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Wayne just had a look at their site- they make some good points, but do alot of needless nitpicking.
Funniest thing ever on it but- If you look on the right hand column where they put their interpretations of the passages, you will sometimes see pictures of lego people. click on it and it opens up something called "the brick testament"

Those guys have way too much time on their hands
 

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Yes, was going to answer them Prof... (note, my own opinion here)....


NO... Christians, by definition, followers of Christ as specified in the GOSPEL, follow Jesus, Jesus says GOD is in reality Three Entities, Father, Son (Jesus Himself) and the Holy Sprit... This GOD is the about Love and Compassion... We must worship GOD and Do unto others as we would like done to us...

As my answer to Qts 1 is NO, i have no opinion on Qts 2. Each to their own...

4. Or do you believe that as long as someone is worshipping "a god" of somekind that they will be granted a passage to heaven?
Click to expand...

What happened to Qts 3 ... Anyway... most religions have different 'heavens...' (i.e. there are no Virgins mentioned in jesus's heaven!!!) so again, depending on a persons religious beliefs, Heaven could be many things... so I would say, NO, they would not have passage to the Christian Heaven... eg... A Buddhist would go to Nirvana... etc... (hope i've explained that well...)

5. Is it at all possible, that because the bible and other religious texts are texts written by men, for men, that relgious people of all kinds may be living in a way that is not appropriate enough enjoy the afterlife in heaven?
Click to expand...

When you mention the Bible, I would like you to exclude the GOSPELS... cause those 4 books as close to a historically accurate account of Jesus's teachings as we can get... considering its been 2000yrs ago... and Jesus is GOD...

the rest of the books are written, as I said earlier, by prophets hallucinating in the desert (old testament) and Jesus's desciples future musings (rest of the new testament).... i.e. written by men, for men…

So in answer to your questions... YES, i agree... for all books except the GOSPELS...

If you are talking about GOSPELS in particular... NO... cause that is the way Jesus wants us to live... and people like you Prof, and Kennas are living that way… besides the belief in GOD bit….

Hope these answers make sense… once again, they are my opinion...
 
Agree Rafa. That's why it's often called 'The Good News Bible'!!!

I think it's written how it is because of the culture of the day and what the authors wanted to achieve with the books. They finally saw that it was peace and compassion that was important and we should forgive and forget, etc. Anyway, I'll have to check. I'm sure there is something about eternal damnation if you cross JC in there somewhere.

Still, the book and devine ethics of modern Christianity rest on a demand and a threat (follow or go to hell), not on reasons, and certainly not on reasons prompted by reflection on the facts of human nature and human experience.

I think we can just do better that's all. Let's raise that bar a bit! Let's not just take the dogma, irrationalism, and what I think has been the failures of religion, and accept that it is the only way.

If we have a good look around the world it's very easy to see the failures of societies built on religion. Ask the Incans what they think of the Spanish (Catholic) Conquistadors. I recently spent a year on a religious pilgrimage around the globe and I tell you, the Catholic Church has got a lot to answer for in the way it destroyed indigenous cultures. In the name of their God.

Let's strive for something better. Just being a better Christian doesn't cut it for me. The person that chooses to be good for goods sake is a more ethical person than the one that does it because a book tells them to. Or that they might personally go to heaven. Being a good Christian can be seen as selfishness dressed up as ultruism. It's not too hard to see through it when you really look.

Hope I'm not stepping over the line there. I am probably off the track, and will certainly be going to hell on judgement day, when it comes around.
 
Rafa said:
Jesus says GOD is in reality Three Entities, Father, Son (Jesus Himself) and the Holy Sprit
Click to expand...

Hello Rafa,

Could you direct me to the passages that explicitly says that.

Thanks
 
Ooooh, Wayne you've hit one of the classic problems of Christian philosophy and doctrine. The holy Trinity. It makes no sence at all and was argued over for quite a while at the Council of Nicaea by all the top dogs of the Christain world in the 300s. 320 I think. This is a can of worms for any practicing Christian to try and contain. Impossible.
 
I also am flabbergasted with the actions of Churches in the past... to answer why they did that, I think Kennas you should read your own post many pages ago... we are just animals... trying to survive... we use whatever means at our disposal to build our powerbase, and using GOD’s name is the easiest way to do that… But that’s not GOD’s fault is it???

And as for being Good for good sake... thats all well and good... But once again, as you said many posts ago, we are but Humans... Animals... its all about survival, we can't be good for goods sake, unless our religion tells us too...

Do you really think you are good for goods sake… you are good, because of your upbringing, and that of your parents/mentors up bringing, they were good because of their parents/mentors upbringing, and so on… your set of morals has been inherited… at some point in the line, this goodness would have been based on religion...

One the other matter…
I don't intend it explain the Holy Trinity at all...
Its a matter of Faith... !

you either believe it or your don't! regardless, its the message of how to live your lives that is given in the GOSPELS that counts...

Wayne, i'm no bible basher..., i am sure you can google it up...

PS: Footballs on soon, so may not be able to reply till tomorrow morning...
 

Rafa

I think "good" is a problematical term. It's a subjective concept.

I take issue with your suggestion that if one has some capacity for what you describe as goodness (I would probably say perhaps a moral code, sense of decency or something like that) then that must have religion at its base somewhere. Why?

The only possible connection I can see is the phrase "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" which I believe is from somewhere in the Bible.
Not even sure about that. This is a phrase which has been currency of our language for so long that if it is indeed from the Bible then most of us would have forgotten that that is the source.

All it means to me is that it makes sense to behave towards other people as I would like them to behave towards me. I think that covers most of what you might term good, bad and most stuff in between. It absolutely does not imply any religious connotation whatsoever to me, either now or in the past.

Julia
 
Hi Rafa, Yes, I have said all those things but they are aiming towards the first thing I think we need to do to truly be a good person. And that is to recognise that we are animals fighting to survive. This explains all our bad actions. It explains why we have invented and used religion to explain the origin of the universe and as a force to assist us in defeating our enemies. But until we recognise this, the whole world is fake. It's all a lie. We are living in a dream world. We think we are the rulers of the planet and control it. We do not, and we are killing it by thinking that it is ours to use utterly as God told us in creation theory. We are another organism on the globe and the earth will take us back to where we came in the future if we continue on this consumer path. We are not a superiour being and God is not going to save us. We have to save ourselves. This recognition is the starting point in being a better human for the planet and for other humans.
 
RE the Trinity

Not trying to make trouble, or have it explained, I just want to know where the bible mentions it, so I can do my own research.

Thats all.

Cheers
 
Julia, I think you are so close to the method by which we can all live in harmony and it is one of the commandments. 'Do unto others as you would have them do to you.' If we all followed that, then there'd be much more peace in the world. I think there is more though, but this could be the foundation.
 
Hi Rafa,
Firstly I appreciate your input. Less frustrating then some

Jesus says GOD is in reality Three Entities, Father, Son (Jesus Himself) and the Holy Sprit
Click to expand...

Boy oh boy have I been in some heated debates about this. As I mentioned in another post, I went to church (Christian) for a few years ... Anyway, I lost count of the number of times I tried to tell people (that say they 'belived in god') about the 3 entities. I used to say 'so you belive that god is jesus and visa versa'? (or something along those lines) this is where the debate used to start, most the time they would start by saying something like 'that cant be right'.
Anyway my point here is that, IMO, there are alot of people out there that say they belive in god but dont fully understand their 'chosen religion'.

Sorry if this is a bit off track.
 
Wayne,

I'm not sure if it's mentioned in the Bible but it was debated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 and you can google that to find info.

Here's one:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

I am sure it's one of the Catechisms of the Catholic Church but I can't find it for now. Too much wine.
 

Thanks kennas.

If its too contentious an issue then we'll just sidestep it. We don't want this thread degrading into acrimony again. But I just can't remember any reference to it.

Cheers

PS Did y'all know the number of wise men is never mentioned either? Where did we get the "3" wise men from?
 
wayneL said:
RE the Trinity

Not trying to make trouble, or have it explained, I just want to know where the bible mentions it, so I can do my own research.

Thats all.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Wayne, have a look at this: http://www.allaboutgod.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?zoom_sort=0&zoom_query=trinity They also have an on-line Bible on their site so easy to look it up. Matthew 3:16-17; 28:19 seem to be the clearest.

If that link doesn't work - try this one and type "trinity" into the search box. http://www.allaboutgod.com/the-bible.htm

Hope this helps!
 
Rafa, Your quote:

"And as for being Good for good sake... thats all well and good... But once again, as you said many posts ago, we are but Humans... Animals... its all about survival, we can't be good for goods sake, unless our religion tells us too..."

Rafa, I think we should aim for being good for goods sake, and come up with our own methods and ways of living to achieve a happy life. Methods that are right for us, in our life time.

Perhaps I am dreaming and this is not possible. Perhaps we do need a dogmatic set of rules and principles based on a supernatural beings statements through his angels and prohpets to keep us in check. What are terrible design we are though if we can't do it through logic. How can we be His children made in His image if we are so corrupted, naturally unethical, etc, etc. And how come I have had a bad back since I was 14 years old. Some master designer.
 
Hi kennas

re:

How can we be His children made in His image if we are so corrupted, naturally unethical, etc, etc. And how come I have had a bad back since I was 14 years old. Some master designer.
Click to expand...

The way I think about this is that the world we are in (with both its good and bad/evil features) is a consequence of Adam and Eve taking a bite out of that apple as I described in an earlier post and so I wont repeat it here.

Regarding your bad back.....and I'm not saying that this is the case in your particular circumstances, but earlier when confession was discussed it was only half the story. Although sins are forgiven in confession God still requires us to do some sort of punishment for our sins.....ie....a bit like a mother telling one of her children that she forgives them for not cleaning their room when they were told but they will still not be allowed to watch TV for a week as punishment.

Now this punishment could be served in this life, through some sort of hardship...ie....illness, loss of some sort etc etc or in the next life in purgatory before we are fit to enter heaven provided we were not in a state of mortal sin when we leave this world or a combination of both.

cheers

bullmarket
 
As I`ve said before I`m not religious,but this idea that we should be good because it`s right doesnt make sense without the religious basis of the reason for being good,people might still think that cannibalism,is totally acceptable because its what they do.It was through religion that they learned it wasnt,ect...

Having said all that some people do behave as though going to church makes them good,when in fact they are not good at all.

So does God exists I`m not sure,and do I read the bible no,the rules by which we live are reasonbly often revised by the church so they make more sense according to what period we are up to.So God only knows what meaning to put to the Bible.
 
Hi Bull,

Yep, I remember your Adam and Eve comment and this is a convenient way for Christains to explain all the pain and suffering in the world. It is further reason for us to be 'good' so that we get to heaven. It's not a true story though Bull, it's just a metaphor to explain what happens if we do bad things. I believe, and I think there are some Christain Apologists out there who also believe, that many of the stories were never supposed to be taken literally, they are there as little bed time stories to make sure we don't go out and covert thy neighbours wife. The problem has arisen however: just which of these cute stories are actually true and which are, well, cute little stories.

Now, as for my back: I have a sneaking suspicion that it is stuffed because God doesn't like me. Several years ago a cousin of mine, who is a born again minister in the Potters House church, sat me down and tried to 'heal' me. He went on and on about JC 'healing this back, this back that has been sore,' yada yada yada. Well, the very next week I had to be stretchered off to an ambulance and was in hospital for a week. One week after being healed! He's got it in for me, that nasty Yahweh! I'm sure if I truly believed I'd be fixed though, right?
 
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