ASF spelling and grammar lessons

[wayneL]

I guess it came about from a time just before then when everyone started getting home computers and were only able to use 4 fingers to type slowly. So any kind of abbreviated spelling aided their typing.

But the "of" spelling for "uv" is a classic native mistake, going by the sounding out of the syllable.

I've seen the wud and shud contractions.

It seems you are making excuses, rather than holding out for better (IOW correct) standards.

 

[hja]

It seems you are making excuses, rather than holding out for better (IOW correct) standards.

I'm not sure what you mean by "excuses" but it is well known by linguists that this type of mistake is a native one and is due to spelling by sounds. It's not a grammatical error in the sense that people are intending for a meaning other than what is implied by the correct contraction.

 

[wayneL]

I'm not sure what you mean by "excuses" but it is well known by linguists that this type of mistake is a native one and is due to spelling by sounds. It's not a grammatical error in the sense that people are intending for a meaning other than what is implied by the correct contraction.

Everybody knows that the English language is not spelt phonetically, hence reading English is in many respects akin to those languages whose written languages are pictographical, eg Chinese and Japanese.

I read for the longest time via recognizing the shape of the words rather than the spelling, because of poor eyesight. Hence misspelling, even if phonetically correct (though orthographically incorrect) causes hiccoughs and lack of flow.

Most readers read the same way. Ergo, incorrect spelling not only has phonetic implications (or not, as the case may be), but also comprehensive implications.

E.G. Mistakes of their, there and they're cause interruptions of flow and comprehension.

'Linguists' may document these absurd mistakes, but that does not make them any less absurd.

 

[Julia]

Then there's ceremony, frequently pronounced on the ABC at least in a very peculiar way that I don't know how to reproduce in letters. They seem to break it up into four separately pronounced syllables or something.

And 'bowl' which I'd pronounce 'boll', yet they manage to make it sound like two syllables ' 'bow-ell'.

My recall of when the deterioration in spelling and pronunciation occurred is when some bright spark decided neither were really important and 'communication' was all that mattered. Then there was the 'whole word' and 'whole sentence' recognition thing, and finally now there's a reversion to actually teaching spelling and grammar.
They'll have to re-educate the teachers, however, before this will be too successful.

 

[hja]

Everybody knows that the English language is not spelt phonetically, hence reading English is in many respects akin to those languages whose written languages are pictographical, eg Chinese and Japanese.

I read for the longest time via recognizing the shape of the words rather than the spelling, because of poor eyesight. Hence misspelling, even if phonetically correct (though orthographically incorrect) causes hiccoughs and lack of flow.

Most readers read the same way. Ergo, incorrect spelling not only has phonetic implications (or not, as the case may be), but also comprehensive implications.

E.G. Mistakes of their, there and they're cause interruptions of flow and comprehension.

'Linguists' may document these absurd mistakes, but that does not make them any less absurd.

My point was, those words are being spelt by "sound".

Chinese is not based on anything phonetic so English is nothing like Chinese in that sense; English has a strong phonetic aspect, even with all its exceptions and orthographic legacies.

There, their, they're are all homophones so natives would tend to confuse one seplling for another but these mistakes would not affect meaning. Again, this boils down to spelling according to how something sounds.

 

[wayneL]

My point was, those words are being spelt by "sound".

Of course they are. But that does not in any way condone the mistake.

Chinese is not based on anything phonetic so English is nothing like Chinese in that sense; English has a strong phonetic aspect, even with all its exceptions and orthographic legacies.

There is a phonetic 'legacy' as you call it, but in English, unlike other European languages, phonetic spelling is incorrect and will lead the speaker astray due to the extensive borrowing of word, spelling and pronunciation from other languages.

There, their, they're are all homophones so natives would tend to confuse one seplling for another but these mistakes would not affect meaning. Again, this boils down to spelling according to how something sounds.

Homophonically confusing yes, but grammatically unambiguous, which alleviates the homophenic confusion. Grammatical/contextual considerations clarify which is to be used.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

That's a whole nuther thing.

A-whole-nother thing. LOL

A whole other thing. Bit better.

A different thing altogether.

 

[todster]

Everybody knows that the English language is not spelt phonetically, hence reading English is in many respects akin to those languages whose written languages are pictographical, eg Chinese and Japanese.

I read for the longest time via recognizing the shape of the words rather than the spelling, because of poor eyesight. Hence misspelling, even if phonetically correct (though orthographically incorrect) causes hiccoughs and lack of flow.

Most readers read the same way. Ergo, incorrect spelling not only has phonetic implications (or not, as the case may be), but also comprehensive implications.

E.G. Mistakes of their, there and they're cause interruptions of flow and comprehension.

'Linguists' may document these absurd mistakes, but that does not make them any less absurd.

And if you are that f king boring you can be a moderator like me and spend your life here lol

 

[wayneL]

And if you are that f king boring you can be a moderator like me and spend your life here lol

Or you can just be an @sshole... The choices are endless.

 

[johenmo]

Linguists see language as evolving. English has done that - look at texts written in the 1600's or 1700's. So it is natural that words change, in terms of spelling, pronunciation & meaning over extended periods of time - not necessarily all at the same time. Our family are grammar nazis (the term is in urban language now) and strongly dislike bad spelling etc..

We spent quite a few years living in NZ and the language has evolved to have words that sound the same & one can have quite strong debates about the "true" way to pronounce these words. "Hear/Here vs. Hair/Hare" All 4 words have the same sound to many people in the south island.

Many of these changes are learned. A couple of particular items is the replacement of "-ing" with "-ink" and "th" with "ff" (assuming it's double f). So nothing becomes nuffink and thing becomes fink. This occurs to the extent that a couple of generations later it's written as "fink", though the sentence obviously implies it is "think". This example is something I have observed first-hand.

And this does show up with teachers - my eldest got into trouble at age 11 correcting her teacher. The eldest went to do linguistics & then speech pathology, so it must be genetic! And it does concern me that those who have a responsibility to shape and help improve don't have the skills themselves. A product of the swing away to a more feel-good style of learning.

I am a reasonably good at spelling, and have reasonable grammar skills but my understanding of grammar is mediocre. Grammar is something that needs to be taught but would face much opposition.

 

[burglar]

Or you can just be an @sshole... The choices are endless.

I like "a$$bandit" but in the end I chose "burglar"!

 

[Julia]

We spent quite a few years living in NZ and the language has evolved to have words that sound the same & one can have quite strong debates about the "true" way to pronounce these words. "Hear/Here vs. Hair/Hare" All 4 words have the same sound to many people in the south island.

I grew up in the SI of NZ and just can't agree that the above words have anything like the same sound.

Many of these changes are learned. A couple of particular items is the replacement of "-ing" with "-ink" and "th" with "ff" (assuming it's double f). So nothing becomes nuffink and thing becomes fink. This occurs to the extent that a couple of generations later it's written as "fink", though the sentence obviously implies it is "think". This example is something I have observed first-hand.

I wouldn't dispute that you have observed this, but I do dispute that it's something that's progressive which is what you're implying with the suggestion that 'a couple of generations later' it is written as such.

I have only ever heard these variations used by people who have had limited education and commonly those from some regions in the UK where it represents the local patois.
I've never actually known anyone who used either of these pretty ghastly pronunciations.

And it does concern me that those who have a responsibility to shape and help improve don't have the skills themselves.

Agree. Some of the teachers reflect their own woeful education.

 

[kincella]

are we allowed to use the term...wankers on ASF ?
for me, it is similar to, or like the term .... bludgers
ie, when wanking or bludging....they are not working

I recently called the AWU....the australian wankers union....
and my post was moderated, for same on another forum
I also used the same description for FWA
ie, as fair wankers australia

back to you, the speech police for your response
which will it be, ? or or

 

[wayneL]

I grew up in the SI of NZ and just can't agree that the above words have anything like the same sound.

But to a foreign ear they are quite similar. I have had some comical conversations with myself here.

A client has a horse called "Beer"; I think to myself that is a funny name, even for a horse. I find out months later it's "Bear". Another lady introduced herself as ******* Beard; again I think that's a rather unusual name. I referred to her as that for at least eighteen months until I tried to find her land-line number in the phone book... It took me a while to figure out I should be looking for ****** BAIRD. LOL

When we say eggs here, most people hear AGGS, coupled with a puzzled expression.

Lastly, the Azaria Chamberlain decision was all over the news yesterday, but I was wondering where the hell "Ears Rock" is.

 

[johenmo]

I grew up in the SI of NZ and just can't agree that the above words have anything like the same sound.

It's not everyone, of course but a surprising amount who do think that. In one case at work, I got a dictionary to show how the words were pronounced differently. A couple of people were genuinely surprised. And a local hairdressing salon was called "Hair-O" - which we took to be "hero" because hair-o made no sense. Willing to be corrected if we misinterpreted that. And as WayneL says Beer & bear - first time at kindy we heard "we're going on a beer hunt" it made us chuckle. I never heard it much in the NI but they are a different breed up there (lived in both isles). Maybe it is more obvious to a foreign ear. Just like the Oz accent is so broad in some areas that it sounds like they're speaking through their noses.

I wouldn't dispute that you have observed this, but I do dispute that it's something that's progressive which is what you're implying with the suggestion that 'a couple of generations later' it is written as such.

I have only ever heard these variations used by people who have had limited education and commonly those from some regions in the UK where it represents the local patois.
I've never actually known anyone who used either of these pretty ghastly pronunciations.

I'm quoting from a card written by my nephew's son, & my sister says it too - so that's 3 generations & it was that the word was written by a 9 year old that really surprised me. My speech path daughter said it's more common than people think & it's learned, not pathological/medical in nature. Essentially if that's what they are exposed to most of the time then that's what they learn. And this is sort of how new dialects spring up i.e. it becomes the local patois, as you say. It's also spoken by her daughters & some of their kids - whereas the rest of us siblings & our kids don't use the ff or ink sounds.

As for education - I agree less education increases the likelihood of mispronunciation, but the number of people i hear say "pre-formance" instead of performance is staggering - with master level degrees, as well. But most of them have engineering and science qualifications, so maybe that says something!

One of the most interesting comments in NZ was lady who was proud that her daughter at primary school was a "bowel monitor". Took the other half a few more sentences to get in context- she said "bell monitor". Never heard bell pronounced as differently as that so I consider that a one-off.

 

[CanOz]

LOL, poor Kiwis! Very funny thread, I love to hear local dialects and especially the NZ ones!

CanOz

 

[Calliope]

One of the most interesting comments in NZ was lady who was proud that her daughter at primary school was a "bowel monitor". Took the other half a few more sentences to get in context- she said "bell monitor". Never heard bell pronounced as differently as that so I consider that a one-off.

I doubt that the word "bell" would have sounded like "bowel". She was probably saying "bll" i.e. 'bell" without the vowel.

 

[Calliope]

Standards have dropped. Gives the saying 'he only had an 8th grade education' a whole new meaning.

This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society
and Library in Salina , and reprinted by the Salina Journal.

8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895

Grammar (Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters.
2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph
4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,''play,' and 'run.'
5. Define case; illustrate each case.
6 What is punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of punctuation.
7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.


Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. Deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. Wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. For tare?
4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000.. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. Coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft.. Long at $20 per metre?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt


U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.


Orthography (Time, one hour)
[Do we even know what this is??]
1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthography, etymology, syllabication
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' (HUH?)
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks
and by syllabication.


Geography (Time, one hour)
1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of North America
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver , Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each..
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.

Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.

 

[Glen48]

Arithmetic Q 7 $20 a meter??? Did they have metrics then or use both.
I doubt many would pass that today.

 

[johenmo]

I doubt that the word "bell" would have sounded like "bowel". She was probably saying "bll" i.e. 'bell" without the vowel.

Well, doubt no more. Two of us heard it and we both heard the same thing. The only time I'be heard such a thing so it's a one-off. Kiwis are more "bill" - a becomes e, e becomes i and i becomes u is a rough rule. That's why they hear (or is that here or hare or hair!!) Aussies say the number "sex".