of that already flown in aid right now.... not where it is needed, due to the Burmise government that you are defending.... this government was shooting poeple a few months ago, and now you want to trust them...

There is also no evidence that Burma is rejecting ALL foreign aid workers. There are already aid workers on the ground and more visas are to be granted. It seems it is only the journalists that are getting rejected.

Again, before someone misinterprets the above, I am simply stating the facts.


And finally, thanks for the entertaining post from the number 1 George Bush fan on ASF... Superfly.

Facts are that WFP does not just drop and leave, in any country in the world aid must be distributed by the aid workers, or what you get is young men turning up taking all the aid and old ladies and children get nothing.

Also are you saying that the Burmise military can get aid to people better than western help could...even if they had the equipment to deliver ( which they do not ), the military is tribal and will take care of some and not others...letting a few aid workers with only what they can carry on their back is not going help much....that is what is happening.... and again for you Juw...
Letting in a few aid workers that can only carry hand luggage is not going to help much... and then restricting their movements while inside the country...

 

[Superfly]

Also the Burmise military spent a large amount of time chasing Dan Rivers from CNN down inside Burma, while doing nothing to aid the people in the area's which CNN was filming...

Juw... to say that their are no "first hand reports" is absolutely WRONG...

....what you have been saying is a disgrace when one considers the misery that is going on in Burma right now...

This is not China Juw.... what time is it in downtown Beijing just now ?

 

[Superfly]

were you ever in the army tb?

... considering your previous concerns about Burma 20/20....what has this got to do with current events...

 

[Superfly]

So we dont lose track of who we are talking to, it seems Robert Toms and juw77 are the one and the same ? Or were you just replying on Roberts behalf juw77 ?

.... dumb & dumber ....

Neither could care less about the common people of Burma.... it's just opportunism to bad mouth the west.....

 

[juw177]

I stand by my point that the media is trying a bit too hard to make people believe Burma is rejecting aid supplies when it is not the case. But that seems to have taken a back seat to bashing the Hezboliah coup (without mentioning that they enjoys majority support in Lebanon).

Hey Superfly, if you are in SE asia, what are you doing to help the situation? Or are you hanging out at the red light district? For someone so obnoxious about US superiority over asia, what are you doing there? I have been to Thailand and I am very familiar with the bald white guys from the bottom of the social ladder back home who go traveling there being all arrogant to the Thai locals. It is very similar to the way you write about asia.

 

[2020hindsight]

... considering your previous concerns about Burma 20/20....what has this got to do with current events...

superfly,
tb says he questions if people who question US motives would have been prepared to fight in WWII “when we were being attacked” - (He chooses a legitimate call to arms I notice - which doesn’t apply to Iraq for instance.)

I simply asked had he been in the military. At the time I posted it, I thought it was relevant – possibly you’re right – possibly it isn’t.

Either was (whether he’s been in the military or not) I can’t see what right he has to question whether people who question US motives are right to do so, - - or question whether they would join up to defend Australia “if we were attacked”

Presumably you and he would prefer to swallow it all "hook line and sinker" - "all the way with LBJ" as we used to say in out ignorance back in the 60s.

considering your previous concerns about Burma 20/20.

Agreed that Burma isn’t relevant to whether tb has been in the army or not. – then again army service is arguably relevant to whether he thinks that people who question US motives would join up to defend Australia.

Back to that first post…
"would put their hand up to defend this country if we where being attacked as was the case in ww 2"
Did US put their hand up to defend England (and the "free world") in WWII?. (pre Pearl Harbour)

Did GW Bush ever put his hand up to defend the US?
or Clinton for that matter?
granted there was no legitimate call to arms in Vietnam, so the comparison is not perfect.

me? was I in the military ? - yes.
Did I go to Vietnam? - no, but I helped bury several soldiers who came back

PS you want to hear women cry SF - just go to a military funeral, and wait till there's an order for the firing party to "fire". Sheesh.

 

[Superfly]

superfly,
tb says he questions if people who question US motives would have been prepared to fight in WWII “when we were being attacked” - (He chooses a legitimate call to arms I notice - which doesn’t apply to Iraq for instance.)

I simply asked had he been in the military. At the time I posted it, I thought it was relevant – possibly you’re right – possibly it isn’t.

Either was (whether he’s been in the military or not) I can’t see what right he has to question whether people who question US motives are right to do so, - - or question whether they would join up to defend Australia “if we were attacked”

Presumably you and he would prefer to swallow it all "hook line and sinker" - "all the way with LBJ" as we used to say in out ignorance back in the 60s.


Agreed that Burma isn’t relevant to whether tb has been in the army or not. – then again it is arguably relevant to whether he thinks that people who question US motives would join up to defend Australia.

Back to that first post…
"would put their hand up to defend this country if we where being attacked as was the case in ww 2"
Did US put their hand up to defend England (and the "free world") in WWII?. (pre Pearl Harbour)

Did GW Bush ever put his hand up to defend the US?
or Clinton for that matter?
granted there was no legitimate call to arms in Vietnam, so the comparison is not perfect.

me? was I in the military ? - yes.
Did I go to Vietnam? - no, but I helped bury several soldiers who came back

Hmmm... one thing the US did do is the lend/lease agreement pre PH...which enabled England to keep fighting... but understand what your getting at there, although I do not totally agree with you on that.

 

[Superfly]

I stand by my point that the media is trying a bit too hard to make people believe Burma is rejecting aid supplies when it is not the case. But that seems to have taken a back seat to bashing the Hezboliah coup (without mentioning that they enjoys majority support in Lebanon).

Hey Superfly, if you are in SE asia, what are you doing to help the situation? Or are you hanging out at the red light district? For someone so obnoxious about US superiority over asia, what are you doing there? I have been to Thailand and I am very familiar with the bald white guys from the bottom of the social ladder back home who go traveling there being all arrogant to the Thai locals. It is very similar to the way you write about asia.

What are you talking about "obnoxious to the US over Asia".... wrong again... very very wrong...

What I'am i doing here... I work out of here ( nough said this is the internet)...secondly if you know SE Asia so well, then I'm more than happy to meet you down at RCA or if your in Singas then St James or Clark Quay and you can see if I'm some bald old guy from the bottom of the social ladder who hangs out with you fish source breath male tourist Chinese Go-Go bar junkies who the only time you Chinese ever get a good looker is by paying up bigtime to all the bar girls... and the girls laugh at you behind your backs.."little men"..."easy money maak maak" !!!

Anyway this is about Burma...not about me or you do... me or you are not straving having just lost half your family with a government who doesn't care about the situation, just about the governments own survival...

 

[IFocus]

I stand by my point that the media is trying a bit too hard to make people believe Burma is rejecting aid supplies when it is not the case.

The Junta is delaying aid supplies of that there is no question the reasons given are minor and irrelevant when considering the number of lives at stake.

Clearly we are talking about a military dictatorship that is committing deliberate genocide against its own people which is nothing new with military dictatorships generally.

They are only ever about serving themselves and cronies never about serving the people.

 

[Julia]

A
Juw... to say that their are no "first hand reports" is absolutely WRONG...

Yes, completely wrong. I have heard several first hand reports on ABC Radio.

 

[2020hindsight]

Well if the Yanks want to regain some kudos in "the region", they could try spending 50 or 100 times as much as they currently do in Laos to defuse UXO unexploded bombs left over from Vietnam days - I mean, what did the Laotians ever do to the US ??
Heck even 100 times more would still be 1/300 th of what they spend in Iraq.

(You wonder what McCain would say to a proposal to increase expenditure 100 fold , - since he dropped a stack of them).

http://www.boston.com/news/world/as...us_ups_aid_to_clear_unexploded_bombs_in_laos/

US ups aid to clear unexploded bombs in Laos
By Frederic J. Frommer, Associated Press | December 27, 2004

WASHINGTON -- Nearly 30 years after the end of the Vietnam War, the United States is increasing aid to help remove unexploded ordnance that continues to kill people in the former war zone, especially in Laos, where 2 million tons of bombs were dropped.

The United States has agreed to nearly double the amount of aid it provides to help remove those bombs, known as unexploded ordnance, or UXO. Congress approved $2.5 million for bomb removal in Laos next year, up from $1.4 million, as part of a move to normalize trade relations with the impoverished Southeast Asian country.

The United States bombed Laos relentlessly for about a decade in an effort to cut off North Vietnamese supply lines. Though the war ended in 1975, the carnage from those bombings continues.

So allocation in 2005 was "$2.5 million for bomb removal in Laos, up from $1.4 million"

Nearly a third of the bombs failed to explode, becoming "de facto antipersonnel mines," according to a Human Rights Watch report. The bombs have killed some 6,000 Laotians since the end of the fighting.

"Every time I go to Laos I meet fresh bomb victims who have lost an eye or a leg or two," said Jim Harris, a retired Wisconsin school principal who helps educate people about the experience of Laotian refugees in his state.

US pilots dropped 2 million tons of bombs on Laos from 1964 to 1973, double the amount dropped on Germany in World War II.

Some critics have opposed the improved trade relations and the increase in funding for bomb removal. They said Laos continues to persecute its Hmong minority, who fought alongside the CIA during the Vietnam War.

"Why should the US taxpayer pay to remove land mines and unexploded ordnance from the Vietnam War when the Lao government and military are involved in military operations against the Hmong people?" asked Philip Smith, the Washington director of Lao Veterans of America.

But Representative Betty McCollum, Democrat of Minnesota, said the United States "has a moral obligation to partner with the people of Laos to help eliminate the ordnance and put the land back into productive use for this impoverished nation."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11880954/

One thing is certain about the Iraq war: It has cost a lot more than advertised. In fact, the tab grows by at least $200 million each and every day.

So let's get this straight -
the US is prepared to increase aid allocation to remove 40 year old unexploded US bombs to US2.5 mill.. (wow)
.......
and meanwhile it is spending $200 mill per day in Iraq (= 30,000 times the spending rate) :eek3:

Or if you prefer, they spend as much every 18 minutes in Iraq as they spend per annum ($2.5mill) cleaning up the mess they left 30 years ago in Laos

Since the end of the Vietnam War, the millions of yellow cluster bombs that litter Laos have claimed more than three times as many dead as the World Trade Center attacks.

Thanghon is one of the “lucky” thousands who have survived. Sitting in a wheelchair, she talked through a translator in Vientiane, the backwater capital of a backwater country that lies curled like a sleeping cat along the Mekong River.

“I was working on the family farm and digging in the ground when a UXO exploded,” she says. “Two of my friends died.”

“I came to Vientiane for the amputations. It took three days and two nights by bus,” she continues. “I was at the point of death.” Thanghon lost both her legs and the use of one hand after a hoe struck a quarter-century-old “bombie.”

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Sometimes a people just go with a regime and no matter how much we in Australia try to understand, we fail to do so.

The Burmese, Koreans and Cambodians have a long history of this. The Germans from 1933 to 1945 behaved similarly. The Japanaese and Serbians have done the same in the past.

It seems fashionable today for people in the West to berate themselves or their government for a failure to "help" these people.

A good example now is the Iraq/Afghanistan war on terrorists.

The Burmese people have tolerated this regime and any unsupervised aid will go to bolster the regime.

I feel very sorry for the poor people as individuals and family groups, but not for the "Burmese People" as a nation.

I normally donate to International Relief, but I'm not so sure on this one.

gg

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080510/ap_on_re_as/myanmar_cyclone

Need I say more.

gg

 

[Superfly]

I mean, what did the Laotians ever do to the US ??

In 1967 Gen Westmoreland wanted a full scale invasion of Laos & Cambodia and increased bombing of the North... steps to win the war but Washington refused, and so a 500,000 strong army group remained penned inside South Vietnam taking terrible losses due in part to a jungle supply line inside Loas & Cambodia... Laos gave the NVA unrestricted access to move equipment within its borders, equipment that allowed fighting in the South... it was called the Ho Chi Minh trail and that is why, because of this supply line that Loas and Cambodia was so heavily bombed...

(You wonder what McCain would say to a proposal to increase expenditure 100 fold , - since he dropped a stack of them).

20/20....... You mock President Bush for not having a military record, and then knock J McCain for having a military record....

which one is it....

So allocation in 2005 was "$2.5 million for bomb removal in Laos, up from $1.4 million"



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11880954/


So let's get this straight -
the US is prepared to increase aid allocation to remove 40 year old unexploded US bombs to US2.5 mill.. (wow)
.......
and meanwhile it is spending $200 mill per day in Iraq (= 30,000 times the spending rate) :eek3:

Or if you prefer, they spend as much every 18 minutes in Iraq as they spend per annum ($2.5mill) cleaning up the mess they left 30 years ago in Laos :

Maybe this is for another thread 20/20.... this thread is about Burma and still you managed to start posting your anti-US ravings.......