Australia’s $911,000,000,000 Debt

[Smurf1976]

The subject seems to have changed but so far as genders and sexuality are concerned, I've always considered people to be people and that's it really.

Me well I'm a heterosexual male who's always worked in traditionally male dominated industries either on the tools or in the office. But I'm not keen on stereotypes and the idea of doing "traditionally female" things doesn't scare me in the slightest. Life's short, may as well live it.

Friends would be pretty close to 50 / 50 male and female and I've never seen a problem with that.

As for LGBTQ well I'm good friends with one in particular (female) and have been so for nearly 30 years now. There wouldn't be much we don't know about each other so I'll comment by saying neither she nor her wife are in the "easily offended" category. Context is how they'll see it and if someone makes a genuine mistake over names, titles or whatever well it's no reason to be getting excited. There's a big difference between a wrong assumption and hatred.

As for the "pride" thing well we had that conversation not that long ago. In short they're seeing it as something that has passed its use-by date. Historically there was something to fight for with all sorts of discrimination and so on both formal (government etc) and casually in society and that prompted the whole thing. Today though, they're seeing it as a campaign for the sake of it, somewhat akin to any situation where someone keeps fighting the war after it's over.

As one of them puts it, we've got LGBTQ sexuality being very publicly displayed and celebrated in front of everyone meanwhile heterosexuals, especially men, are expected to suppress theirs almost completely in public. They don't really care which way it is, but they dislike the double standard.

 

[farmerge]

Profound, and totally my experience too. There's HEAPS of *LGB* folks in the horsey world. (Plus a lot of stuff that would make even Jilly Cooper blush). Including many clients and many of whom I would consider friends.

None profess any personal pronouns other than what their biological sex is. Apart from one gay guy who was interchangeably refered to as either he or she, but it was no big deal. (Partner of my best friend's brother, unfortunately passed away quite young).

It's actually quite entertaining, the juxtaposition between gays and straights and the resulting good humoured banter.

IME these people aren't so keen on the politics of rest of the alphabet soup and really quite embarrassed by the pride month excesses.

It really is a non issue, the least interesting thing about people in our sport and nobody gives a crap.

FWIW

Had some funny moments with one couple of ladies who were in their 60's some years ago.
Both had been married as a "normal" couple for some years with families.
Both had said don't going me or her/"him" "Joe" or "Mary".
They thought that this was the tops in joke land.
They got me on this one. had a good laugh with them and back to work, and an ale with them at the day'd end.

 

[Value Collector]

You are being disingenuous and unintelligent. My example was clear enough.

It's stupid at best and intentional division at worst.

No what is and disingenuous is you pretending you don’t want to use the pronouns because of grammar, when it’s obviously something else bothering you, And what is unintelligent is you not knowing that you already use those pronouns. Remember this all started because you said this

I will never ever, under any circumstance is however prostitute my language and good grammar with they/them (unless referring to people in plural).

Then, I show you many different ways that it is in-fact quite normal grammar and speech to use they/them to refer to single people.

And your one example where you said “they is going to the shop” I showed is perfectly sound if you just change “is” to “are” and say “they are going to the shop.

Eg. Think of this conversations

Person a “my partner will be arriving late”
Person b “why is that”
Person a “they are going to the shop”

See, it’s fine to say they, because we don’t know if the partner is male or female.

——————————

But anyway, I have shown you that you are wrong, but I don’t expect you to admit it, your head is to cabbaged up on these sorts of issues. So cabbaged up you can’t even think about how you regularly speak.

All I can say is listen to the way you talk, now that I have brought it to your attention you will probably notice your self referring to people as they and them all the time.

 

[Value Collector]

The subject seems to have changed but so far as genders and sexuality are concerned, I've always considered people to be people and that's it really.

Me well I'm a heterosexual male who's always worked in traditionally male dominated industries either on the tools or in the office. But I'm not keen on stereotypes and the idea of doing "traditionally female" things doesn't scare me in the slightest. Life's short, may as well live it.

Friends would be pretty close to 50 / 50 male and female and I've never seen a problem with that.

As for LGBTQ well I'm good friends with one in particular (female) and have been so for nearly 30 years now. There wouldn't be much we don't know about each other so I'll comment by saying neither she nor her wife are in the "easily offended" category. Context is how they'll see it and if someone makes a genuine mistake over names, titles or whatever well it's no reason to be getting excited. There's a big difference between a wrong assumption and hatred.

As for the "pride" thing well we had that conversation not that long ago. In short they're seeing it as something that has passed its use-by date. Historically there was something to fight for with all sorts of discrimination and so on both formal (government etc) and casually in society and that prompted the whole thing. Today though, they're seeing it as a campaign for the sake of it, somewhat akin to any situation where someone keeps fighting the war after it's over.

As one of them puts it, we've got LGBTQ sexuality being very publicly displayed and celebrated in front of everyone meanwhile heterosexuals, especially men, are expected to suppress theirs almost completely in public. They don't really care which way it is, but they dislike the double standard.

Being Gay is far more accepted these days in australia than it was 30 years ago, so if your friend is lesbian she wouldn’t be having nearly as hard a time as she would have 30 years ago, so I can she why she would believe her battle is largely over.

However, when it comes to Transgender people, their battle is very far from over, they still face a lot of hate and discrimination. You can see how much people can get upset with just being asked to use gender neutral pronouns. Let alone other topics related to the matter.

 

[Value Collector]

Check out this very short video. @farmerge

 

[farmerge]

Barry Humphries aka Mrs/Dame Edna
He just laughed all the way to the bank.

 

[Value Collector]

Barry Humphries aka Mrs/Dame Edna
He just laughed all the way to the bank.

Yep, and was funny. But for some people it’s not a joke, it’s who they are.

But did you watch the video, it’s not dame edna.

 

[farmerge]

Yep, and was funny. But for some people it’s not a joke, it’s who they are.

But did you watch the video, it’s not dame edna.

another one who made a killing out of being opposite was Danny la Rue. A very funny individual
Not tonight, close to stumps time. Will have a look tomorroe when it is raining.

 

[Value Collector]

another one who made a killing out of being opposite was Danny la Rue. A very funny individual
Not tonight, close to stumps time. Will have a look tomorroe when it is raining.

It’s only a 30 second video?

 

[farmerge]

It’s only a 30 second video?

Checked it out, nothing offensive to me there

 

[Value Collector]

Checked it out, nothing offensive to me there

See, so it’s not so bad. So this conversation started by you being upset that your son’s employer put out a form asking people what gender they wished to be referred to as.

Would it really be a big deal if a few of the staff said they preferred to be called she/her or they/them rather than he/him?

It shouldn’t be a big deal, as I said at the start it’s just polite and kind to refer to people how they like, no need to get upset.

Society is changing from the one you grew up in, just like you saw it change from the one your grandparents grew up in. But the changes are for the better.

 

[farmerge]

See, so it’s not so bad. So this conversation started by you being upset that your son’s employer put out a form asking people what gender they wished to be referred to as.

Would it really be a big deal if a few of the staff said they preferred to be called she/her or they/them rather than he/him?

It shouldn’t be a big deal, as I said at the start it’s just polite and kind to refer to people how they like, no need to get upset.

Society is changing from the one you grew up in, just like you saw it change from the one your grandparents grew up in. But the changes are for the better.

What got up my son's nose is not the people it is a department dedicated to a prolification of e-mails to all sections of the company ad-nausium. These people do not contribute a cracker to the business, but somehow justify their existence by churning out "pride" information on a regular basis.
Sadly my day is ended The Slumber King summons.

 

[Smurf1976]

Being Gay is far more accepted these days in australia than it was 30 years ago, so if your friend is lesbian she wouldn’t be having nearly as hard a time as she would have 30 years ago, so I can she why she would believe her battle is largely over.

She's definitely copped a hell of a lot in the past. Let's just say her father in particular wasn't exactly supportive.....

Trying to take a neutral position but I think there's an issue with how all this is presented to those on the sidelines or who are learning about the world around them (children).

Looking around me I see LGBTQ portrayed as overt sexuality in public, street parties, bright colours, dressing up and all the rest. I'm not saying that's what it is, but it's how it's portrayed and there's a strong message sent that everyone ought accept this.

Now when's the last time anyone saw heterosexuality portrayed in a manner even remotely similar? When's the last time anyone was told they ought accept or at least tolerate openly public displays of male and/or female heterosexuality?

There's a massive contrast there and that's not helping the cause in my view. It's sending a message that the difference between LGBTQ and heterosexual is far greater than it actually is in the context of everyday life. It's sending a message that there's some sort of real divide when in reality we're talking about personal relationships between consenting adults.

 

[qldfrog]

She's definitely copped a hell of a lot in the past. Let's just say her father in particular wasn't exactly supportive.....

Trying to take a neutral position but I think there's an issue with how all this is presented to those on the sidelines or who are learning about the world around them (children).

Looking around me I see LGBTQ portrayed as overt sexuality in public, street parties, bright colours, dressing up and all the rest. I'm not saying that's what it is, but it's how it's portrayed and there's a strong message sent that everyone ought accept this.

Now when's the last time anyone saw heterosexuality portrayed in a manner even remotely similar? When's the last time anyone was told they ought accept or at least tolerate openly public displays of male and/or female heterosexuality?

There's a massive contrast there and that's not helping the cause in my view. It's sending a message that the difference between LGBTQ and heterosexual is far greater than it actually is in the context of everyday life. It's sending a message that there's some sort of real divide when in reality we're talking about personal relationships between consenting adults.

I think Wayne nailed it

It's stupid at best and intentional division at worst.
VC at his her they them best
And as I do not consider VC stupid,...
Division,the big tribes experience, us vs them (hey here we are again?)
Doesn't this thread summarise the whole societal issue. And in my view the west decadence
Look at the whole last page of posts, instead of dealing with a real life or death societal issue,trillions of debt, we care about the sex of angels equivalent.
How many people really care who other want to fxxk. Seriously?
I do not ask any lady I meet if she is vaginal or clito, or want to be tied down slapped or do the reverse..to each his her own.
So leave the kids alone and do as you please as long as everyone is willing.
Let's go back to our pitiful collapsing western world whose only left production seems to be new morals, lesson giving and weapon selling to smash " them"

 

[Value Collector]

She's definitely copped a hell of a lot in the past. Let's just say her father in particular wasn't exactly supportive.....

Trying to take a neutral position but I think there's an issue with how all this is presented to those on the sidelines or who are learning about the world around them (children).

Looking around me I see LGBTQ portrayed as overt sexuality in public, street parties, bright colours, dressing up and all the rest. I'm not saying that's what it is, but it's how it's portrayed and there's a strong message sent that everyone ought accept this.

Now when's the last time anyone saw heterosexuality portrayed in a manner even remotely similar? When's the last time anyone was told they ought accept or at least tolerate openly public displays of male and/or female heterosexuality?

There's a massive contrast there and that's not helping the cause in my view. It's sending a message that the difference between LGBTQ and heterosexual is far greater than it actually is in the context of everyday life. It's sending a message that there's some sort of real divide when in reality we're talking about personal relationships between consenting adults.

I think you are talking about Mardi Gras, there are similar Heterosexual celebrations.

 

[Value Collector]

What got up my son's nose is not the people it is a department dedicated to a prolification of e-mails to all sections of the company ad-nausium. These people do not contribute a cracker to the business, but somehow justify their existence by churning out "pride" information on a regular basis.
Sadly my day is ended The Slumber King summons.

I couldn’t imagine they are spanning him with that much stuff, maybe he doesn’t understand the importance of the topic, or maybe he is a little over sensitive to it.

 

[farmerge]

I couldn’t imagine they are spanning him with that much stuff, maybe he doesn’t understand the importance of the topic, or maybe he is a little over sensitive to it.

Not that at all. every department gets this rubbish and has to/must acknowledge that they seen/read it.
Crickey even have rainbow boots these days. And some of the ore wagons are rainbow painted, give me a break
All gone made just to be politically correct.

 

[Value Collector]

Not that at all. every department gets this rubbish and has to/must acknowledge that they seen/read it.
Crickey even have rainbow boots these days. And some of the ore wagons are rainbow painted, give me a break
All gone made just to be politically correct.

Not that at all. every department gets this rubbish and has to/must acknowledge that they seen/read it.
Crickey even have rainbow boots these days. And some of the ore wagons are rainbow painted, give me a break
All gone made just to be politically correct.

It’s not about political correctness, the LGBTQ community has the highest rate of suicide in australia from any group, even more than return soldiers. Being shown that their community accepts them for who they are will go along way to helping reduce suicides and other mental health problems.

Even parents of LGBTQ people often feel shame etc, and often reject their kids through fear of losing their place in peer groups, it can tear family’s apart, the more people see it’s ok and accepted they better, and the less Ammo the haters have.

If you don’t care about building a more inclusive accepting society I can see why it might all seem a bit much, but it is actually a big deal.

 

[Smurf1976]

Even parents of LGBTQ people often feel shame etc, and often reject their kids through fear of losing their place in peer groups, it can tear family’s apart, the more people see it’s ok and accepted they better, and the less Ammo the haters have.

Fully agree.

What I do see issues with however is the nature of the response to that and, in the context of workers in large organisations, consistency.

I've always worked in large organisations, small business may well be different I don't really know, but in my experience nobody in a workplace objects to genuine efforts to support someone in difficulty, to stamp out prejudice against a particular group and things like that. I can't recall a single incident where anyone even muttered a word of objection.

What does cause trouble and which can escalate badly however is if either there's a perception of bias and inconsistency with who's assisted and who's not or, even worse, that the promise is shown to be nothing more than meaningless words and falls flat the moment anyone tries to call upon it.

One situation I'm aware of involved the employer's HR department putting up an abundance of anti-bullying posters, holding meetings on the subject and so on. All sounds great - nobody likes a bully, right?

Now guess what happened at that very same organisation when allegations were made, by multiple employees, of bullying from the same individual? Allegations that were ultimately substantiated when unions took the matter to the Industrial Commission.

Yep, you guessed it, HR backed the bully to the hilt and ultimately managed out all who complained. So much for all those posters and meetings, pity it was just hot air.

That one happened in the public service. Source = I've friends who work in the same department and the basic story's pretty well known locally due to the actions of unions and so on. Happened some years ago now.

More generically and this one's hypothetical but consider the following scenario:

Large organisation either business or government.

Same company, same office and same manager for all three employees.

Employee 1 puts up a poster on a physical notice board promoting Mardi Gras.

Employee 2 puts up a poster on the same notice board promoting a male "revue" or strip show aimed at a primarily female audience.

Employee 3 puts up a poster on the same notice board promoting some one-off event at a nearby strip club which, to clarify, is female performers and aimed at a primarily male audience.

All three posters are "clean" official advertising for the relevant events and do not show nudity.

Now what happens?

I'll suggest that the first one won't be touched and will be left well alone. Odds are it'll still be up a month after the event's occurred.

The second will quietly "disappear" and nobody will admit to knowing what happened. It'll remain an unresolved mystery as to who took it down and where it went.

If HR finds out about the third one they'll hit the roof big time and the immediate manager will feel pressured to do something about it. Next comes a strongly worded email regarding appropriate use of the notice board.

That's a hypothetical situation, completely made up, but does anyone think that isn't roughly what would happen in a big business or government situation?

Now for the average worker, well most really don't care about the politics of all this. They intend no harm to anyone and have a broad "you do you" view of the world but they'll quickly spot inconsistency and that's dynamite when it comes to keeping the team happy. If the perception is that management promises are hollow, or that there's clear bias toward or against some individual or group, then what comes next is conflict.

If business is going to take this sort of thing on well then sure but it needs to be real and it needs to be consistent. It falls flat big time when there's constant preaching about one group meanwhile someone else is frog marched out the door for being mildly autistic and someone else is mocked for being short. Etc. If you're going to preach high standards then uphold them.

 

[wayneL]

We

Fully agree.

What I do see issues with however is the nature of the response to that and, in the context of workers in large organisations, consistency.

I've always worked in large organisations, small business may well be different I don't really know, but in my experience nobody in a workplace objects to genuine efforts to support someone in difficulty, to stamp out prejudice against a particular group and things like that. I can't recall a single incident where anyone even muttered a word of objection.

What does cause trouble and which can escalate badly however is if either there's a perception of bias and inconsistency with who's assisted and who's not or, even worse, that the promise is shown to be nothing more than meaningless words and falls flat the moment anyone tries to call upon it.

One situation I'm aware of involved the employer's HR department putting up an abundance of anti-bullying posters, holding meetings on the subject and so on. All sounds great - nobody likes a bully, right?

Now guess what happened at that very same organisation when allegations were made, by multiple employees, of bullying from the same individual? Allegations that were ultimately substantiated when unions took the matter to the Industrial Commission.

Yep, you guessed it, HR backed the bully to the hilt and ultimately managed out all who complained. So much for all those posters and meetings, pity it was just hot air.

That one happened in the public service. Source = I've friends who work in the same department and the basic story's pretty well known locally due to the actions of unions and so on. Happened some years ago now.

More generically and this one's hypothetical but consider the following scenario:

Large organisation either business or government.

Same company, same office and same manager for all three employees.

Employee 1 puts up a poster on a physical notice board promoting Mardi Gras.

Employee 2 puts up a poster on the same notice board promoting a male "revue" or strip show aimed at a primarily female audience.

Employee 3 puts up a poster on the same notice board promoting some one-off event at a nearby strip club which, to clarify, is female performers and aimed at a primarily male audience.

All three posters are "clean" official advertising for the relevant events and do not show nudity.

Now what happens?

I'll suggest that the first one won't be touched and will be left well alone. Odds are it'll still be up a month after the event's occurred.

The second will quietly "disappear" and nobody will admit to knowing what happened. It'll remain an unresolved mystery as to who took it down and where it went.

If HR finds out about the third one they'll hit the roof big time and the immediate manager will feel pressured to do something about it. Next comes a strongly worded email regarding appropriate use of the notice board.

That's a hypothetical situation, completely made up, but does anyone think that isn't roughly what would happen in a big business or government situation?

Now for the average worker, well most really don't care about the politics of all this. They intend no harm to anyone and have a broad "you do you" view of the world but they'll quickly spot inconsistency and that's dynamite when it comes to keeping the team happy. If the perception is that management promises are hollow, or that there's clear bias toward or against some individual or group, then what comes next is conflict.

If business is going to take this sort of thing on well then sure but it needs to be real and it needs to be consistent. It falls flat big time when there's constant preaching about one group meanwhile someone else is frog marched out the door for being mildly autistic and someone else is mocked for being short. Etc. If you're going to preach high standards then uphold them.

Well, it's that famous snippet from Animal Farm, innit?