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Animal rights and ethical food production

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Breakfast / lunch yesterday.

Wife had vegan waffles, and I had sliders made with “impossible burger”
 

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Dinner last night.

I had another version of vegan chicken wings and we shared a vegan pizza with soy based cheese.
 

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Value Collector said:
I think the biggest shock I had as I slowly became vegan, was realizing that the flavors I liked in the meat dishes I used to to eat, actually came from the vegan ingredients.
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Yeah think you are right. Meat is pretty tasteless really and needs some sort of sauce , gravy spices and herbs to make it interesting.

I think most of us who come from a "meat and three veg" background have been indoctrinated by our parents that meat is an essential part of our diet, but things are changing.
 
Value Collector said:
What evidence do have that suggests a chicken doesn’t have enough self awareness to experience pain and suffering?

You seem to put them on the same level as an unthinking robot, I don’t think that view is based on science.

Do say only humans have self awareness is silly.

I think people need to see the graphic videos, because people act like a cow is transformed into a steak by some magical process, it was watching the graphic videos that changed my mind.
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I did not say “a chicken doesn’t have enough self awareness to experience pain and suffering?” I didn’t even suggest it?


To suggest chickens have the same level of self- awareness as a human is silly.


They definitely experience pain, but they experience pain and suffer differently to humans. Suffering is another example of words that have strong human sub connotation/subtext, to me anyway. To me part of suffering is dreading the future and remembering the past. I know chickens have some kind of memory of negative experiences, but I highly doubt there is an emotional response.



I agree, I wish people would watch, but the fact is they don’t. My wife and most of my immediate family flat out refused to watch them. It is a fact of life that some people are happy in their ignorance, even if they know they are blissfully ignorant. My mum is one of these. She works for DCP and deals with some horrific stuff, but when it comes to eating animals she is blissfully ignorant by choice.
 
Haha I am on site at the moment at the end of a long swing of the same food everrrrrrrrrrrrry day. I dont care meat or vegan, I just need some good food!!!!!!
 
Value Collector said:
I think the biggest shock I had as I slowly became vegan, was realizing that the flavors I liked in the meat dishes I used to to eat, actually came from the vegan ingredients.

Eg, I used to love spicy chicken wings, today in Las Vegas I had roasted cauliflower cooked in hot wing sauce, man did it hit the spot.

My wife had spaghetti with vegan meat balls, turns out all the flavor comes from the pasta and sauce, beef is just basically a filler, because these vegan meat balls taste the same.

At Disney the other day I had vegan bangers and mash, again the meat in he sausage does nothing, because all the flavor comes from the mash and mushroom gravy.

Check out photos of the meals I mentioned above.

All are 100% vegan, and 100% delicious.
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Yea, I had vegan meals now and then when helping my dad with some work at the temple.

It tastes really nice. Not bland or anything.

Been paying attention to the meat diet in general. From that doco Food.inc I was surprised to hear the amount of water it takes to feed cattles etc.

World food supplies can't keep up at projected population. So it'll either be continued famine, war, starvation... or we could mixed up and eat less meat product, consume less milk.. switch to more plant product.

Here's a great interview where the guy explain the inefficiency of growing all the plant feed to feed livestocks so that we then consume the same protein through their meat.

Not to mention all the antibiotics, cruelty to animal.

 
luutzu said:
Been paying attention to the meat diet in general. From that doco Food.inc I was surprised to hear the amount of water it takes to feed cattles etc.
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It takes a lot of water to irrigate crops too.

But I'm sure VC has some stats that prove it's more water efficient to grow crops that water cattle/sheep/chickens.
 
SirRumpole said:
It takes a lot of water to irrigate crops too.

But I'm sure VC has some stats that prove it's more water efficient to grow crops that water cattle/sheep/chickens.
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Livestocks also drink. So the plant feeds takes up water, fed to the livestocks who also drank water.

I think they say it takes some 50 [?] gallon of water to produce 1L of milk.

On top of that, animal grazing damages the surroundings. There's pollution runoffs; dead grass and trees; methane etc.

To reduce land, breed more per m2; that get them sick and die... to reduce that they fed them crapload of anti-biotics. That get pass onto us consumers... we get more immune to typical viruses and so it's just a walking pandemic waiting for happen.

The argument the guy in that video made make a lot of sense.

That there are currently hundreds of millions of people who are food insecure. i.e. going to bed hungry. There isn't enough land or resources to possibly grow all the feed to grow livestocks to feed the world's population.

But if, instead of growing feed for animals to then feed us richer folks... the whole world could be fed with enough protein if the land and resources devoting to feeds are diverted to feeding human directly.

I don't think we all need to go strictly vegan. Just know that there are alternatives and it might be better for us and the environment.

Having said all that, I'm still eating meat though. Will try to switch... very, very slowly.
 
Humid said:
Why does everything you make imitate meat
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It doesn’t, what I showed was just a sample of things I have been trying while traveling.

But, I ate meat for 36 years, I didn’t become vegan because I hated the meals I was eating, I became vegan because I didn’t like the process behind creating some of the ingredients.

So if I can have a pizza with soy cheese, or bangers and mash without cattle flesh etc I am a happy chappy.
 
fiftyeight said:
I did not say “a chicken doesn’t have enough self awareness to experience pain and suffering?” I didn’t even suggest it?


To suggest chickens have the same level of self- awareness as a human is silly.


They definitely experience pain, but they experience pain and suffer differently to humans. Suffering is another example of words that have strong human sub connotation/subtext, to me anyway. To me part of suffering is dreading the future and remembering the past. I know chickens have some kind of memory of negative experiences, but I highly doubt there is an emotional response.



I agree, I wish people would watch, but the fact is they don’t. My wife and most of my immediate family flat out refused to watch them. It is a fact of life that some people are happy in their ignorance, even if they know they are blissfully ignorant. My mum is one of these. She works for DCP and deals with some horrific stuff, but when it comes to eating animals she is blissfully ignorant by choice.
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They don’t need to have exactly the same self awareness as humans to disserve he basic dignity of not forcing them through the slaughter process.

I think their awareness would be much closer to humans than you give them credit for.

I am Sure they don’t have the same intelligence as humans, but that’s a separate thing to self awareness and ability to suffer.

Suffering is not all about dread and remembering the past, It can be totally in the moment, I have put people through resistance to introgation training, where we restrict their ability to move around, and within a few hours they are in the hurt locker suffering, they don’t need high intelligence to suffer, they aren’t thinking about the past or the future, just wanting to get out of he stress position they are in at that moment.
 
SirRumpole said:
It takes a lot of water to irrigate crops too.

But I'm sure VC has some stats that prove it's more water efficient to grow crops that water cattle/sheep/chickens.
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Think about this.

You have to feed a cow 10 bowls of corn to get the same amount of calories of meat as you would get from eating just 1 bowl of corn yourself.

So, we are crops huge amounts of crops to feed to animals in feedlots, plus the animals drink loads of water, plus huge amounts of water are used and polluted to wash away their poop.

The simple stat is that there are 70 Billion animals living in factory farms, consuming vast quantities of crops.

If the cropland used to feed the animals, was used instead to crop plant based food for humans we could survive using a lot less land, water, fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, fuel and antibiotics.
 
Value Collector said:
Think about this.

You have to feed a cow 10 bowls of corn to get the same amount of calories of meat as you would get from eating just 1 bowl of corn yourself.

So, we are crops huge amounts of crops to feed to animals in feedlots, plus the animals drink loads of water, plus huge amounts of water are used and polluted to wash away their poop.
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'Cows eat a mixture of grass hay, alfalfa hay, grains as well as corn and grass silage. Grass and alfalfa are dried to make hay. Farmers grow a lot of grass and corn at their farm, so even BC's local dairycows are eating local!'

It looks as if a human would in fact have to eat: 2 bowls of grass hay, 2 bowls of alfalpa hay, 2 bowls of grain, 2 bowls of corn and 2 bowls of grass silage. You could of course feed your cow with 10 bowls of corn though it would, like chickens, end up yellow.

The manure is used as a rich fertilizer, an efficient fuel and biogas producer, a useful building material, a raw material for paper making, an insect repellent, and a disinfectant. Cow dung "chips" are used in throwing contests and cow pie bingo is played as a game.
 
Value Collector said:
It doesn’t, what I showed was just a sample of things I have been trying while traveling.

But, I ate meat for 36 years, I didn’t become vegan because I hated the meals I was eating, I became vegan because I didn’t like the process behind creating some of the ingredients.

So if I can have a pizza with soy cheese, or bangers and mash without cattle flesh etc I am a happy chappy.
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Fair enough
But I never really get the seafood and cheese bit and my triple cream Brie with nitrate free ham wood fire pizza is not replaceable
 
Humid said:
Fair enough
But I never really get the seafood and cheese bit and my triple cream Brie with nitrate free ham wood fire pizza is not replaceable
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Cheese- there are plenty of good plant based pizza cheeses now that don’t require slaughtering calves and their mothers.

Pig flesh - did you watch any of the “dominion” video I linked above, if not watch the first 5 minutes or so and you will see it if all the animal farming, pig farming is probably the most horrible.

Seafood - even if the target species is low on the self awareness and ability to suffer scale, “by catch” is a major issues, causing a lot of higher animals such as dolphins, seals, turtles, sharks etc etc to suffer, so Besides farmed mussels and oysters Which have no brains and whose farming is low impact, I avoid seafood.

———-
I think the big difference between you and I, is you look at the end product, in its neat packaged form and think “I would be crazy to give that up”, where as I look at the process, and I think “I would be crazy to eat that”
 
noirua said:
'Cows eat a mixture of grass hay, alfalfa hay, grains as well as corn and grass silage. Grass and alfalfa are dried to make hay. Farmers grow a lot of grass and corn at their farm, so even BC's local dairycows are eating local!'

It looks as if a human would in fact have to eat: 2 bowls of grass hay, 2 bowls of alfalpa hay, 2 bowls of grain, 2 bowls of corn and 2 bowls of grass silage. You could of course feed your cow with 10 bowls of corn though it would, like chickens, end up yellow.

The manure is used as a rich fertilizer, an efficient fuel and biogas producer, a useful building material, a raw material for paper making, an insect repellent, and a disinfectant. Cow dung "chips" are used in throwing contests and cow pie bingo is played as a game.
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All the feed you mentioned has an impact on the environment to produce.

It uses land, water, fertilizer, insecticide etc etc to produce, all those resources would be better used to make human food directly.

Did you ever see the simpsons episode where homer attempts to make money selling bacon fat?

Bart points out that homer only got 14 cents for the fat, But Marge had paid several dollars for the bacon.

That’s like your arrguement of using cow manure as a fertilizer, what you are getting back from the manure is much less than what was stripped out by creating the cattle feed.

Also animal manure from farms is a major source of water pollution and human disease.
 
The amounts of waste are so huge they soak into ground water, and spill over and run off into water ways.

If this was human waste, it would be illegal, no farmers treat their waste to the standards that should be required.

 
This is the type of factory farming I agree with.




But factory farming is a lot different once it involves animals.

 
noirua said:
'Cows eat a mixture of grass hay, alfalfa hay, grains as well as corn and grass silage. Grass and alfalfa are dried to make hay. Farmers grow a lot of grass and corn at their farm, so even BC's local dairycows are eating local!'

It looks as if a human would in fact have to eat: 2 bowls of grass hay, 2 bowls of alfalpa hay, 2 bowls of grain, 2 bowls of corn and 2 bowls of grass silage. You could of course feed your cow with 10 bowls of corn though it would, like chickens, end up yellow.

The manure is used as a rich fertilizer, an efficient fuel and biogas producer, a useful building material, a raw material for paper making, an insect repellent, and a disinfectant. Cow dung "chips" are used in throwing contests and cow pie bingo is played as a game.
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yea, but how many of us get to enjoy the cow dung throwing contests and bingos? :D
 
luutzu said:
yea, but how many of us get to enjoy the cow dung throwing contests and bingos? :D
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Haha, as kid on my uncles dairy farm we used to play a game of chance where we jump on the cow pats, if you were lucky they were dry solid, if you were unlucky the centre was still green liquid and you sank into it, if you were really unlucky you slip and put your ass into it.

As fun as such dare games are, the unspoken horrors that happen there make such games, and the milk and cheese, seem disgustingly trivial.

Bottle feeding the calves seemed fun to a kid, until you realize that the reason you are bottle feeding them is because they have been ripped from their mother, and on Tuesday they will be thrown on a truck to the slaughter house.

But hey, people like cheese right?
 
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