BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

[Prospector]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Well, it seems that Ebay caught up with the sale because it is now no longer available. Sales are viewable for 90 days after closure but this one has gone.

Imagine if the sale had been made to a teenager, as ebay doesn't impose age restrictions.

 

[awg]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

OMG... someone just bought the shares at ebay!!

Merry Xmas to the seller. Not so happy new year for the buyer!

I wonder how legally binding is this ebay transaction??

hey ladies & gents,

you can buy or sell items on ebay, but that does not mean spit until the title is transferred via the share registry or a broker.

that means the seller would still be the legal holder.

as ebay has a policy prohibiting share sales, it would not be legally binding in anyway (unless someone was stupid enough to complete the transfer documentation)

 

[lesm]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Absolutely Julia,

Just to proove how easy it is for ANYONE who has no understanding of stocks & shares can get hooked up in this Fraud.

I cant put my mind to anything else on this earth that with a $500 investment could wind you up with a $1M debt.... without any intention.
yes people should do research ect, I am one that didnt look into it.
However the fact it has been allowed to happen without significant warning and double checking is wrong. Regardless of whos to blame.
The Fact that even after all the publicity people are STILL getting caught up in this, and the the culprits still getting away with it!!

If you are going to make unsubstantiated allegations, such as those above, you really should be getting good legal advice. Would suggest you seek advice from one of the top legal firms.

It is pure supposition on your part that all persons buying BCSCA are not aware of the nature of the share or the attached laibility. While it may be true of some it is not necesarily true of all. Some people actually undertake a modicum of research before purchasing shares.

You need to maintain a level of objectivity, including focussing on relevant matters and facts rather than emotions or wild allegations.

Try taking at least a minimum level of responsibility for your actions rather than trying to blame other parites or look for excuses. You have already admitted that you didn't undertake any research related to BCSCA. The Comsec basic service provides a no frills non-advisory service, which places some emphasis and responsibility back on yourself to do some basic research.

This appears to be a situation that neither the ASX or ASIC envisioned would occur in the equities market. In that, naive investors/traders would blindly buy shares in the market, with little or no research or even a basic understanding of the codes used and their implications. Even the ASA uses the term 'naive investors'.

The situation is exacerbated due to no active market for the concerned share, which effectively traps the shareholders wanting to sell their shares. This has similarities to day traders caught in the market when a stock goes into a trading halt or is suspended.

In terms of your allegation of fraud.

If you consider that BCS issued an IPO in accordance with the relevant laws, regulations and approvals, on what basis has fraud been committed on its part?

The online brokers provided a service that they provide every trading day of the week, where buyers and sellers enter their orders and are automatically matched via the ITS system, on what basis has fraud been committed on their part?

Maybe it was the sellers who assumed that the buyers actually understood what a contributing share was and that they (the buyers) knew what liabilities they were taking on. Maybe you think the sellers perpetrated the fraud.

There is a distinct difference between alleging improper or non-disclosure of pertinent facts, as opposed to an allegation of fraud.

The information that you required to make an informed decision was actually available on the Comsec site. While it may not have been readily apparent from the 'deal ticket' it was available under the 'Announcement Section' of the site. An obvious announcement to look at is entitled 'Investor Presentation'.

What is not clear, of the affected shareholders using online brokers that displayed '$1 Paid $2 Unpaid', is how many of them still went ahead and purchased the shares anyway, without understanding the implications.

What is interesting about this situation is how many of the buyers actually knew about the liability or did not know about the liability, but were speculating/gambling on a 'dead-cat bounce' or increase in share price to make some fast dollars. They never realised that the situation could occur where the market in the share could dry up and they would not be able to sell their shares, ultimately becoming trapped.

Some of the speculators/gamblers caught in this manner will jump on the bandwagon, of those who actually made a naive mistake, hoping that any ensuing legal action or negotiations may get them off the hook.

If the ASA, ASX, ASIC, BCS or its underwriters cannot work out a way forward that is equitable to all affected parties and it subsequently goes to court in any manner or form it will be interesting, as to how it proceeds and the final outcome.

If 'caveat emptor' is considered to apply, then this will be an expensive mistake for the affected parties.

I have a split view on this situation.

For those naive investors who made an error through lack of research or market knowledge, I sympathise with your plight and wish you well, but there are no guarantees as to how this will pan out in the end.

For those speculators/gamblers that were trying to make a fast dollar and have been trapped (a market risk has been realised) due to their greed, I have no sympathy at all.

 

[thermalmonster]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

No lesm, I dont understand the market very much at all.
I have never invested in anything in my life other than my super.
But I know that you shouldnt be able to sign up for a million dollas worth of debt before being vetted.
Its called iresponsibility.

Look, whilst I agree with your comments about others who new about the future installments jumping on the band waggon ect, And I hold my hands up to not doing the research, But it is still wrong!!

Ive only been in the country for 6 months!! and fall in to this trap, because instead of putting my dough in the bank I thought invest in a project that the company I am working for is contracted to build. I thought I was being Prudent !!
Didnt think for a minuite about possible future commitments.

If there was somthing on COMSEC which stated I was Liable for a further $2.00 / share I simply would not have ordered them.
Also if this was disclosed properly there would have been no Grey area for people to be able to jump on the band waggon so to speak.
The Fact that this information is not Forthcoming to the Layman is fundementaly wrong.
If you were to conduct a risk assesment , there is a high risk that someone could get caught, and the consequence of the risk fatal.
We are not all Stockmarket Gurus and the relevant companies should have measures in place to protect Joe Public !! Duty of care

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

No lesm, I dont understand the market very much at all.
I have never invested in anything in my life other than my super.
But I know that you shouldnt be able to sign up for a million dollas worth of debt before being vetted.
Its called iresponsibility.

Look, whilst I agree with your comments about others who new about the future installments jumping on the band waggon ect, And I hold my hands up to not doing the research, But it is still wrong!!

Ive only been in the country for 6 months!! and fall in to this trap, because instead of putting my dough in the bank I thought invest in a project that the company I am working for is contracted to build. I thought I was being Prudent !!
Didnt think for a minuite about possible future commitments.

If there was somthing on COMSEC which stated I was Liable for a further $2.00 / share I simply would not have ordered them.
Also if this was disclosed properly there would have been no Grey area for people to be able to jump on the band waggon so to speak.
The Fact that this information is not Forthcoming to the Layman is fundementaly wrong.
If you were to conduct a risk assesment , there is a high risk that someone could get caught, and the consequence of the risk fatal.
We are not all Stockmarket Gurus and the relevant companies should have measures in place to protect Joe Public !! Duty of care

Tough as it may sound mate, if you did not understand the market you should not have been in it.

Its a bit like going to a Jap market selling veggies you know nothing about and not knowing the value of the yen.

You buggered up.

Learn from it and move on.

gg

 

[thermalmonster]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Oh, I have learnt from it all right
my amount of liability shouldnt be enough to bankrupt me, but it doesnt make it right, I actualy bought the shares when they were still worth something!!
Worse case scenario I will have to borrow 10K pay the first installment and sell ASAP and pay the loan off.

The Ironic bit will be when I apply to Comsec for the Loan !

However I will still fight this tooth and nail with the poor buggers that owe Millions because Im a man of principal, and in this case the principal is wrong.

Still you must admit it is probably the most interesting Thread you stockmarket dudes must have had for a long while!

Cant wait to see what pans out.............

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Oh, I have learnt from it all right
my amount of liability shouldnt be enough to bankrupt me, but it doesnt make it right, I actualy bought the shares when they were still worth something!!
Worse case scenario I will have to borrow 10K pay the first installment and sell ASAP and pay the loan off.

The Ironic bit will be when I apply to Comsec for the Loan !

However I will still fight this tooth and nail with the poor buggers that owe Millions because Im a man of principal, and in this case the principal is wrong.

Still you must admit it is probably the most interesting Thread you stockmarket dudes must have had for a long while!

Cant wait to see what pans out.............

Mate we've all been caught out one time or another.

One good option is to go bankrupt and start off again.

gg

 

[sails]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

IMO, Joe Public should probably be denied permission to trade these types of instalment shares online until relevant trading approval has been granted.

Joe Public does not have permission trade ETOs and warrants without signing documentation stating he/she has read the relevant educational material and that the risks involved are fully understood. Perhaps stapled securities and the like should require similar trading approvals in the future.

What has made this situation so bad is that it costs so little to rattle up millions in future debt. If bcsca were trading around $1, Joe Public punters with $500 to spend would only get 500 shares as and a more reasonable liability of $1000 in the future. And the market would most likely still be liquid, meaning shares can be sold before the next instalment.

I can see both sides of the argument, but it would appear that the powers that be may not have considered the extraordinary risks to mum and dad investors in the unlikely event that an instalment share price would drop so low in relation to its future instalments as has happened in the case of bcsca.

 

[Judd]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

.....But its ok for the ASX and COMSEC to sell them to us ???

That statement alone displays an extraordinary level of ignorance indicating you should not have gone anywhere near the sharemarket. In very simple terms neither the ASX nor Commsec sold the shares to you.

What I find baffling is:

• how in the heck did people actually find these obscure shares in the first place and why didn't that fact start the alarm bells going off in the grey matter;
  
• when the largest of companies are listed on the ASX under a three alpha code why looking at something with a five alpha code didn't cause the potential buyer to go "Whoa, there Trigger."

Anyway, the situation most find themselves in is down to greed. "Wow, if this goes from $0.01 to $0.02, I'll double my money." It probably wont and those who have bought have got burnt and some are looking to blame someone. Maybe they should look in the mirror for that.

I know that is cruel but I have been dealing with a lot of people who, when things go wrong, wish to place the blame at the feet of another. They don't like it very much when I say that there is no one else but then I don't like it very much when they wont take responsibility for their own actions. I'm kind of over it.

 

[Prospector]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

• how in the heck did people actually find these obscure shares in the first place and why didn't that fact start the alarm bells going off in the grey matter;
  
• when the largest of companies are listed on the ASX under a three alpha code why looking at something with a five alpha code didn't cause the potential buyer to go "Whoa, there Trigger."

I think Thermalmonster works for Thiess who are involved in building the project. So hardly obscure for him. I have bought options (a five letter code) but the unique issue with BCSCA is that

1. There are no buyers at all
2. Buying the options came with an additional liability; with other options you can simply let them lapse and all you lose is your original outlay
3. The price tanked; people outlaying very small amounts of money - $500 - incur a multi million dollar debt.

There has never been anything like this before.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I think Thermalmonster works for Thiess who are involved in building the project. So hardly obscure for him. I have bought options (a five letter code) but the unique issue with BCSCA is that

1. There are no buyers at all
2. Buying the options came with an additional liability; with other options you can simply let them lapse and all you lose is your original outlay
3. The price tanked; people outlaying very small amounts of money - $500 - incur a multi million dollar debt.

There has never been anything like this before.

Its called capitalism.

And it happens daily.

Get real.

gg

 

[sails]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Its called capitalism.

And it happens daily.

Get real.

gg

Capitalism may happen daily - but this appears to be rather unique.

I think I read that Thermal has about 13,000 shares. Their total value would be $13 at today's price of $0.001 and incurs a future $26,000 debt.

Now, that doesn't happen daily.

 

[Prospector]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Its called capitalism.

And it happens daily.

Get real.

gg

Are you for real?

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Capitalism may happen daily - but this appears to be rather unique.

I think I read that Thermal has about 13,000 shares. Their total value would be $13 at today's price of $0.001 and incurs a future $26,000 debt.

Now, that doesn't happen daily.

Are you for real?

Go into business mates.

Rent a place.

Have employees.

Try to satisfy customers.

Have the banks on your back.

Stand in a shop with a stock value of $2m and have 3 people walk per day in and say I'm just browsing.

And smile.


That is what a mate of mine is doing at present.

It is capitalism.

These silly Brisconnect folk are getting off lightly.

gg

 

[chops_a_must]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

No lesm, I dont understand the market very much at all.
I have never invested in anything in my life other than my super.

Its called iresponsibility.

And I hold my hands up to not doing the research, But it is still wrong!!

Honestly.

I think Thermalmonster works for Thiess who are involved in building the project. So hardly obscure for him. I have bought options (a five letter code) but the unique issue with BCSCA is that

1. There are no buyers at all
2. Buying the options came with an additional liability; with other options you can simply let them lapse and all you lose is your original outlay
3. The price tanked; people outlaying very small amounts of money - $500 - incur a multi million dollar debt.

There has never been anything like this before.

These aren't options...

 

[sails]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Go into business mates.

Rent a place.

Have employees.

Try to satisfy customers.

Have the banks on your back.

Stand in a shop with a stock value of $2m and have 3 people walk per day in and say I'm just browsing.

And smile.


That is what a mate of mine is doing at present.

It is capitalism.

These silly Brisconnect folk are getting off lightly.

gg

Done the business thing - rented a place - had employees
BUT we knew what the debt was upfront - big difference.

Your mate with a $2m debt would have signed contracts and known about the risks and associated costs before going into business. While it is a terrible situation for your friend, it is hardly comparable to the unique situation with BrisC. I can't see how that is comparing apples with apples...

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Done the business thing - rented a place - had employees
BUT we knew what the debt was upfront - big difference.

Your mate with a $2m debt would have signed contracts and known about the risks and associated costs before going into business. While it is a terrible situation for your friend, it is hardly comparable to the unique situation with BrisC. I can't see how that is comparing apples with apples...

And your mates would not have read a newspaper for the previous six months,

Tough.

I feel sorry for them

But they have lost.

They were greedy and ignorant.

Greed I can cope with.

gg

 

[sails]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

And your mates would not have read a newspaper for the previous six months,

Tough.

I feel sorry for them

But they have lost.

They were greedy and ignorant.

Greed I can cope with.

gg

Not my mates, gg - wouldn't know them if I fell over them.

It's the principle of the thing. From my perspective, it appears there may have been inadequate precautions in place for mum and dad type investors.

Fences are built in public places to stop the general public falling over cliffs, etc. I don't see the difference.

A few months ago we took our daughter in who was in severe depression. She came with her two daughters - one aged 18 months and one 9 yrs. We have a small two bedroom unit, so it's been crowded. She is slowly improving and we are hopeful now that the kids will have a more normal home life down the track.

gg, you may have handled this differently with your apparent hardline approach. Sorry, but I have a heart. Sometimes that also shows in expressing support for people I don't know.

Anyway, I have more to do than continue this hopeless conversation. You have your views and I have mine.

Looks like we will never agree on this issue

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Not my mates, gg - wouldn't know them if I fell over them.

It's the principle of the thing. From my perspective, it appears there may have been inadequate precautions in place for mum and dad type investors.

Fences are built in public places to stop the general public falling over cliffs, etc. I don't see the difference.

A few months ago we took our daughter in who was in severe depression. She came with her two daughters - one aged 18 months and one 9 yrs. We have a small two bedroom unit, so it's been crowded. She is slowly improving and we are hopeful now that the kids will have a more normal home life down the track.

gg, you may have handled this differently with your apparent hardline approach. Sorry, but I have a heart. Sometimes that also shows in expressing support for people I don't know.

Anyway, I have more to do than continue this hopeless conversation. You have your views and I have mine.


Looks like we will never agree on this issue

Callous as it may sound you need to separate investment decisions from life events.

I have a relative with mental illness and I agree it is difficult.


When one invests one takes on risk.

If you are ill informed then you may win or lose.

Greed lay at your decision to invest in Brisconnect

Blind Freddie would have known it was pit. AFR, Australian, Daily Telegraph WA News.

You were driven by your instincts and you lost.

Tough

cheerio

gg

 

[sails]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Callous as it may sound you need to separate investment decisions from life events.

I have a relative with mental illness and I agree it is difficult.


When one invests one takes on risk.

If you are ill informed then you may win or lose.

Greed lay at your decision to invest in Brisconnect

Blind Freddie would have known it was pit. AFR, Australian, Daily Telegraph WA News.

You were driven by your instincts and you lost.

Tough

cheerio

gg

Sorry, not me. As I have said before, I do not own bcsca shares and never have