Aboriginal?

[2020hindsight]

Peter G for PM 2020?

nope kennas, not PM, just

Minister for EMAAF-a-CSIAAF-a-O
(hi - lilly - hi - lilly - hi - lo )

Minister for Environ Mental As Anything FaCSIA and F***ups , oh yeah , and Oil

FaCSIA = Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs (FaCSIA). , but you all already knew that

I think he would be great - a morally driven man - what a refreshing change that would make

Not that I mind Turnbull btw. (At least he's a Republican lol) - and if the country goes into recession - he will be able to personally bail us out

 

[wayneL]

he will be able to personally bail us out

Not that he would ever consider such a thing lol

 

[2020hindsight]

Not that he would ever consider such a thing lol

maybe some of the trading threads will come good, and us ASF members will be able to provide the finance to get us out of the next recession ( sorry that's a Saturday night happy hour comment)

 

[chops_a_must]

I don't think either party has the balls or creativity to do more than we are for the Aboriginals. It's gotta happen from the inside now, IMO. And it will, but it will just take time. Give it another 100 years perhaps.

I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the aboriginals, by anyone. Except themselves. All the apologies and forgiveness in the world isn't going to change a thing unless they stop their own culture from disappearing into oblivion. All that another 100 years will do is to kill them off altogether.

There are a number of problems that I see with the aboriginal community. Namely, their demands, needs and wishes are not coherent. Secondly, their problems are undoubtedly linked with practical problems caused by political correctness.

There was an incident a few weeks ago in Broome where a Queensland aboriginal was not allowed to play a didgeridoo concert because the local elders forbid it. To me, this would be a perfect example of social capital being built between the white, and aborginal communities. Instead, the decision taken further erodes it. From one perspective, the aboriginal community wants to be respected and admired. And on another, petty, tribal infighting ensues as it did here. How can a group be treated with respect when they can't even abandon stupid squabbling?

Government bodies aren't allowed to deal objectively with aboriginal communities. For example, because of previous problems and failings, aboriginal children are left in dangerous environments, as any action taken is deemed potentially racist. Until there is a consensus where the aboriginal community actually recognises its problems, and doesn't just label the subsequent action as racist, no help can be received.

And it wouldn't hurt if aboriginal communities promoted the importance of education to their people.

At the end of the day, dealing with communities is a lot like dealing with people. If people aren't willing to do anything to help themselves, there is never anything anyone can do.

I'm probably as left as they get on this forum, but the aboriginal problem is something i've never had any answers for. The solution has to come from within. No-one is forcing them to take the path they are taking as a community. And only they have the power to change it.

 

[2020hindsight]

I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the aboriginals, by anyone.

one man's opinion m8
totally defeatist btw

hopefully we'll all live long enough to see
a) a formal apology
b) a change in mindset
c) major changes in black education, health, policing, justice ( palm island for chrissake - how close was that to a travesty)
d) aboriginal longevity (out of dark ages statistics)
etc

as for not being allowed to play the didgeridoo in Broome, maybe it was a protestan didge instead of a catholic one (if you get my ghist) - like as if white men can pretend they act logically.

I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the aboriginals

and I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the white men either ??

maybe you can see where I'm coming from?

PS I used to know a girl, she was a nurse, used to go to WA Ab communities to check for diseases (incl rampant VD ) - and ...
they'd run away into the bush rather than be tested

Question remains - is that any excuse to not try to catch em? - educate etc. Seriously , these matters are things Aus should be ashamed of. As I said back there - put politicians on AWA'a , no results , no remuneration - let's see if things didn't improve then

 

[chops_a_must]

one man's opinion m8
totally defeatist btw

Just realistic.

hopefully we'll all live long enough to see
a) a formal apology
b) a change in mindset
c) major changes in black education
d) aboriginal longevity (out of dark ages statistics)
etc

a) Wont change a thing.
b) From what to what? You have to earn respect. And as is the case in WA, where the majority of elders are convicted criminals, it makes it incredibly difficult.
c) Getting them to turn up (to anything for that matter) would be a start, without having to pay them.
d) A lot of that is due to the poverty that they are in. But when, for example, 30-40% of aboriginal kids under 10 have STD's in the state's north west, it is a major worry. And there isn't much anyone from the outside can do about that.

as for not being allowed to pay the didgeridoo in Broome, maybe it was a protestan didge instead of a catholic one (if you get my ghist) - like as if white men can pretnd they act logically.
maybe you can see where I'm coming from?

Yes, I can, but regardless of who is acting in such a fashion, it is pathetic.

 

[2020hindsight]

Yes, I can, but regardless of who is acting in such a fashion, it is pathetic.

so to agree, we would have to come down to a common denominator ...

I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the aboriginals

and I actually don't think there is anything more that can be done for the white men either ??

PS maybe you should tell the Govt that they are wasting their money.

and the Reconciliation Australian website for much more detail on activities and study kits. http://www.reconciliationaustralia.o.../involved.html

PS hey chops - tell me your version of palm island
and your version of deaths in custody australia wide !!

PS SHEESH!! am I fighting the bludy world here !!

PS -
theory 1:- The govt are wasting their money (as currently spent)
theory 2:- Julia invites us to suggest ideas for % alcohol in drinks or doctored petrol, or anything else we can think of WITHOUT REGARD FOR EXPENDITURE.

We seem to be going round in circles - Surely we can treat these people as "just-off-almost-whites" and maybe (sure with a few extra $ maybe) the answer will magically appear like a divine biblical glow on one of our friggin heads !!

 

[Spaghetti]

Hello Dukey,

Thank you. I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts.

And to everyone who has jumped so hard on Disarray, I can't see where any of you have actually come up with any real suggestions as to how the problems can be managed better.

There's a very fine line between (a) being supportive and being indulgent, and (b) being realistic and being insensitive. Damned if I know where it should be drawn.

I think that is the point I was tring to make. We need to stop coming up with ideas. We just need to support and encourage and stop the negativity. The more we do the more we damage because it all sends a patronisng message. They are very capable of making up their own minds, we just need to accept the responsibility of unconditional support because we are responsible for the unequal level of support they have had.

Example, Cape York. Now the wild rivers is a national park. Should have been their call. Simple. If you could trust anyone with a pristine environment it is them, not us, so we should have just trusted them to manage the land wisely as they always have.

Why do people who treat their land with such respect even need national park status?, it is a concept made only for those who disrespect the land, us.

Now they cannot develop industry on this land and evolve their culture in thier own environment. So we didn't need that plan. More importantly they didn't need that plan, there was no threat. So we need to stop with our plans and simply support theirs. They are just a tad smarter than us in some respect.

 

[rederob]

Julia
You don't like it when I am critical, without providing "answers".

I have been "part of the system", and seen how it works.
In essence, the "system does not work, and it cannot work - not as it presently is constructed.
Moreover, if you and others understood a bit about it, you might also wonder, .
Let's look at an example.
(Remember that most government strategies receive ministerial endorsement after processing through a hierarchy of advisory and consultative committees.)
In the case of the development of the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Nutrition Strategy and Action Plan, the majority-Aboriginal working party was in effect a sub-sub-sub-committee of the endorsing committee: the Australian Health Ministers Advisory Council. This and other endorsing councils do not include an Aboriginal person to explain the complexities and nuances of Aboriginal cultural concepts, and thus revert to understandings distilled from literature or from their own perspective.

Currently most of the federal government's initiatives involve a "carrot and stick" approach through shared responsibility agreements, and the recent notion that if every aborigine could speak English their plight would be less dire.

I think the present government not only has no clue about making a lasting positive difference to aborigines, they have maintained their practice of "wedge" politics that divides mainstream Australia from any lesser group.

 

[chops_a_must]

PS hey chops - tell me your version of palm island
and your version of deaths in custody australia wide !!

I don't know enough about Palm Island.

Deaths in custody has been a debating point for 20 years now I guess. And all that the Royal Commission in 91 proved was that aboriginals die in custody in the same percentages as any other group, thereby discounting mis-treatment, it is just that they are over represented in prison populations, making it seem like they die in higher numbers.

There is often a direct link between lack of education and crime rates. We know aboriginal communities rate badly when it comes to education levels. So how do we get these little buggers to attend school? That's the first, most important step.

 

[Spaghetti]

One of our fields of work is stone age culture (european) and of course back in the stone age we were also in the ice age. During this period man saw caves as fantastic shelter. However most aboriginals would not step foot inside a cave. It would seem an obvious source of shelter to us but few aborigines would venture in. Some did, for art, burial or a few reasons but not for shelter. They feared them.

This is a deep seated fear we have no hope to understand but demonstrates it goes way back so aboriginal deaths in custody is easy to understand in that sense. Why all of a sudden would they feel safe in a closed in space after years of intrinsic claustrophobia?

 

[2020hindsight]

I don't know enough about Palm Island.

So how do we get these little buggers to attend school? That's the first, most important step.

and the second step is for you to go to school and read about Palm Island
(I try to keep up with WA current affairs after all
and this is a Qld thing, and I live in NSW - as if any of that is important)

1. Coroner rules a man Mulrunji Doomadgee dies in custody due to a kick to the back which split his liver / spleen whatever -
2. prosecutor doesnt press charges on the policeman/(men) involved,
3. Qld Govt try to give it the whitewash treatment -
4. but after MASSIVE presssure are forced to ask Judge , Sir Lawrence Street, to do a report - he agrees there is a case to answer for
5. finally policeman (Hurley) is on charges of manslaughter).
6. It comes to court in a month or two
7. Watch this space ( and be edumacated on the subject of black justice under the mighty white legal system )

You wouldn't understand , because in WA, it never gets past step ? 2? 3 maybe?

PS IRRESPECTIVE of the injustice above, as I understand it, a mother is spending 18 months in jail for throwing rocks at the police station after it was announced that the man in the watchhouse was killed.

And you blokes keep quoting to me that the percentage of blacks in custody is high!!!

well hot diggity dog - you blokes are geniuses - shame you can't see the wood for the BLUDY TREES.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=110616&highlight=hurley#post110616
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=115585&highlight=hurley#post115585
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=115781&highlight=hurley#post115781

 

[Bobby]

One thing for sure is how much money needs to be spent ?
Or is it how much money needs to be squandered ?
Or if they need to be subsidized for ever ?
Or would they be happy living like their predecssors ?
Or when are they going to except
reponsibility for their own actions ?
Or are they able to be just Aussies like the nest of us ?
Or if they feel that they can't , What would they like us non Ab's to do ?

Bobby ?????????????

 

[Spaghetti]

One thing for sure is how much money needs to be spent ?
Or is it how much money needs to be squandered ?
Or if they need to be subsidized for ever ?
Or would they be happy living like their predecssors ?
Or when are they going to except
reponsibility for their own actions ?
Or are they able to be just Aussies like the nest of us ?
Or if they feel that they can't , What would they like us non Ab's to do ?

Bobby ?????????????

Booby

Those questions are for us to answer, not for them.

 

[Julia]

Julia
You don't like it when I am critical, without providing "answers".

I have been "part of the system", and seen how it works.
In essence, the "system does not work, and it cannot work - not as it presently is constructed.
Moreover, if you and others understood a bit about it, you might also wonder, .
Let's look at an example.
(Remember that most government strategies receive ministerial endorsement after processing through a hierarchy of advisory and consultative committees.)
In the case of the development of the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Nutrition Strategy and Action Plan, the majority-Aboriginal working party was in effect a sub-sub-sub-committee of the endorsing committee: the Australian Health Ministers Advisory Council. This and other endorsing councils do not include an Aboriginal person to explain the complexities and nuances of Aboriginal cultural concepts, and thus revert to understandings distilled from literature or from their own perspective.

Currently most of the federal government's initiatives involve a "carrot and stick" approach through shared responsibility agreements, and the recent notion that if every aborigine could speak English their plight would be less dire.

I think the present government not only has no clue about making a lasting positive difference to aborigines, they have maintained their practice of "wedge" politics that divides mainstream Australia from any lesser group.

OK, Rob. I appreciate the point you are making about the sub-sub-committees etc. Typical bureacratic stuff. And to not include Aboriginal representation in these committees seems especially silly.

So are you saying that you believe by including an aboriginal representative(s) in these committees a solution will be found to alleviate the domestic and sexual violence, reluctance to accept education, appalling health outcomes etc?

This ties in with Wayne's suggestion that nothing imposed on indigenous people will work, but rather their own ideas should be sought.

I suppose I had thought that all of the suggestions and ideas so articulately expressed by Noel Pearson would have constituted at least some measure of this indigenous participation. Why are not more of them speaking up and telling us what their population needs to overcome their difficulties?

It may seem an inappropriate analogy, but if, e.g. Germaine Greer, Betty Freidan etc didn't get up and make demands for women's rights several decades ago, we women would still be accepting that our lot was to be second class citizens to our men. Until Aboriginal leaders can come forward with their own clearly articulated needs I suspect successive governments will continue to flounder amongst unproductive policies.

Imo the "fault" is not completely with either the government or the indigenous population.

 

[Julia]

Peter G for PM 2020?

.

Oh, God! No, No, a thousand times no!!!

 

[disarray]

Now the wild rivers is a national park. Should have been their call. Simple. If you could trust anyone with a pristine environment it is them, not us, so we should have just trusted them to manage the land wisely as they always have.

it is a load of rubbish that aboriginal peoples of wherever they are in the world are more in tune with nature and somehow mystically endowed with morally superior land protection powers.

australian aborigines were directly responsible for the extintion of the megafauna that once roamed the continent, and their use of fire as a land management tool is just another example of humankind manipulating the environment around them to improve their survivability.

spaghetti]It would seem an obvious source of shelter to us but few aborigines would venture in. Some did, for art, burial or a few reasons but not for shelter. They feared them.

This is a deep seated fear we have no hope to understand but demonstrates it goes way back so aboriginal deaths in custody is easy to understand in that sense.

that is an extremely racist and innane quote. "aborigines are culturally inclined to fear jail cells because their ancestors were scared of caves." do you write this stuff yourself?

 

[Julia]

PS -
theory 2:- Julia invites us to suggest ideas for % alcohol in drinks or doctored petrol, or anything else we can think of WITHOUT REGARD FOR EXPENDITURE.

I didn't ask anyone to suggest ideas for % alcohol in drinks. I didn't mention petrol. The reference to alcohol was with regard to my having heard an ABC radio programme recently about an indigenous community which - following years of appalling violence and sexual assault, with murder being almost an everyday event, the decision was taken to ban alcohol. The result was a cohesive and functional community where the children went to school and it was rare for a woman to be bashed.
I did not say this should happen. It seems to have worked in this instance.
As has already been observed on this thread,much of the violence occurs around excessive alcohol consumption.

All I was trying to get you to do, 2020, was to replace just a little of your bleeding heart with some practical suggestions as to what you believe would actually turn the situation around.

We have actually got the message that in your opinion all of us white people are bad and should be feeling immensely guilt ridden for what earlier generations did. (I, for one, wasn't even living in Australia until 14 years ago for heaven's sake). But I simply don't see that all your handwringing and mea culpas are having the least bit of positive effect on the plight of the indigenous people.

 

[Julia]

Example, Cape York. Now the wild rivers is a national park. Should have been their call. Simple. If you could trust anyone with a pristine environment it is them, not us, so we should have just trusted them to manage the land wisely as they always have.

That will be why one of their communities has offered to have their land used as a dumping ground for radioactive waste then.

 

[2020hindsight]

Julia
you’re missing the point
you offer people to come up with suggestions on what to do

PS By not limiting how much they can spend, they can suggest the MOOOooN for goodness sake

I assume that it's ok to talk about anything from COAL FACE ISSUES, ....
which would presumably be
a) alcohol (for those who can afford it)
b) petrol (for those who cant)
c) rape
d) abuse
e) violence
f) not listening to elders
g) even when those elders are starting to talk nonsense because they're subject to
h) effects of a) , b) , etc or all of the above

to GLOBAL SWEEPING proposals like I hav tried to slip in surreptitiously over the last 20 posts -
j) give em jobs in movie industries where they can go see themselves at the theatres every Saturday , laughing instead of fighting
k) work in factories as the Navahos do in USA where the govt give them tax free perios of about 5 years (or more) to establish - hell , we could be generous and allow 10 years - still cheaper than the handouts we all complain about !

then I moved on to tongue in cheek
L) sack politicians who dont appreciate that there's a problem here
make em prove they are philanthropic before they are allowed to run for govt
m) make em spend as much time working on the problems as they currently do on making excuses
n) put em on productivity Agreements - no results no pay

MEANWHILE
I've watched Dukey suggest we must get them involved ( and I couldn’t agree more)!!!
and
I've written a poem or two about how important I think it is that we say sorry. (incidentally like 79% of Aussies allegedly also say

Although I'm seriously wondering how is is that so many ASF members belong to the other 29% on that one !!

I notice you claim that Johnny Howard said sorry. I am trying to find a youube of what he actually said
He ranted at them !!!
anyone who calls that an apology is .... (words fail me)
an apologist for Johnny Howard :2 twocents
make that :1one cent

Sorry Julia, I enjoy the freedom of exercising my imagination to tackle a problem
Sorry if I dont play the game of putting up ideas so that you and/or any other self styled critics can shoot em down

while simultaneously you say you don’t know the answer yourselves !!!

Sorry again , but I have a problem with "critics" - and for instance when the judges on "Idol" run their acid commentaries, I feel like mankind is a seriously sick animal

PS like the 79% of Aussies who presumably think that saying Sorry is a positive -
I look forward to someone LIKE = similar to - (and he can be lib or labour lol) PETER GARRETT

(and anyone else prepared to write a poem about the plight of the abs)
If you hadn't noticed I'm into poetry

PS and I kinda frown on blatant deaths in custody stuff
(PS what's YOUR opinion there J?)

PS even doctoring petrol is a big issue !! - why should people have engines last 30,000K less because the petrol is treated to prevent kids sniffing it???? There is nothing easy here !!

PS lets try to sort this out before the current petrol sniffers become the "Elders" - and we're all talking ... shinbone material