Brexit OUT of EU: What happens now?

PZ99 · 18 December 2019

moXJO said:
Thats what you're throwing up in defence?

Of course - you can't preempt a breach of the law if you don't know the law was breached.

Why else do they have a justice system ?

sptrawler said:
Like I said, when the conservatives are in, the unions fight them tooth and nail.
When Labor are in the unions try to avoid any disruption, I have been to many stop work meetings, where we are told not to take any action because it would have an adverse effect on the sitting labor Party.
You can believe anything you like, obviously you have a good union and rep, which is great.
By the way Labor raised the pension age to 67 and I will be surprised if it isn't them, that lifts it to 70.
The stagnant wages would be there no matter who is in, the economy is contracting due to the post boom effect and the global slowdown, as I'm sure your aware.
Buying your way out of the situation at the moment, will just put us in a world of pain later, it wasn't long ago everyone was saying we were kicking the can down the road.
Well by tightening now and having a bit of pain, is the alternative, I guess we can't have it both ways.

I have never heard of, or been to a union meeting where they dictate our actions to protect the Labor party. That's a new one for me. Yes it's a good union, double figure % in two years. Something for the rest of the country to aspire to.

Yes, Labor raised the pension age to 67, they also raised the pension itself at the same time

First party that raises it to 70 will have more than just their cans getting kicked down the road.

moXJO · 18 December 2019

PZ99 said:
Of course - you can't preempt a breach of the law if you don't know the law was breached.

Why else do they have a justice system ?

Were we not just having a discussion against backing business over employees?

sptrawler · 18 December 2019

PZ99 said:
Yes it's a good union, double figure % in two years. Something for the rest of the country to aspire to.

So as I said your wages seem to be doing o.k under a coalition Government.

PZ99 said:
Yes, Labor raised the pension age to 67, they also raised the pension itself at the same time

That doesn't help those who are 65.

PZ99 said:
First party that raises it to 70 will have more than just their cans getting kicked down the road.

Apparently as above, it will be o.k as long as they increase the pension at the same time.

PZ99 · 18 December 2019

moXJO said:
Were we not just having a discussion against backing business over employees?

No I thought we were busting the myth that people who support Folau getting sacked were somehow violating their own political ideology.

sptrawler said:
So as I said your wages seem to be doing o.k under a coalition Government.

No, my wages are doing OK because of the union. Coalition Government played no role in that success - if they had their way, the union would be de-registered and/or banned from entering my workplace.

sptrawler said:
That doesn't help those who are 65.

It helps people who are 67, 68 and 69.
But yeah, if the Coalition want to bring it back to 65, I'll listen.

sptrawler said:
Apparently as above, it will be o.k as long as they increase the pension at the same time.

Apparently, no one is making that claim

sptrawler · 18 December 2019

Well I guess you just aren't a swing voter.

PZ99 · 18 December 2019

Well I guess I am given that I voted for the Coalition in the last state election and Labor in the last federal election.

In the case of the UK I think the Conservatives won for the same reason as they did in NSW - simply because the alternatives were hilarious. I don't think it has anything to do with the working class having some latent love of Conservative values in their DNA - it just doesn't scan.

IMO.

sptrawler · 18 December 2019

PZ99 said:
In the case of the UK I think the Conservatives won for the same reason as they did in NSW - simply because the alternatives were hilarious. I don't think it has anything to do with the working class having some latent love of Conservative values in their DNA - it just doesn't scan.

IMO.

I haven't heard anyone, say the working class has a latent love of conservatives.
More a disenchantment with Labor, than a love for the Conservatives, similar to what happened here.

PZ99 · 18 December 2019

sptrawler said:
I haven't heard anyone, say the working class has a latent love of conservatives.

Neither have I. But I have heard the view about the working class having some latent love of Conservative values. Or to put it another way, that they might be actual conservatives.

sptrawler · 18 December 2019

PZ99 said:
Neither have I. But I have heard the view about the working class having some latent love of Conservative values. Or to put it another way, that they might be actual conservatives.

Well the swing to the Conservatives in the U.K was huge, Labor lost seats that they have held for over 100 years apparently, it must be more than just poor presentation?
I guess we will have to see what happens here, next election, because the economy will still be slow I assume.

moXJO · 18 December 2019

PZ99 said:
No I thought we were busting the myth that people who support Folau getting sacked were somehow violating their own political ideology.

How is it a myth? the left leaning on here backed it.

PZ99 said:
Neither have I. But I have heard the view about the working class having some latent love of Conservative values. Or to put it another way, that they might be actual conservatives.

Do you know what the conservative values towards work are?

PZ99 · 18 December 2019

sptrawler said:
Well the swing to the Conservatives in the U.K was huge, Labor lost seats that they have held for over 100 years apparently, it must be more than just poor presentation?
I guess we will have to see what happens here, next election, because the economy will still be slow I assume.

I think it's totally poor presentation. Jeremy Corbyn was the worst possible alternative which is why the Labour party now want to lynch the living sheet out of him. We saw the same thing in NSW. Labor were on track for a win but lost their leader and replaced him with a guy who acted like a little kid caught lying and looking for some sort of miracle to save him from himself.

No one can win a Govt from opposition with that sort of poor effort.

moXJO said:
How is it a myth? the left leaning on here backed it.

That doesn't mean anything. I'm sure the left leaning were happy for the WBC bosses to be sacked too. I'm sure you'll agree that people are capable of thinking outside political lines ?

moXJO said:
Do you know what the conservative values towards work are?

Yes. They are to make you work till you drop, get paid the lowest possible wage, ban unfair dismissal laws, remove all workers' benefits such as sick leave, annual leave and penalty rates, turn every day into a Monday, make industrial action illegal and ban unions from entering workplaces. Don't believe me? They are, or were, conservative policies handed down over the last few decades.

sptrawler · 18 December 2019

PZ99 said:
I think it's totally poor presentation. Jeremy Corbyn was the worst possible alternative which is why the Labour party now want to lynch the living sheet out of him. We saw the same thing in NSW. Labor were on track for a win but lost their leader and replaced him with a guy who acted like a little kid caught lying and looking for some sort of miracle to save him from himself.

No one can win a Govt from opposition with that sort of poor effort.
.

That's interesting, I didn't follow the U.K election at all, but from what I was reading on ASF it sounded as though Johnson was the goose?
A bit like reading on ASF, one would think Trump will be hammered next election, if he even makes it that far?

moXJO · 18 December 2019

PZ99 said:
I think it's totally poor presentation. Jeremy Corbyn was the worst possible alternative which is why the Labour party now want to lynch the living sheet out of him. We saw the same thing in NSW. Labor were on track for a win but lost their leader and replaced him with a guy who acted like a little kid caught lying and looking for some sort of miracle to save him from himself.

No one can win a Govt from opposition with that sort of poor effort.

That doesn't mean anything. I'm sure the left leaning were happy for the WBC bosses to be sacked too. I'm sure you'll agree that people are capable of thinking outside political lines ?

Yes. They are to make you work till you drop, get paid the lowest possible wage, ban unfair dismissal laws, remove all workers' benefits such as sick leave, annual leave and penalty rates, turn every day into a Monday, make industrial action illegal and ban unions from entering workplaces. Don't believe me? They are, or were, conservative policies handed down over the last few decades.

Policies and values are completely different things.
So are capitalist and conservative values.

moXJO · 18 December 2019

sptrawler said:
A bit like reading on ASF, one would think Trump will be hammered next election, if he even makes it that far?

I think he is currently polling just ahead of all current democrat candidates. Early days though.

Smurf1976 · 18 December 2019

With regard to all the discussion about unions etc and noting the thread is about Brexit, I'll simply pose a question:

What, at a fundamental level, is Brexit really about?

It's hard to present it as anything other than a rejection by the mainstream of globalisation and big government (that is, the EU). Details aside, it's nationalism of a sort.

Now back to the blue collar workers that keep coming up, go to any worksite and start talking about this stuff and you'll immediately get told what the problem is. "Business will just go where it's cheapest if nobody stops them" and indeed they will.

Thing is, some guy with a shovel can see the obvious but we've got "geniuses" with economics degrees who keep harping on about Australia, UK and other developed countries moving to "higher value" work.

Now I'm pretty sure that the same guys with the shovels would say they've heard quite enough of these empty promises and it's time to force them to deliver. Let's have these supposedly higher value things, not necessarily for themselves but for their kids and others, and that doesn't mean cafes, tourism, mass immigration or mining since none of those are higher value activities than manufacturing etc that we've given up.

Truth is these "higher value" things aren't coming, at most what we've got is merely a small scale version of where we'd have been anyway as a technological leader. If we could make our own cars, appliances, electronics and so on then sure we'd be doing autonomous vehicles and so on now. Building a few such vehicles is thus not a sign of this "higher value" work arriving - at best it's a sign that something still remains of what used to be with innovation and manufacturing.

The masses can see that they've been sold a crock and they're not happy. Whoever's perceived as furthest away from that will thus be perceived as best of a bad bunch.

PZ99 · 18 December 2019

sptrawler said:
That's interesting, I didn't follow the U.K election at all, but from what I was reading on ASF it sounded as though Johnson was the goose?

Maybe he was, probably with a shorter neck But he clearly ran a superior campaign.

Trump doesn't even have an opposition yet. LOL. Impeachment ain't gonna happen.

moXJO said:
Policies and values are completely different things.
So are capitalist and conservative values.

You wouldn't create conservative policies if you didn't have conservative values

Capitalism is a union strength. If you want to de-regulate IR laws you start ny removing all restrictions on union activity. I'm all right, Jack...

sptrawler · 18 December 2019

Smurf1976 said:
With regard to all the discussion about unions etc and noting the thread is about Brexit, I'll simply pose a question:

What, at a fundamental level, is Brexit really about?

It's hard to present it as anything other than a rejection by the mainstream of globalisation and big government (that is, the EU). Details aside, it's nationalism of a sort.

Now back to the blue collar workers that keep coming up, go to any worksite and start talking about this stuff and you'll immediately get told what the problem is. "Business will just go where it's cheapest if nobody stops them" and indeed they will.

Thing is, some guy with a shovel can see the obvious but we've got "geniuses" with economics degrees who keep harping on about Australia, UK and other developed countries moving to "higher value" work.

Now I'm pretty sure that the same guys with the shovels would say they've heard quite enough of these empty promises and it's time to force them to deliver. Let's have these supposedly higher value things - and that doesn't mean cafes, tourism, mass immigration or mining since none of those are higher value activities than manufacturing etc that we've given up.

Truth is these "higher value" things aren't coming, at most what we've got is merely a small scale version of where we'd have been anyway as a technological leader. The masses can see that and they're not happy.

I really can't see where our wages growth is going to come from. We continue to slide down the industrialization index, automation is beginning to eat into high paying low skilled mining jobs, our education standard is falling and very little tertiary industry is being established.
IMO it isn't looking good.
I think the UK election was the masses saying we have had enough, it will be interesting to see how the UK goes in the next three years, if it does well I think our next election will be a landslide to one party or the other.

Smurf1976 · 18 December 2019

PZ99 said:
You wouldn't create conservative policies if you didn't have conservative values

Governments can create policies which the leader personally disagrees with from an ideological perspective but which are pragmatically considered best for the nation as a whole in view of the prevailing circumstances.

Prior to this "identity politics" nonsense that's how governments operated.

PZ99 · 18 December 2019

Smurf1976 said:
Governments can create policies which the leader personally disagrees with from an ideological perspective but which are pragmatically considered best for the nation as a whole in view of the prevailing circumstances.

Or the other way around. But we've seen how long leaders keep their job in this country if they don't tow the party line.

Winning elections tends to give leaders authority over the factions. Boris will get what he wants.

sptrawler · 18 December 2019

Smurf1976 said:
Governments can create policies which the leader personally disagrees with from an ideological perspective but which are pragmatically considered best for the nation as a whole in view of the prevailing circumstances.

Prior to this "identity politics" nonsense that's how governments operated.

Which is exactly what I mentioned earlier, with regard Bob Hawke and the crushing of the pilots dispute.
But it didn't get much traction.
The World is all grey at the moment, mention black and white and you are given a bell and sent to the naughty corner.

Brexit OUT of EU: What happens now?

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