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Aboriginal?

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kennas said:
Peter G for PM 2020?
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nope kennas, not PM, just

Minister for EMAAF-a-CSIAAF-a-O
(hi - lilly - hi - lilly - hi - lo )

Minister for Environ Mental As Anything FaCSIA and F***ups , oh yeah , and Oil

FaCSIA = Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs (FaCSIA). , but you all already knew that

I think he would be great - a morally driven man - what a refreshing change that would make

Not that I mind Turnbull btw. (At least he's a Republican lol) - and if the country goes into recession - he will be able to personally bail us out
 
wayneL said:
Not that he would ever consider such a thing lol
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maybe some of the trading threads will come good, and us ASF members will be able to provide the finance to get us out of the next recession ( sorry that's a Saturday night happy hour comment)
 
kennas said:
I don't think either party has the balls or creativity to do more than we are for the Aboriginals. It's gotta happen from the inside now, IMO. And it will, but it will just take time. Give it another 100 years perhaps.
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I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the aboriginals, by anyone. Except themselves. All the apologies and forgiveness in the world isn't going to change a thing unless they stop their own culture from disappearing into oblivion. All that another 100 years will do is to kill them off altogether.

There are a number of problems that I see with the aboriginal community. Namely, their demands, needs and wishes are not coherent. Secondly, their problems are undoubtedly linked with practical problems caused by political correctness.

There was an incident a few weeks ago in Broome where a Queensland aboriginal was not allowed to play a didgeridoo concert because the local elders forbid it. To me, this would be a perfect example of social capital being built between the white, and aborginal communities. Instead, the decision taken further erodes it. From one perspective, the aboriginal community wants to be respected and admired. And on another, petty, tribal infighting ensues as it did here. How can a group be treated with respect when they can't even abandon stupid squabbling?

Government bodies aren't allowed to deal objectively with aboriginal communities. For example, because of previous problems and failings, aboriginal children are left in dangerous environments, as any action taken is deemed potentially racist. Until there is a consensus where the aboriginal community actually recognises its problems, and doesn't just label the subsequent action as racist, no help can be received.

And it wouldn't hurt if aboriginal communities promoted the importance of education to their people.

At the end of the day, dealing with communities is a lot like dealing with people. If people aren't willing to do anything to help themselves, there is never anything anyone can do.

I'm probably as left as they get on this forum, but the aboriginal problem is something i've never had any answers for. The solution has to come from within. No-one is forcing them to take the path they are taking as a community. And only they have the power to change it.
 
chops_a_must said:
I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the aboriginals, by anyone.
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one man's opinion m8
totally defeatist btw

hopefully we'll all live long enough to see
a) a formal apology
b) a change in mindset
c) major changes in black education, health, policing, justice ( palm island for chrissake - how close was that to a travesty)
d) aboriginal longevity (out of dark ages statistics)
etc

as for not being allowed to play the didgeridoo in Broome, maybe it was a protestan didge instead of a catholic one (if you get my ghist) - like as if white men can pretend they act logically.

I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the aboriginals
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and I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the white men either ??
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maybe you can see where I'm coming from?

PS I used to know a girl, she was a nurse, used to go to WA Ab communities to check for diseases (incl rampant VD ) - and ...
they'd run away into the bush rather than be tested

Question remains - is that any excuse to not try to catch em? - educate etc. Seriously , these matters are things Aus should be ashamed of. As I said back there - put politicians on AWA'a , no results , no remuneration - let's see if things didn't improve then
 
2020hindsight said:
one man's opinion m8
totally defeatist btw
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Just realistic.

2020hindsight said:
hopefully we'll all live long enough to see
a) a formal apology
b) a change in mindset
c) major changes in black education
d) aboriginal longevity (out of dark ages statistics)
etc
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a) Wont change a thing.
b) From what to what? You have to earn respect. And as is the case in WA, where the majority of elders are convicted criminals, it makes it incredibly difficult.
c) Getting them to turn up (to anything for that matter) would be a start, without having to pay them.
d) A lot of that is due to the poverty that they are in. But when, for example, 30-40% of aboriginal kids under 10 have STD's in the state's north west, it is a major worry. And there isn't much anyone from the outside can do about that.

2020hindsight said:
as for not being allowed to pay the didgeridoo in Broome, maybe it was a protestan didge instead of a catholic one (if you get my ghist) - like as if white men can pretnd they act logically.
maybe you can see where I'm coming from?
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Yes, I can, but regardless of who is acting in such a fashion, it is pathetic.
 
chops_a_must said:
Yes, I can, but regardless of who is acting in such a fashion, it is pathetic.
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so to agree, we would have to come down to a common denominator ...

I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the aboriginals

and I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the white men either ??
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PS maybe you should tell the Govt that they are wasting their money.
and the Reconciliation Australian website for much more detail on activities and study kits. http://www.reconciliationaustralia.o.../involved.html
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PS hey chops - tell me your version of palm island
and your version of deaths in custody australia wide !!

PS SHEESH!! am I fighting the bludy world here !!

PS -
theory 1:- The govt are wasting their money (as currently spent)
theory 2:- Julia invites us to suggest ideas for % alcohol in drinks or doctored petrol, or anything else we can think of WITHOUT REGARD FOR EXPENDITURE.

We seem to be going round in circles - Surely we can treat these people as "just-off-almost-whites" and maybe (sure with a few extra $ maybe) the answer will magically appear like a divine biblical glow on one of our friggin heads !!
 


I think that is the point I was tring to make. We need to stop coming up with ideas. We just need to support and encourage and stop the negativity. The more we do the more we damage because it all sends a patronisng message. They are very capable of making up their own minds, we just need to accept the responsibility of unconditional support because we are responsible for the unequal level of support they have had.

Example, Cape York. Now the wild rivers is a national park. Should have been their call. Simple. If you could trust anyone with a pristine environment it is them, not us, so we should have just trusted them to manage the land wisely as they always have.

Why do people who treat their land with such respect even need national park status?, it is a concept made only for those who disrespect the land, us.

Now they cannot develop industry on this land and evolve their culture in thier own environment. So we didn't need that plan. More importantly they didn't need that plan, there was no threat. So we need to stop with our plans and simply support theirs. They are just a tad smarter than us in some respect.
 
Julia
You don't like it when I am critical, without providing "answers".

I have been "part of the system", and seen how it works.
In essence, the "system does not work, and it cannot work - not as it presently is constructed.
Moreover, if you and others understood a bit about it, you might also wonder, .
Let's look at an example.
(Remember that most government strategies receive ministerial endorsement after processing through a hierarchy of advisory and consultative committees.)
In the case of the development of the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Nutrition Strategy and Action Plan, the majority-Aboriginal working party was in effect a sub-sub-sub-committee of the endorsing committee: the Australian Health Ministers Advisory Council. This and other endorsing councils do not include an Aboriginal person to explain the complexities and nuances of Aboriginal cultural concepts, and thus revert to understandings distilled from literature or from their own perspective.

Currently most of the federal government's initiatives involve a "carrot and stick" approach through shared responsibility agreements, and the recent notion that if every aborigine could speak English their plight would be less dire.

I think the present government not only has no clue about making a lasting positive difference to aborigines, they have maintained their practice of "wedge" politics that divides mainstream Australia from any lesser group.
 
2020hindsight said:
PS hey chops - tell me your version of palm island
and your version of deaths in custody australia wide !!
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I don't know enough about Palm Island.

Deaths in custody has been a debating point for 20 years now I guess. And all that the Royal Commission in 91 proved was that aboriginals die in custody in the same percentages as any other group, thereby discounting mis-treatment, it is just that they are over represented in prison populations, making it seem like they die in higher numbers.

There is often a direct link between lack of education and crime rates. We know aboriginal communities rate badly when it comes to education levels. So how do we get these little buggers to attend school? That's the first, most important step.
 
One of our fields of work is stone age culture (european) and of course back in the stone age we were also in the ice age. During this period man saw caves as fantastic shelter. However most aboriginals would not step foot inside a cave. It would seem an obvious source of shelter to us but few aborigines would venture in. Some did, for art, burial or a few reasons but not for shelter. They feared them.

This is a deep seated fear we have no hope to understand but demonstrates it goes way back so aboriginal deaths in custody is easy to understand in that sense. Why all of a sudden would they feel safe in a closed in space after years of intrinsic claustrophobia?
 
chops_a_must said:
I don't know enough about Palm Island.

So how do we get these little buggers to attend school? That's the first, most important step.
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and the second step is for you to go to school and read about Palm Island
(I try to keep up with WA current affairs after all
and this is a Qld thing, and I live in NSW - as if any of that is important)

1. Coroner rules a man Mulrunji Doomadgee dies in custody due to a kick to the back which split his liver / spleen whatever -
2. prosecutor doesnt press charges on the policeman/(men) involved,
3. Qld Govt try to give it the whitewash treatment -
4. but after MASSIVE presssure are forced to ask Judge , Sir Lawrence Street, to do a report - he agrees there is a case to answer for
5. finally policeman (Hurley) is on charges of manslaughter).
6. It comes to court in a month or two
7. Watch this space ( and be edumacated on the subject of black justice under the mighty white legal system )

You wouldn't understand , because in WA, it never gets past step ? 2? 3 maybe?

PS IRRESPECTIVE of the injustice above, as I understand it, a mother is spending 18 months in jail for throwing rocks at the police station after it was announced that the man in the watchhouse was killed.

And you blokes keep quoting to me that the percentage of blacks in custody is high!!!

well hot diggity dog - you blokes are geniuses - shame you can't see the wood for the BLUDY TREES.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=110616&highlight=hurley#post110616
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=115585&highlight=hurley#post115585
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=115781&highlight=hurley#post115781
 
One thing for sure is how much money needs to be spent ?
Or is it how much money needs to be squandered ?
Or if they need to be subsidized for ever ?
Or would they be happy living like their predecssors ?
Or when are they going to except
reponsibility for their own actions ?
Or are they able to be just Aussies like the nest of us ?
Or if they feel that they can't , What would they like us non Ab's to do ?

Bobby ?????????????
 


Booby

Those questions are for us to answer, not for them.
 

OK, Rob. I appreciate the point you are making about the sub-sub-committees etc. Typical bureacratic stuff. And to not include Aboriginal representation in these committees seems especially silly.

So are you saying that you believe by including an aboriginal representative(s) in these committees a solution will be found to alleviate the domestic and sexual violence, reluctance to accept education, appalling health outcomes etc?

This ties in with Wayne's suggestion that nothing imposed on indigenous people will work, but rather their own ideas should be sought.

I suppose I had thought that all of the suggestions and ideas so articulately expressed by Noel Pearson would have constituted at least some measure of this indigenous participation. Why are not more of them speaking up and telling us what their population needs to overcome their difficulties?

It may seem an inappropriate analogy, but if, e.g. Germaine Greer, Betty Freidan etc didn't get up and make demands for women's rights several decades ago, we women would still be accepting that our lot was to be second class citizens to our men. Until Aboriginal leaders can come forward with their own clearly articulated needs I suspect successive governments will continue to flounder amongst unproductive policies.

Imo the "fault" is not completely with either the government or the indigenous population.
 
Spaghetti said:
Now the wild rivers is a national park. Should have been their call. Simple. If you could trust anyone with a pristine environment it is them, not us, so we should have just trusted them to manage the land wisely as they always have.
Click to expand...

it is a load of rubbish that aboriginal peoples of wherever they are in the world are more in tune with nature and somehow mystically endowed with morally superior land protection powers.

australian aborigines were directly responsible for the extintion of the megafauna that once roamed the continent, and their use of fire as a land management tool is just another example of humankind manipulating the environment around them to improve their survivability.


that is an extremely racist and innane quote. "aborigines are culturally inclined to fear jail cells because their ancestors were scared of caves." do you write this stuff yourself?
 
2020hindsight said:
PS -
theory 2:- Julia invites us to suggest ideas for % alcohol in drinks or doctored petrol, or anything else we can think of WITHOUT REGARD FOR EXPENDITURE.
Click to expand...

I didn't ask anyone to suggest ideas for % alcohol in drinks. I didn't mention petrol. The reference to alcohol was with regard to my having heard an ABC radio programme recently about an indigenous community which - following years of appalling violence and sexual assault, with murder being almost an everyday event, the decision was taken to ban alcohol. The result was a cohesive and functional community where the children went to school and it was rare for a woman to be bashed.
I did not say this should happen. It seems to have worked in this instance.
As has already been observed on this thread,much of the violence occurs around excessive alcohol consumption.

All I was trying to get you to do, 2020, was to replace just a little of your bleeding heart with some practical suggestions as to what you believe would actually turn the situation around.

We have actually got the message that in your opinion all of us white people are bad and should be feeling immensely guilt ridden for what earlier generations did. (I, for one, wasn't even living in Australia until 14 years ago for heaven's sake). But I simply don't see that all your handwringing and mea culpas are having the least bit of positive effect on the plight of the indigenous people.
 

That will be why one of their communities has offered to have their land used as a dumping ground for radioactive waste then.
 
 
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