Animal rights and ethical food production

[Humid]

I have lost about 5kg of fat, I am not saying you can’t put on weight being vegan, you definately can.

But for me, I found that after dinner of lots of meat like I used to eat, I would feel sluggish for the rest of the night.

But, since cutting out meat It’s like my body digests my dinners easier, so I have more energy in the evenings and tend to take my dog for a walk or be active in other ways rather than just sit in front of the tv.

This flows on to other benefits to, having the energy to exercise etc increases consentration, and I find I read better than I used to at night.

What does your dog eat?

 

[Value Collector]

What does your dog eat?

Dog food, and certain left overs from our meals.

Are you asking if my dog is vegan?

The answer is no, dogs are different from primates, humans thrive on a vegan diet, I don’t think dogs would, but the food I feed her is made from a combination of plant based ingredients and fish protein and oil, She does really good on it, I would be open to trialing food made from more vegan ingredients.

I am also open to having vegan pets in the future, eg a goat.

 

[Humid]

I work away a lot and stay in camps where all food is put on for you and I mean lots of food.
I do notice my eating habits change to a more vegetables and salads and less meat.
It’s easy when someone’s doing the cooking for you

 

[fiftyeight]

Is there a “respectful” way to kill something that doesn’t want to die?

I don’t think it is nit picking, he might be cutting the animals throat, now he might be well intentioned and try to do it quickly etc, but can’t imagine it being very pleasent for the animal.

If we admit that animals feel pain, can suffer etc in similar ways to humans, why wouldn’t we apply similar moral standards?

Yeah it is nit picky. Very. If the animal suffers during slaughter, I hardly find that respectful or caring so your point is moot.

I did not say that animals experience pain in a similar way to humans.

 

[qldfrog]

For anyone interested, Lind and Miko are the two steers we have currently,
Yes i named these
i do not name the chooks but do for the rooster.
I can hardly bear the hypocrisy in the selfishness of being vegetarian or reducing meat and yet having a purely leisure dog or cat.my own sister an example
Farm dogs or guide dogs are obviously excluded.

This is the plague of this century, dumbed down arguments force fed to believe in Black and White positions, based on limited sciences and selected research.
Does anyone believe we can grow anything in our australian sheeps and cattle ranches or in mountains area?Do you have any idea of the soil benefitting of proper cattle land use?
Against burn off if you let it vacants?
Are you ready to cut an extra 1/10 of ranches surface from the amazon or borneo to grow the equivalent in vegetarian protein, and then where do you get the petrol for that?
I hate industrial food production and so understand a limited consumption to quality product, but i hate fanatics
Anyway, no point reasoning with jihadists, must be so easy mentally to follow the flow and the ambient brainwash and propaganda
Let's watch The project and ABC to get informed..
Qldfrog,
Gilet jaune

 

[Value Collector]

Yeah it is nit picky. Very. If the animal suffers during slaughter, I hardly find that respectful or caring so your point is moot.

I did not say that animals experience pain in a similar way to humans.

Do you think they don’t suffer pain in a similar way to humans?

I ask you again, Is there anyway you can kill an animal that doesn’t want to die respectfully?

There are rapists that drug their victims, before they rape and kill them, the victim never suffers and doesn’t even know they were raped and killed, is that respectful murder?

 

[Value Collector]

For anyone interested, Lind and Miko are the two steers we have currently,
Yes i named these
i do not name the chooks but do for the rooster.
I can hardly bear the hypocrisy in the selfishness of being vegetarian or reducing meat and yet having a purely leisure dog or cat.my own sister an example
Farm dogs or guide dogs are obviously excluded.

This is the plague of this century, dumbed down arguments force fed to believe in Black and White positions, based on limited sciences and selected research.
Does anyone believe we can grow anything in our australian sheeps and cattle ranches or in mountains area?Do you have any idea of the soil benefitting of proper cattle land use?
Against burn off if you let it vacants?
Are you ready to cut an extra 1/10 of ranches surface from the amazon or borneo to grow the equivalent in vegetarian protein, and then where do you get the petrol for that?
I hate industrial food production and so understand a limited consumption to quality product, but i hate fanatics
Anyway, no point reasoning with jihadists, must be so easy mentally to follow the flow and the ambient brainwash and propaganda
Let's watch The project and ABC to get informed..
Qldfrog,
Gilet jaune

How is it hypocrisy for a vegan to have a pet.

I actually rescued my dog from the pound, look after her well and don’t plan to use her for her body when she reaches a certain weight.

I am against puppy farms etc, but can’t see a problem with giving a home to an animal in need.

As far as Australia’s sheep and cattle stations, a lot are on marginal land that could just be returned to nature, as I said vegan diets require less farm land, so the marginal land could be let go.

If we stopped feeding 70 Billion animals in factory farms, we would have no problem feeding the 7 billion humans with a fraction of the existing crop lands.

 

[Value Collector]

You think vegans are extremists, yet you can look at “Lind and Miko” and see no problem with cutting their throats when you get hungry, rather than just eating something else.

I think the only difference is that If I looked at Lind and Miko in the eyes, I would see them as “someone” to be respected, you see them as “something” to be used.

Yet you say I am extreme, just because I would rather have baked beans and avocado on toast for breakfast, rather than an animal that screamed and struggled for its life.

 

[Value Collector]

Yeah, it’s vegans that believe the propaganda

 

[SirRumpole]

You think vegans are extremists, yet you can look at “Lind and Miko” and see no problem with cutting their throats when you get hungry, rather than just eating something else.

I think the only difference is that If I looked at Lind and Miko in the eyes, I would see them as “someone” to be respected, you see them as “something” to be used.

Yet you say I am extreme, just because I would rather have baked beans and avocado on toast for breakfast, rather than an animal that screamed and struggled for its life.

Baked beans on toast loses its magic after a while.

But I agree with your underlying view. Land clearing for grazing to feed increasing population is killing the environment .

 

[fiftyeight]

Do you think they don’t suffer pain in a similar way to humans?

I ask you again, Is there anyway you can kill an animal that doesn’t want to die respectfully?

There are rapists that drug their victims, before they rape and kill them, the victim never suffers and doesn’t even know they were raped and killed, is that respectful murder?

I am not sure animals do 'want' anything. I am yet to be convinced that an animals consciousness is similar enough to humans to apply the same moral code. I am not saying they dont have any consciouness at all, but currently (I am open to change, just like I did with my diet) I think it is different enough to apply a different moral code. It still requires a moral code, again hence why I have changed my diet.

Really??? That last 'question' does not even need a response.

Its funny that your posts in this thread played a large part in me going down this rabbit hole, yet because I arrived at different conclusion to you, it seems to be an issue.

If your goal is reduce the consumption of meat or at least reduce the consumption of unethical meat you are going about it the wrong way and are providing ammo to the vegan/vegetarian bashers

 

[Value Collector]

I am not sure animals do 'want' anything. I am yet to be convinced that an animals consciousness is similar enough to humans to apply the same moral code. I am not saying they dont have any consciouness at all, but currently (I am open to change, just like I did with my diet) I think it is different enough to apply a different moral code. It still requires a moral code, again hence why I have changed my diet.

Really??? That last 'question' does not even need a response.

Its funny that your posts in this thread played a large part in me going down this rabbit hole, yet because I arrived at different conclusion to you, it seems to be an issue.

If your goal is reduce the consumption of meat or at least reduce the consumption of unethical meat you are going about it the wrong way and are providing ammo to the vegan/vegetarian bashers

It pretty clear to me that a pig prefers not to feel pain.

Given the choice the pig will choose to avoid pain and suffering and choose comfort.

I am totally confused by your first sentence, animals aren’t robots.

 

[ducati916]

The issue is fairly clear cut.

Do animals have rights?

If yes:

(a) where do those rights originate from; and
(b) what are those rights.

If no:

(a) ought we as humans, if meat is not a necessity, desist from killing them for food.

VC is hopelessly confused and is simply arguing from a personal bias or value.

jog on
duc

 

[fiftyeight]

It pretty clear to me that a pig prefers not to feel pain.

Given the choice the pig will choose to avoid pain and suffering and choose comfort.

I am totally confused by your first sentence, animals aren’t robots.

Animal consciousness is different enough to ours that a different moral code is required.

The words 'prefer' and 'feel' to me have human subtext/connotation, not sure that is the right way to explain what I am saying. The way 'I' prefer something or feel something is very different to the way a pig feels something.

Yes a pig will avoid pain, but a clam will also avoid negative stimuli.

 

[Value Collector]

Animal consciousness is different enough to ours that a different moral code is required.

How so?

Humans are a species of animal, what evidence is there to suggest that our consciousness is so different to the other mammals that we shouldn’t give them the very basics of our moral code. Eg I am not saying we should give them the rights to vote, just choose to eat a plant instead of using them for their bodies.

Choosing to avoid animal products isn’t the most we can do, it’s the least we can do, I really get confused when people think avoiding animal products is extreme, it’s nothing when you think about it.

 

[Value Collector]

If you want to see things from my perspective, and how vegans see the world. Take a moment to watch this video.

It’s not graphic, but it shows how vegans think, and compares it to beliefs you probably already hold.

 

[fiftyeight]

How so?

Humans are a species of animal, what evidence is there to suggest that our consciousness is so different to the other mammals that we shouldn’t give them the very basics of our moral code. Eg I am not saying we should give them the rights to vote, just choose to eat a plant instead of using them for their bodies.

Choosing to avoid animal products isn’t the most we can do, it’s the least we can do, I really get confused when people think avoiding animal products is extreme, it’s nothing when you think about it.

We are a very different species of animal. A chicken is not self-aware, it does not think about the future or the past, it may have some ‘memory’ of where food is stored but it does not make an emotional connection with the past or future.


I will give the video a watch when I have a chance. My wife has changed somewhat with me, but as most of the other videos posted were so graphic, I could not convince her to even start watching them. The gore videos serve some purpose but I feel they may just push people further in to ignorance of factory farming, based on my sample size of my wife and immediate family haha

 

[Value Collector]

We are a very different species of animal. A chicken is not self-aware, it does not think about the future or the past, it may have some ‘memory’ of where food is stored but it does not make an emotional connection with the past or future.


I will give the video a watch when I have a chance. My wife has changed somewhat with me, but as most of the other videos posted were so graphic, I could not convince her to even start watching them. The gore videos serve some purpose but I feel they may just push people further in to ignorance of factory farming, based on my sample size of my wife and immediate family haha

What evidence do have that suggests a chicken doesn’t have enough self awareness to experience pain and suffering?

You seem to put them on the same level as an unthinking robot, I don’t think that view is based on science.

Do say only humans have self awareness is silly.

I think people need to see the graphic videos, because people act like a cow is transformed into a steak by some magical process, it was watching the graphic videos that changed my mind.

 

[luutzu]

I have lost about 5kg of fat, I am not saying you can’t put on weight being vegan, you definately can.

But for me, I found that after dinner of lots of meat like I used to eat, I would feel sluggish for the rest of the night.

But, since cutting out meat It’s like my body digests my dinners easier, so I have more energy in the evenings and tend to take my dog for a walk or be active in other ways rather than just sit in front of the tv.

This flows on to other benefits to, having the energy to exercise etc increases consentration, and I find I read better than I used to at night.

Does it also made you moody and more of a pain in the backside?

But you're right though. Damn it, meat doesn't taste as good as it used to after reading your lectures.

 

[Value Collector]

meat doesn't taste as good as it used to after reading your lectures.

I think the biggest shock I had as I slowly became vegan, was realizing that the flavors I liked in the meat dishes I used to to eat, actually came from the vegan ingredients.

Eg, I used to love spicy chicken wings, today in Las Vegas I had roasted cauliflower cooked in hot wing sauce, man did it hit the spot.

My wife had spaghetti with vegan meat balls, turns out all the flavor comes from the pasta and sauce, beef is just basically a filler, because these vegan meat balls taste the same.

At Disney the other day I had vegan bangers and mash, again the meat in he sausage does nothing, because all the flavor comes from the mash and mushroom gravy.

Check out photos of the meals I mentioned above.

All are 100% vegan, and 100% delicious.