Alcohol fueled violence

bellenuit said:

I didn't catch it fully, so I may not have the full story, but I saw Bob Hawke at the cricket today downing a glass of beer in one go and appeared to be egged on by a crowd of people. He finished by throwing the empty (plastic) glass on to the field in front of him. Hardly an example of drinking responsibly.

Click to expand...

Legend At least someone is keeping Aussie larrikinism alive and well

I'm not a heavy drinker by any means, actually I basically never drink unless I'm away somewhere on holidays. That doesn't mean I never drink, but most months of the year I don't touch a drop of the stuff (always been this way). In my personal experience a lot comes down to the demographic of the crowd.

The troublemakers are heavily attracted to "cool" (or whatever the term is these days) clubs, events etc. They're there to impress their mates and/or women and that's their primary motivation. They couldn't give a damn about the music etc, it's all about getting drunk and impressing someone. This attitude doesn't end once they leave the venue, if anything it actually gets worse once they're on the street.

But go to the exact same club / pub on a different night when they're playing "uncool" music (retro etc) and there's rarely an issue. You still have the young crowd but some older ones as well. People drink, they get drunk, but those younger men with a certain attitude and out to impress wouldn't be seen there even if someone paid them and that gets rid of the trouble. Generally no problems with the same crowd on the street either.

So my basic conclusion is that there's a certain type of person, who is basically out to impress and that's it, and who couldn't give a damn about anything else. They go to whichever club, festival or other place they think is a good place to be seen at. They carry the same attitude onto the street once they leave, made worse by being more drunk and in many cases having failed to impress whoever they were trying to impress (ie they're going home alone rather than with a woman).

I've no idea how to fix it, but that's my observation. Most people don't cause problems even if they are drunk but there's a certain type of person who is going to be trouble and it comes down to their underlying attitude and reason for being out on the town in the first place.

As for nightclubs and pubs, personally I don't blame them that much. They're stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place really. Most revenue comes from drink sales but these days this has to compete against the trend of "pre drinks" and other drug use.

I can't verify this statistic, but I was told that about 76% of all alcohol sales in Australia are take away (bottle shops etc), roughly 21% in pubs, restaurants, RSL's, sporting events, music festivals etc and about 3% in nightclubs. I can't verify that, but it does seem about right to me given the truly ridiculous number of bottle shops around these days. It would be much easier to bring about solutions in pubs and clubs (ie raise the price and properly enforce RSA with no overall loss of revenue) if they weren't competing against bottle shops which already have the majority of the market and far lower costs.

Smurf1976 said:

I'm not a heavy drinker by any means, actually I basically never drink unless I'm away somewhere on holidays. That doesn't mean I never drink, but most months of the year I don't touch a drop of the stuff (always been this way). In my personal experience a lot comes down to the demographic of the crowd.

Click to expand...

Similar to this example there's a night club in Sydney called Arq. Most of the time it runs most nights targeting the heterosexual crowd. The few times I've been there on those nights can be quite scary. It's like the macho gene has been hit with adrenaline and steorids and the small bump or enjoying the eye candy is a reason for violence, or the threat of violence.

Now go on a night when they target the gay community. It's like a totally different club. Never seen anything even remotely violent. The interactions between people is just so much more clam and friendly.

Same goes for most gay bars. The only violence I've seen in 22 years of going to gay bars has involved the odd face slap a handful of times.

Smurf1976 said:

I'm not a heavy drinker by any means, actually I basically never drink unless I'm away somewhere on holidays. That doesn't mean I never drink, but most months of the year I don't touch a drop of the stuff (always been this way). In my personal experience a lot comes down to the demographic of the crowd.

The troublemakers are heavily attracted to "cool" (or whatever the term is these days) clubs, events etc. They're there to impress their mates and/or women and that's their primary motivation. They couldn't give a damn about the music etc, it's all about getting drunk and impressing someone. This attitude doesn't end once they leave the venue, if anything it actually gets worse once they're on the street.

.

Click to expand...

I grew up in mining towns in the late 60's and the 70's.
There was always a degree of drunken behaviour and fighting, in and about these towns.
However the underlying sense of fairness and decency was observed, this seems now to be forgotten.
I laughed the other day when I heard the defense of a 19year old for bashing an 80 year old, was because he had trouble controlling his temper.
I thought why doesn't he go down to the local 'bikie' clubhouse and throw his weight around. I bet he could control his temper there.
It boils down to gratuitous violence against the weak and defencless.
How an ageing society copes with that will be interesting

That's exactly it, sptrawler, its these vulnerable people that they are targeting, and this pathetic justice system of ours just allows them to continue doing so.

Where is the deterrent for these thugs?

sydboy007 said:

The few times I've been there on those nights can be quite scary. It's like the macho gene has been hit with adrenaline and steorids and the small bump or enjoying the eye candy is a reason for violence, or the threat of violence.

Now go on a night when they target the gay community. It's like a totally different club. Never seen anything even remotely violent.

Click to expand...

At the risk of opening a bigger can of worms, the issue with drunken violence is pretty much an issue of young, immature, heterosexual males of a certain personality type. The girls do encourage them however so are not without blame.

It doesn't seem to be an issue in the gay community, at least not from what I've seen. It's an extremely different atmosphere that's for sure.

Smurf1976 said:

At the risk of opening a bigger can of worms, the issue with drunken violence is pretty much an issue of young, immature, heterosexual males of a certain personality type. The girls do encourage them however so are not without blame.

It doesn't seem to be an issue in the gay community, at least not from what I've seen. It's an extremely different atmosphere that's for sure.

Click to expand...

The issue is young immature males picking their targets.
They are hitting from behind, they are picking light weight targets and they are using alcohol as an excuse for gutless behaviour.
How do you teach a nasty, gutless, wimp that they shouldn't do that?

Appart from giving him a good thrashing,lol

sptrawler said:

The issue is young immature males picking their targets.
They are hitting from behind, they are picking light weight targets and they are using alcohol as an excuse for gutless behaviour.

Click to expand...

I think there's two distinct types of the problem actually.

1. The "king hit" issue you refer to.

2. More conventional fights in the general vicinity of licensed premises (either inside or on nearby streets).

The former is grabbing most of the media attention at the moment and I do agree that it's a totally unacceptable situation. But, whilst I don't have figures, I'd be very much surprised if the latter scenario didn't account for a far greater number of assaults in total since it's fairly routine in some particular areas.

For every victim who dies and makes the news, there's probably another 1000+ who don't die and who don't receive such attention. But they're still a victim of an assault and even though it's of a different type it still comes back to alcohol at least partly.

But how to deal with the attacks on "weak targets" simply walking down the street I have no idea. Other than by means of deterring them in the first place by whatever means, there doesn't seem to be an easy fix. I mean there's a lot of streets and a lot of people walking on them. Unfortunately I can see this ending up with a debate about "the right to carry a gun" or something of that nature in self defence. That's a very slippery slope.....

It has come to the point now where a majority know someone that has been hit or even worse, killed -- the last one has brain damage.

The talk is, you can travel the world, but come to Australia, and you will be King Hit.
We lost a few tourists too with this King Hit, travelling alone

These criminals are walking the streets doing as they please, and there needs to be an end to this.

Tink said:

It has come to the point now where a majority know someone that has been hit or even worse, killed -- the last one has brain damage.

The talk is, you can travel the world, but come to Australia, and you will be King Hit.
We lost a few tourists too with this King Hit, travelling alone

These criminals are walking the streets doing as they please, and there needs to be an end to this.

Click to expand...

So rather than just hyperbole, what do you actually suggest we do?

Tink said:

It has come to the point now where a majority know someone that has been hit or even worse, killed -- the last one has brain damage.

The talk is, you can travel the world, but come to Australia, and you will be King Hit.
We lost a few tourists too with this King Hit, travelling alone

These criminals are walking the streets doing as they please, and there needs to be an end to this.

Click to expand...

prawn_86 said:

So rather than just hyperbole, what do you actually suggest we do?

Click to expand...

OK, I will stick my neck out on this.

All venues should enforce license scanning on entry, most clubs in NSW do this already. There is no use doing scanning without having clear CCTV footage as well. It would make it easy to put a name to the face at such venues.

Next, Police actually have to take action and arrest and charge any perpetrators. The case when I witnessed that king hit Police made no attempt to chase down or pick up the perps even after I told them where they went and what they looked like. In the old days the Police would take you in their patrol car and have you identify the perp walking around the streets.

Police visibility in popular night spots is a deterrent also. I lived in Manly NSW for nearly 30 years of my life and they talked about beat Police on the ground for as many years. Everytime a new Council or a new government got elected they promised Police Walking the beat. I rarely ever saw them, particularly in Manly, they lied in order to get the anti violence vote.

Then you need mandatory harsh sentences. Anybody who commits such a crime and causes death must get a mandatory 20 year sentence. No ifs, no buts, no good behavior, no good character discount. You kill someone then there is a minimum 20 years sentence, judges must hand this down, no negotiation.

The current alcohol laws for minor offences, such as refusing to leave a licensed premises, urinating in public, disorderly conduct etc. are ok. I do not believe in turning Australia into a Police State. I drink and I've been drunk and I've staggered home after a good night out. I never caused any damage or harm to anybody. That's not the type of person these changes are targeting or would effect.

For serious alcohol related violence that causes death we need this change. People may judge me for being harsh for putting away a killer for 20 years, I don't think it is. How would you feel if it was the person who you love the most that got killed that way?

Like most people I have committed minor crimes over the years. Illegal copying of music and films (only for my own use but it's still illegal). Driving a few km over the limit. Minor breaches of local government laws about times for using noisy equipment and so on. Things like that practically everyone has done at some point.

In the unlikely event that I was caught doing any of the above, there is minimal punishment. Never heard of anyone in trouble for copying something on a non-commercial basis. Minor speeding means a relatively small fine and that's it. Mowing the lawn 10 minutes later than allowed wouldn't result in anything more than a council officer turning up and asking me to stop, pointing out the possibility of stronger action if I didn't.

But I can assure you that if there was a large fine, say $100,000, for driving at 105 in a 100 zone then I and everyone else would be sitting firmly on 90 at most. Likewise I'd be making damn sure the mower was off by 8pm rather than finishing at 8:10. And so on.

The do-good brigade will argue otherwise, but strong penalties do change behaviour if there's a credible chance of being caught and facing that penalty.

I don't know what would be appropriate punishment for violence such as is being discussed here, but provided that there is firm evidence and proper justice (court trial) to prove guilt then at least some time in prison would seem essential as an effective deterrent.

We ought to have high definition recorded CCTV installed in areas with large numbers of pubs / clubs and a history of trouble too. We can't put them everywhere, but it wouldn't be hard to cover the main areas given that such cameras are so easy to set up these days (unlike the old days when everything had to be cabled back to the monitoring point - easy to use wireless these days).

One thing that has not been discussed but i believe may have contributed to violence by the younger members of society is the brutal violence associated with video games.

An example: This weekend my US mate returned from his break and brought an X-Box with him. I spent yesterday afternoon watching him play Grand Theft Auto, a hugely popular X-box game where you can do virtually anything you want in this virtual world...steal cars, shoot random innocent people, sucker punch innocent people walking down the street, run innocent people over in cars or other vehicles...Now while i don't accept that playing this will turn people into violent criminals i can imagine how playing these violent games can change the way we think about striking someone in real life, under the influence, in front of your mates....the same mates that you were playing GTA with online.

Watch this.....

CanOz said:

Watch this.....

Click to expand...

I'm disturbed after that. In what universe can someone make a video extolling the virtues of running around killing people. Seriously, escort killing. To think that is entertainment

Reminds me of the Southpark episode where they had informative murder pr0n. Eventually the couples descend into mind craft and start killing each other to get their game on.

Mandatory harsh sentences would be my answer too.

If they choose to wipe themselves out with alcohol and drugs, then live with the consequences.
No more excuses.

The rise in the viciousness, and the number of people who are punching to kill ... is a problem.

CanOz said:

One thing that has not been discussed but i believe may have contributed to violence by the younger members of society is the brutal violence associated with video games.

An example: This weekend my US mate returned from his break and brought an X-Box with him. I spent yesterday afternoon watching him play Grand Theft Auto, a hugely popular X-box game where you can do virtually anything you want in this virtual world...steal cars, shoot random innocent people, sucker punch innocent people walking down the street, run innocent people over in cars or other vehicles...Now while i don't accept that playing this will turn people into violent criminals i can imagine how playing these violent games can change the way we think about striking someone in real life, under the influence, in front of your mates....the same mates that you were playing GTA with online.

Watch this.....

Click to expand...

Agree with you Canoz, on one hand it desensitises the squirmish and fuels the latent sadist.
With society pushing the passive victim ideology, I dread to think where it will end.
Sometime, someone has to dish out some eye for an eye punishment, otherwise the extreme violence will escalate.IMO
From my experience, there is nothing more a bully likes, than someone who takes it.

Unfortunately the only examples I have seen of bullies changing their behaviour, is when they cop a bit of their own medicine.
I would love to agree with the warm feel good, group hug believers, however from personal experience dishing out a bit of their own medicine seemed to have more lasting results.

Yes, but they don't pick people that are going to fight back, sptrawler, its abit late when the person is killed.

How many times have we heard of people going to help, and ending up damaged.

There used to be a lot of fuss about films and especially TV "normalisng" violence.

They might to some extent, but watching that clip I'd say that games are 1000+ times worse.

As for bullies, agreed that in general they sure don't like some of their own medicine. But the trouble is, in this case they're quite literally delivering a knockout punch - there's no opportunity to fight back.

Smurf1976 said:

As for bullies, agreed that in general they sure don't like some of their own medicine. But the trouble is, in this case they're quite literally delivering a knockout punch - there's no opportunity to fight back.

Click to expand...

Well I guess that goes back to my comment about the passive victim ideology, it is IMO opinion the dumbest principle perpetrated on society.
That might sound a bit harsh, but the only criminal that is going to walk away from a passive victim IMO is a person who isn't a criminal.

No matter where I go, I'm aware of the possibility of a violent incident happening.
I don't expect it to happen, but I do think of the possibilty it could happen.
I guess that's a result of growing up in violent surroundings.

This knock out punch, runing up from behind, should be treated with corpral punishment. It's simple easy to administer and is more appropriate than throwing them in gaol.

Agree, smurf and sptrawler, as we saw, these people don't stop with the victim, they even knocked out the cameraman on the day of the court. Flat on the concrete pavement, it wasn't enough that they had already killed someone.

They have no respect for others.

Since when have we seen people knocking out the elderly, there is something wrong in society and there needs to be a strong message put out there somehow.