Aboriginal?

Spaghetti said:

Great point. It is our culture (the dominant culture of course) that has decided that compensation is payable when a wrong is commited.

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likewise , good point, m8
we pay compensation - but only when we can't weasel out of it like a morally bankrupt decadent alternative to "the savages" "we" Europens colonised.

(starting way back with the Aztecs... not that they can be compensated since they've been wiped out - anyone see that show on Pope Alexander VI's mistresses - and his debauchery - and the the gold that ended up in the Vatican taken from those heathens in the new world )

Lol, I love the way the spokesmen for church - the CHURCH !! (whether Governor Generals or whatever) - even use the excuse that they can't admit to this or that child abuse or sexual abuse or choir boy abuse or whatever - because there would be legal ramifications.

GOD almighty !! it is sickening !! and they have the hide to preach morality to the rest of us lol. !!

And anyone who pretends that the abuses that happen in AB communities don't also happen in pure crystal while society are (let's be kind) kidding 'emselves .

Dukey said:

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- would like to have a go at Julias (?) 'policy' questions later tonight.

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Hello Dukey,

Thank you. I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts.

And to everyone who has jumped so hard on Disarray, I can't see where any of you have actually come up with any real suggestions as to how the problems can be managed better.

There's a very fine line between (a) being supportive and being indulgent, and (b) being realistic and being insensitive. Damned if I know where it should be drawn.

Julia said:

Hello Dukey,

Thank you. I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts.

And to everyone who has jumped so hard on Disarray, I can't see where any of you have actually come up with any real suggestions as to how the problems can be managed better.

There's a very fine line between (a) being supportive and being indulgent, and (b) being realistic and being insensitive. Damned if I know where it should be drawn.

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Julia,

One thing for sure, being unduly or unreasonably critical adds to the problem. Give a person a reputation and they'll live up to it.

One thing I've noticed... I've had a couple of friends who have tried to "help out" by donating their time and experience to develop A enterprises up around here and have come away disillusioned. The way I saw it, they wanted the As to embrace their way of doing things.

It's not what the As wanted or even asked for. LOL So of course they didn't carry it on.

The point of that anecdote, is that part of the problem is whitefellas policy/solutions being decided on their behalf. I mean FFS have you heard David Malcolm's (ex WA chief justice) views on the matter? It's ridiculous. (God bless him, I know DM and he's a nice chap and sincere, but hasn't got a %$#^ing clue )

We can come up with all sorts of ideas, but unless they are their ideas, they won't embrace them. It will be an exercise in futility.

So - to Julias questions... and good ones they are..

Julia said:

Rob, thanks for your response.
But, since I don't know what recommendations and ideas you are referring to, I'd really appreciate your simply listing what you feel should be done to improve the lot of aboriginal people.
I'm not trying to be picky or difficult here, but I really am no wiser from your above reply as to what you think will actually benefit indigenous people.

e.g. is it helpful to ban alcohol or is this patronising, paternalistic and unreasonable?

e.g. how, specifically, would you address the appalling level of domestic violence and child rape?

e.g. how, specifically, would you go about improving aboriginal health outcomes?

e.g. how, specifically, would you find a way to address aboriginal unemployment?

etc etc. regards
Julia

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Generally I would think Enabling-Encouraging-Rewarding of self help would be my approach where possible. Involuntary enforcement by law or whatever would be a last resort. The elders are the key and should have legal powers to enforce their community rules - their way - within some defined limits.

1. Banning alcohol. A great step forward for aboriginal communities - but it MUST be the decision of the community, elders etc. Rather than enforced from on high (yes - patronising and probably a waste of time). Government role could be in EER above.
I guess one thing to consider is what alternatives to drink do people have out in the sticks. If you can't have a drink - what do you do for kicks? I've seen plenty of white bushies who guzzle themselves to sleep every night probably for lack of anything to do. I'd say it's best to involve the community in the EER system as well - so the rewards will be something meaningful to them as individuals and as a community.
Full blown alcoholics will probably need some kind of support services... so maybe there could be a kind of AAA (!) staffed by aboriginals to provide the kind of support/encouragement needed. Thus providing some jobs too.
Dunno - just brainstorming here....
Of course if you work your ass off all day - then you can just fall in the sack.

2. Domestic violence is probably closely tied to alcoholism. Traditional punishments might be useful here and for child abuse offenders. A spear in the leg is a pretty good deterrent I think. Maybe the elder women could lead this with the support of elder men. Offenders could be shamed - but must be given a realistic way to redeem themselves in the community and regain some respect - otherwise they will just become the local gang of hoods.
And again - some encouragements for communities and reformed offenders.
(is there such a thing as a reformed child abuser???? - maybe not. A difficult problem).

3. Health. Thats a biggie. In the cities there should be no excuse i guess? Just need some trained nurses from within the community to liaise with local doctors & hospitals.
In the bush communities it would be much more difficult: Issues of nutrition; isolation; substance abuse; education... lack of medical services... man the list goes on. Education of all and training of some basic medical staff would be my starting points.
How to get the kids through the door of the school is another thing...??? Maybe a 'free learning environment' model type school system could be trialled. Apparently great results can be got from 'difficult kids' this way.

4. Unemployment. NO SIT DOWN MONEY!! Unemployed must earn their pay - and it should be a fair wage for local community project work, with a compulsory savings percentage. Some for super. Some accessible after X years.
And as Wayne has posted just now - these projects need to be 'their own' ideas/needs/wants. If they build their own houses - maybe they'll respect it more. etc. and get some training into the bargain.

In the bush communities it seems obvious to get them doing what they do well. So aside from the local community jobs; setup/trial local industries/farms/ranches. Tourism services; Park rangers. Wildlife research assistants (and later actual researchers too). Citykid camps where city kids of all creeds can get into the bush and connect with nature (instead of the playstation).
Must be many more possibilities.
In the City communities - dunno - need adequate rewards for completing levels of education and training I guess. This should be for everyone - not just aboriginals. But all disadvantaged groups areas may benefit from extra incentive packages, or scholarships?
----------

so there's a few thoughts. Maybe some of these things are crazy. maybe some are already in place in some locations. I'm really just flying by the seat of my pants...
any ideas folks??

Sorry it's so late - only 11pm here in Okinawa!

2020hindsight said:

you are agreeing with me then. The stolen generation had nothing to do with fitness for parenthood. You are a perfect parent I take it. They could have taken your kids. End of story.

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no i am not agreeing with you at all. "fitness" for parenthood is far too subjective a term. is it "fit" for a parent to keep their child in third world conditions when the people at the time thought they could offer a first world alternative?

2020hindsight said:

The only emotion they should have is shame. As for the subsequent behaviour of AB's, ever heard of mitigating circumstances ?

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why should people be ashamed for doing what they thought was best? and mitigating circumstances is a very convenient way to justify the victim mentality we have been discussing.

2020hindsight said:

Not to extend em any sympathy, and worse to refuse even to apologise, is to be part of the problem, - such people obviously won't be much help in the solution.

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that is very short sighted and rather arrogant. i have some sympathy for the aboriginals plight but it doesn't give them carte blanche to act like they are at the moment. in perth and sydney aboriginal kids are literally running riot. the parents don't seem to care, social services are helpless and the police can't give them a good thumping like they deserve. so we should just continue to wring our hands and harp on about past injustices instead of demanding a reciprocal effort???

202hindsight said:

I reckon that moment when the AB leaders turned their back on Howard in Parliament one of the greatest moments in their post 1788 history. A dignified black response to undignified white behaviour.

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dude seriously, let the guilt go. its pathetic.

2020hindsight said:

If these people have legally justifiable claims (on Aus Govt or the churches or whomever), so be it

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there is a statute of limitations for a reason. how long into the past should we look to make amends? this is why the middle east is still such a basket case.

spaghetti said:

Great point. It is our culture (the dominant culture of course) that has decided that compensation is payable when a wrong is commited.

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and our dominant culture has a statute of limitations so we don't have to keep flogging ourselves forever when something is found, in hindsight, to be misguided.

2020hindsight said:

we pay compensation - but only when we can't weasel out of it like a morally bankrupt decadent alternative to "the savages" "we" Europens colonised.

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jesus christ .... you need a mop for that bleeding heart or what? put a lid on the outrage, curb those oh so tumultuous emotions and stop with the public display of disgrace. i harbour no shame for the actions of past generations, i look at what is happening NOW and how we can improve things for the future. harping out about the past does nothing but breed more recrimination and offers absolutely no constructive plan for the future. refusing to let go of the past perpetuates the problem yet you have the gall to say those who look at the present and future are the problem. you have a misguided sense of priority.

julia said:

And to everyone who has jumped so hard on Disarray, I can't see where any of you have actually come up with any real suggestions as to how the problems can be managed better

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thank you for the defence but its not necessary. i stand by my words and the outraged rantings of moral crusadeers don't really count for much, especially over the internet.

wayneL said:

One thing for sure, being unduly or unreasonably critical adds to the problem. Give a person a reputation and they'll live up to it

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of course in this day and age any criticism or accusation that personal responsibility should be a major factor in policy is deemed to be unreasonable, and becomes a launching pad for all sorts of counter accusations of bigotry, racism and other oh so nasty words. but its nice you can then turn around and provide justification for the current state of affairs and thereby continue to enable all the problems we have been discussing.

wayneL said:

We can come up with all sorts of ideas, but unless they are their ideas, they won't embrace them. I will be an exercise in futility

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spot on. they have to take responsibility for themselves, face their inadequacies and failings and move forward. a bit of critical introspection would be a good start WITHOUT the bleeding heart cheer squad on the sidelines encouraging the rest of us to flog ourselves.

sleep well gentlemen (and lady)

disarray said:

of course in this day and age any criticism or accusation that personal responsibility should be a major factor in policy is deemed to be unreasonable, and becomes a launching pad for all sorts of counter accusations of bigotry, racism and other oh so nasty words.

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True, it makes it very difficult to have a sensible debate when sections within both points of view, major on petty semantics. I was referring to comments like all As are no hopers, that sort of thing.

disarray said:

but its nice you can then turn around and provide justification for the current state of affairs and thereby continue to enable all the problems we have been discussing.

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Also difficult when comments are deliberately misconstrued for the exclusive purpose of debate, rather than discussion of favourable outcomes.

I need not explain this phenomenon, it well documented elsewhere.

Bout time we heard from some AB's in this discussion...
kinda relevant considering what is going on in UK, returning remains.

http://www.faira.org.au/lrq/archives/200102/stories/dead_rights_story.html

This is a long paper , and the following is just an excerpt (assuming I do this correctly, this should read down left hand column , then down right ):-

"We are more wholesome over this decision, and welcome the return of our old people back to the country from where they were robbed from their graves" Michael Mansell.

Personally I don't feel strongly about the bones - but one things for sure, if these people want those bones returned, then we (and UK museums) have no right to stop them.

Just one small step towards dignity. And "a journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step" as someone said (Buddha?)

http://www.smh.com.au/news/NATIONAL...ing-home-to-Tas/2007/05/14/1178995050385.html

Aboriginal remains coming home to Tas
May 14, 2007 - 1:39PM
Tasmania's Aboriginal community is expected to turn out in large numbers to celebrate the return of its ancestors' remains from Britain.
Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre (TAC) delegates Caroline Spotswood and Greg Brown are due to arrive at Hobart airport with the remains of 17 of their forebears.
The pair were last week successful in negotiating the repatriation from the Natural History Museum in London.
"This afternoon will be one of the biggest moments in the history of our people, and our community will travel from far and wide to witness the moment," TAC legal director Michael Mansell said.
Mr Mansell said the TAC had been lobbying for the repatriation for 20 years without "invasive scientific testing" being carried out on bones, teeth and hair of the corpses.
The TAC this year won an injunction to stop the tests and a High Court case in London seeking custody of the remains was adjourned pending mediation.
DNA samples have also been returned, but they are not allowed to be destroyed under the terms of the agreement.
The remains were taken from Tasmania in the 19th century and found their way into the museum's collection in the 1940s through donations and transfers from other institutions.
Aborigines believe the spirits of their ancestors to be in torment unless the body is returned to its native land.
"Settling the spirits is the most important obligation of our people," Mr Mansell said.
"We are more wholesome over this decision, and welcome the return of our old people back to the country from where they were robbed from their graves."
Mr Mansell said morality and the spiritual culture of his people had won out over research.
"They wanted to play around with our dead, which is venturing towards necrophilism, it's ghoulish.
"The scientists and their disgraceful behaviour bring all of science into disrepute by claiming the dead are there for them to play around with.
"Scientists are taking the view that these remains are lost to them, but they never legitimately had them," he said.
Mr Mansell also paid tribute to the Aboriginal delegation.
"They were thrown into cut and thrust of dealing with red neck scientists and high-powered lawyers and never once forgot the cultural importance of what they were doing and what they aimed to achieve," he said.
The remains will be buried in a traditional ceremony.

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back to post #427 , some thought provoking turns of phrase :-

Our beliefs become ridiculed, our confidence becomes undermined as a result of this cultural terrorism. Our people suffer from those who assume the power and the right to perpetrate the ultimate indignity - to interpret us to ourselves.

“Australian colonial history, as it has been compiled from early records is proof of nothing more than the fact that history is always written by the conquerors”.

Science, despite its claims concerning the scientific importance of Aboriginal remains , has no prior right over the remains of our ancestors. Our moral claims to seek the re-burial of our ancestors and to control archaeological and related research must take precendence. Dr Alan Thorne, described as one of Australia’s most eminent paleoanthropologists, not long ago asserted that “the Aborigines’ moral case is unassailable”. To us the priority you give at this Inter-Congress to either morality or science is a measure of the integrity of your civilisation.

Your science, your findings and interpretations which are rooted in your own belief systems, constantly challenge our beliefs in our origins. Our beliefs become ridiculed, our confidence becomes undermined as a result of this cultural terrorism. Our peopple suffer from those who assume the power and the right to perpetrate the ultimate indignity - to interpret us to ourselves.

We are all too aware of the fact that who owns the past, controls the past and dictates in some ways the social position of people in the present. Our everyday living reality is a testament to the fact. We are also all too well aware of the fact that one of the spoils of conquest as a necessary part of maintaining political and social control over the vanquished is the power of definition - not only over personal identity but cultural identity as well. And again, it is all too obvious to us that, as our brother Kumanji Perkins has pointed out, “Australian colonial history, as it has been compiled from early records is proof of nothing more than the fact that history is always written by the conquerors”.

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disarray said:

. i have some sympathy for the aboriginals plight but - etc .

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disarray,
- so ?? where did this sympathy suddenly come from.?
Is that why you brand them "no hopers" ?

or was that past tense?-should I say “is that why you branded them no-hopers?”

You keep this up you're gonna have a cred problem - at least when you were pushing racist slurs (against AB's - not I concede against Japanese) you were being consistent.

2020hindsight :- Can I just ask you this. How would you feel if your kids were taken away from you?

disarray: if i was an unfit parent then it would be for the best. if i wasn't an unfit parent then it wouldn't be an issue.

2020hindsight :- you are agreeing with me then. The stolen generation had nothing to do with fitness for parenthood. You are a perfect parent I take it. They could have taken your kids. End of story.

disarray: - no i am not agreeing with you at all. "fitness" for parenthood is far too subjective a term. Is it "fit" for a parent to keep their child in third world conditions when the people at the time thought they could offer a first world alternative?

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funny I would have sworn you agreed with me - and/or changed the subject. You're a difficult man to argue with, disarray.

2020hindsight :- The only emotion they should have is shame. As for the subsequent behaviour of AB's, ever heard of mitigating circumstances ?

disarray: why should people be ashamed for doing what they thought was best? and mitigating circumstances is a very convenient way to justify the victim mentality we have been discussing.

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because we screwed up bigtime. Maybe you don't understand the word apology. That's what civilised people do when they screw up, with or without the best intentions.

How much pain is it gonna cause to say 'sorry' for chrissake !

And mitigating circumstances is a pretty powerful concept in treating these things objectively. - even has legal overtones, not that it should get to that.

2020hindsight :- Not to extend em any sympathy, and worse to refuse even to apologise, is to be part of the problem, - such people obviously won't be much help in the solution.

disarray:- that is very short sighted and rather arrogant. i have some sympathy for the aboriginals plight but it doesn't give them carte blanche to act like they are at the moment. in perth and sydney aboriginal kids are literally running riot.

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already discussed the conversion on the road to Damascus – but yes off course the vandalism etc in Sydney Bourke Wilcannia etc etc (where it’s barely safe to go out at night) is unacceptable

202hindsight :- I reckon that moment when the AB leaders turned their back on Howard in Parliament one of the greatest moments in their post 1788 history. A dignified black response to undignified white behaviour.

dude seriously, let the guilt go. its pathetic.

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if that’s your best reply, its also..... pretty poor

2020hindsight :- If these people have legally justifiable claims (on Aus Govt or the churches or whomever), so be it

disarray:- there is a statute of limitations for a reason. how long into the past should we look to make amends? this is why the middle east is still such a basket case.

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Pleased you’ve clarified that one, and wiped off Johnny Howards last excuse for not apologising.

2020:- And btw, as for the possible if but maybe legal ramifications of an apology, - Why would you deny them their rights?
Are we no better than James Hardie directors, etc, who would stall forever if they could get away with it?
(Or cigarette companies , puke

2020hindsight :- we pay compensation - but only when we can't weasel out of it like a morally bankrupt decadent alternative to "the savages" "we" Europeans colonised.

disarray:- jesus christ .... you need a mop for that bleeding heart or what? put a lid on the outrage,

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no reply necessary, I think you just said it all.

Julia
a few ideas for moving into a better future.

1. Only allow people with proven capacity to understand and contribute to the correction of tricky social matters (Rotarians, Apex Club etc or anyone for that matter provided they can also show that they have a philanthropic record) to run for Parliament.

2. suggest to em that they spend as much time working out the problems as they currently do making excuses

3. put em on "AWA productivity agreements" - no results no pay


PS I may think of others later - but right now, I'm off to work on site in the bludy rain.

good morning. back to the fray

wayneL]Also difficult when comments are deliberately misconstrued for the exclusive purpose of debate said:

disarray,
- so ?? where did this sympathy suddenly come from.?
Is that why you brand them "no hopers" ?

You keep this up you're gonna have a cred problem - at least when you were pushing racist slurs (against AB's - not I concede against Japanese) you were being consistent.

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i never branded them no hopers and i haven't used any racial slurs in this argument. stop projecting some right-wing opponent fantasy onto me (or confusing my posts with someone elses).

2020hindsight said:

funny I would have sworn you agreed with me - and/or changed the subject. You're a difficult man to argue with, disarray.

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i didn't agree with you at all. you seem to be having a problem understanding plain english which makes you a difficult person to have a discussion with.

2020hindsight said:

because we screwed up bigtime. Maybe you don't understand the word apology. That's what civilised people do when they screw up, with or without the best intentions.

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i don't think "we" screwed up. "we" didn't do anything. the church and government of the time followed a policy they thought was the best thing to do, with the best of intentions. now we are looking at it far down the track we can see how it could have been handled differently. everyone has 20/20 vision in hindsight hey? however various interest groups have since decided to make political capital on it and present it in such a way as to achieve their wider goals. welcome to politics.

2020hindsight said:

How much pain is it gonna cause to say 'sorry' for chrissake !

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why should i say sorry? why should the 51% of the australian population who were born overseas or had parents who were born overseas say sorry? sorry for what? sorry for spending billions of dollars year after year to try and give the aboriginal people a standard of living comparable to our own? sorry for trying integrate them into our wider, multicultural that is barely a shadow of the white colony it was founded as? which, might i add, the original colonists didn't even want to come to because they were transported here as convicts.

2020hindsight said:

And mitigating circumstances is a pretty powerful concept in treating these things objectively. - even has legal overtones, not that it should get to that.

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granted, but mitigating circumstances is being used as an excuse to stifle open, honest and critical debate of the problem.

you are getting all emotional, projecting a sense of outrage about the aborigines plight while criticising policy that doesn't do exactly what you would do. this is not helpful. how about some facts? facts are always helpful.

http://www.australian-news.com.au/aborepresent.htm

- Aboriginals are less than 3% of the population, yet they commit 20% of the violent crime in WA.
- Up to 50 per cent of Aboriginal children are victims of family violence and child abuse
- 90% of the women and 84% of the young girls had been raped at some stage of their lives (not by white people i might add)
- Aboriginal women are 20 times more likely than non-Aboriginal women to be victims of violence

http://www.crc.law.uwa.edu.au/publications/aboriginal_youth

more than 28 out of every 100 young Aborigines were arrested at least once in 1994 and faced an average of more than 5 charges each One in five Aborigines detained in 1994 was 14 years or under. Of these, 91.6% already had an arrest history.

For Western Australia, this difference is even greater, with the non-Aboriginal rate per 100,000 persons aged 10-17 being just above the national average at 28.1, while the Aboriginal rate is 912.4

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/social_justice/madrid/issue1.html

Indigenous women were incarcerated at a rate 20 times that of non-Indigenous women

Since 1991, the Indigenous prison population has grown by an average of 8% per year (compared to 3% per year for non-Indigenous people

44% of all Indigenous teenagers are likely to be at risk of entering into poverty, compared to 15% of non-Indigenous teenagers

There are estimated to be 458,500 Aborigines and Torres Strait Islander peoples in Australia. This constitutes approximately 2.4% of the total Australian population. [2] Despite this, Indigenous peoples have regularly constituted over 20% of the adult prison population and over 40% of juveniles in detention since 1997

i could go on (and on, and on, and on) but i won't. other things i won't do are accept responsibility for the behaviour of these people, accept the behaviour of these people or say sorry for something i didn't even do.

i think this might be a good place to leave off and agree to disagree.

wayneL said:

Julia,

One thing for sure, being unduly or unreasonably critical adds to the problem. Give a person a reputation and they'll live up to it.

One thing I've noticed... I've had a couple of friends who have tried to "help out" by donating their time and experience to develop A enterprises up around here and have come away disillusioned. The way I saw it, they wanted the As to embrace their way of doing things.

It's not what the As wanted or even asked for. LOL So of course they didn't carry it on.

The point of that anecdote, is that part of the problem is whitefellas policy/solutions being decided on their behalf. I mean FFS have you heard David Malcolm's (ex WA chief justice) views on the matter? It's ridiculous. (God bless him, I know DM and he's a nice chap and sincere, but hasn't got a %$#^ing clue )

We can come up with all sorts of ideas, but unless they are their ideas, they won't embrace them. It will be an exercise in futility.

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Wayne,
That's a good point. I hate people foisting their ideas on me too.
I've previously mentioned Noel Pearson who seems to have a realistic approach but his ideas never appear to bear any fruit. I don't know why.

Disarray,
I didn't set out to defend you. I was just getting a little tired of all the people who criticise any efforts that have been made to ameliorate the situation, but who fail to actually make any alternative suggestions.

As far as an apology is concerned, I recall John Howard - after the "Bringing them Home" report - said something like "It was tragic what happened to so many people, and I deeply regret that the policy, however well intentioned, caused so much hurt " I don't know what the actual words but it was something like that. He certainly expressed his sadness and regret.
I can't see what more he should have done. It is appropriate that he should regret what happened, but imo it's not appropriate that he should say "I am sorry" in the sense that we say it when we personally have hurt someone.
To expect successive generations to wallow in paroxysms of guilt for ever more doesn't seem useful or productive to me.

I'm sure we've all made decisions and done things in good faith but have later seen that we have made an error of judgment. Hopefully we learn from the mistake, value the gained wisdom, and attempt to do better in the future.

The generalisations which have appeared on this thread seem to me to be unrealistic and a bit silly. It's no more true to say that aboriginal people are all no hopers than it is to say all white people are sensible and motivated.
I do a little bit of work in the community and see a lot of aboriginal people. As far as I can tell, they share about the same variety of traits as white people, i.e. good bits and not so good bits.

Dukey,
Thanks indeed for your ideas which - typically of you - are thoughtful and balanced.

disarray said:

1. i never branded them no hopers and i haven't used any racial slurs in this argument. stop projecting some right-wing opponent fantasy onto me (or confusing my posts with someone elses).

2. i didn't agree with you at all. you seem to be having a problem understanding plain english which makes you a difficult person to have a discussion with.

3. i don't think "we" screwed up. "we" didn't do anything. the church and government of the time etc

4. why should i say sorry? why should the 51% of the australian population who were born overseas

5. ..mitigating circumstances is being used as an excuse to stifle open, honest and critical debate of the problem.

6. you are getting all emotional, projecting a sense of outrage about the aborigines plight while criticising policy that doesn't do exactly what you would do. this is not helpful. how about some facts? facts are always helpful.

http://www.australian-news.com.au/aborepresent.htm etc

Aboriginals are less than 3% of the population, 20% of the violent crime
- family violence and child abuse
- rape
- Aboriginal women are 20 times more likely than non-Aboriginal women to be victims of violence
- more than 28 out of every 100 young Aborigines were arrested at least once in 1994 and faced an average of more than 5 charges each One in five Aborigines detained in 1994 was 14 years or under. Of these, 91.6% already had an arrest history....
etc
i think this might be a good place to leave off and agree to disagree.

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disarray, If I misquoted you, then I'll say...
da..da
...
sorry

You've expressed some sympathy... and
I've apologised.

However we sure as hell don't agree on the level of that sympathy, and I sure as hell don't see how (or why) you would still try to justify the taking of children from loving parents (or even parent singular).

Who should apologise? The Govt should apologise on behalf of the Govt of the day. And the Church should apologise as well. True, it is only symbolic - but I would propose hugely symbolic to the AB's. Not much pain to us to apologise, and huge relief of pain to them.

And would probably have a marked effect on those stats you mention, imo.

There was another stat you forget....
Australia is seen as having failed in this matter by 100% of our neighbours.

yep agree to disagree.

"how do you judge an old man wearing rags, who says that he lived to the letter
alternative race or alternative place , it all would have been so much better"

Be interesting to see if Buddha has a sence of justice - and brings us white folk back as Aborigines

Just reviewing the thread which has been a most interesting discussion. Thought that this quote from BIG BWACULL was well worth repeating - especiallly given the tone of some later posts regarding the stolen generation and removal of children 'for their own safety'...

Nice one BWACULL (what DOES that mean???) - you do a good job digging up relevant stories, many of which are probably worth alot more than our speculations.

BIG BWACULL said:

Making up for stolen time

Daniel Dasey
May 27, 2007
Cecil Bowden ... lost generation child.

CECIL BOWDEN was 18 months old when the authorities arrived at his Cowra home and demanded his family hand him over.

With Cecil's father away at war, relatives could do little but watch as he was packed off to the first of a series of institutions where he would be abused, ridiculed and humiliated.

One of about 1500 people who marched through Sydney yesterday to commemorate the 10th anniversary of a report into the stolen generation of Aboriginal people, Mr Bowden said his early experiences had scarred him deeply.

Told his parents were dead, it was an easy step for an angry young man to progress from Aboriginal institutions into prisons where he would spend close to 30 years.

"It turned out my father was actually alive and had tried to get us back," Mr Bowden said.

"He was a returned soldier who fought in both world wars but he could not get his own kids."

Yesterday's Sorry Day march marked the 10th anniversary of the Bringing Them Home report into the thousands of Aboriginal Australians separated from their families as a result of government policy.

Today marks the 40th anniversary of the national referendum in 1967 that resulted in Aboriginal people being counted in Australia's census for the first time.

The anniversaries come as the Federal Opposition yesterday pledged $261million over four years towards improving primary health care for indigenous Australians.

Mr Bowden, a member of the NSW Sorry Day committee, said he remembered his reaction to the referendum in which over 90 per cent of Australians voted to officially recognise Aboriginal people.

"I felt angry as usual," he said. "But maybe a little safer."

Leilla Penrith, who was taken from her family at six months, said she remained hopeful of change.

"I've been pushed from pillar to post all my life," she said. "But I'm still trying to keep going day to day."

Shadow federal environment minister Peter Garrett told a rally at Circular Quay that white Australia still had further to go in acknowledging the harm done to Aboriginal people.

Research released by Reconciliation Australia suggests Australians are ready for better relations between indigenous and non-indigenous people. A national survey found that most Australians believed reconciliation was about developing mutual respect and that indigenous people had equal rights.

It found 71 per cent of people considered developing better relationships between black and white Australians was important.

Just under 40 per cent felt it was either very important or extremely important.
Source: The Sun-Herald

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Thanks for that Bwacull & Dukey. (and yes, I've wondered about the origin of "Bwacull" as well lol)
You know what I'm starting to worry about ?

Labour will apologise if they get in, - but - unless there is (I fear) more public support - the attitudes of many whites (29%?) - outback in particular (maybe in the cities as well) will turn even more against the blacks (and/or ridicule them), rather than permit what you'd surely expect to be a change for the better.

No question there's more to this than just an apology - but that's still a key element surely.

http://www.abc.net.au/message/blackarts/culture/s853725.htm
btw, here are some comments on ABC's website from 2003...

2003's theme for the week is Reconciliation: Together we’re doing it. ”Reconciliation Australia has chosen the theme to reflect the ground- breaking work being done in communities across Australia, where partnerships between people in schools, government, private businesses and Indigenous organisations are showing what can be achieved when we work together for reconciliation.”

For those of you who often ponder the question – what can I do? You can celebrate this 8th year of celebration by attending events, talking about in your schools and universities, signing Sorry Books and participating in forum. Many events around Australia have been organised.
Go to:

Journey of Healing website - //www.alphalink.com.au/~rez/Jo[/url] etc - no longer available

Events Calendar from journey of healing. - //www.alphalink.com.au/~rez/ etc - no longer available>

and the Reconciliation Australian website for much more detail on activities and study kits. http://www.reconciliationaustralia.org/textonly/activities/involved.html

The week of Reconciliation . Message Stick online and Radio National’s Awaye! in celebration of Sorry Day and Reconciliation Week are providing two events.

During the weeks of 20th May –2nd June (2003) Message Stick will report, review and discuss the Celebration of Indigenous Art held by the ‘03 Message Sticks at the Opera House. Go to our site Message Stick at the Opera House '03

On Wednesday 28th May, (2003) ABC TV will be screening Message from Moree a one hour documentary about an unlikely partnership between a wealthy cotton farmer and a young Aboriginal educator is leading a citizens’ push for great change in Moree. A town once dubbed the most racist in Australia is now leading the way in reconciliation between black and white Australians.

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Just thinking aloud, but supposing you wanted someone (after the next election) to help change attitudes of the entire AB race towards us, and likewise us towards them.. i.e. to :-

a) HELP (even tuppence worth) "win the hearts and minds" of the ABs,
b) talk WITH them rather than talk down to them
c) hopefully ACHIEVE a measureable improvement in attitutes across the board
d) for both whites and blacks - especially youth of each, where the black youth must be stopped from destroying themselves , and the white youth will be need the wisdom of Solomon
e) because youth is where the future is at, and the present generation and it's leadership have simply watched this thing go downhill in all those terrible statistics we are all so familiar with
f) and you need SOMEONE who is in touch with these groups

then would you choose
1. Mal Brough, whose recent negotiations with an Ab community crashed , just when it was crucial (not only in the cynical electoral cycle) to have a win on that scene, - crucial not only for the Libs ,

but more importantly, so that the OTHER AB communities would see that there was mileage to be gained in negotiating with the Libs, and maybe they weren't just paternalistically throwing them a few dollars without trying to understand.

Mal Brough , In January 2006 he became Minister for Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs (FaCSIA). This promotion brought him into Cabinet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal_Brough
Malcolm Thomas "Mal" Brough (pronounced Bruff) (born 29 December 1961), Australian politician, has been a Liberal member of the Australian House of Representatives since March 1996, representing the Division of Longman, Queensland. He was born in Brisbane, Queensland, and was an Australian Army officer and businessman before entering politics.

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or
2. Peter Garrett, who has done gigs to crowds of adoring ABs - and young whites, -
- where as I say, the future lies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Garrett Garrett was educated at the Australian National University in Canberra and then at the University of New South Wales, where he graduated in arts and law respectively. He was a rock singer and environmental activist before entering politics. He became lead singer of the successful Australian rock band Midnight Oil in 1973. As well as its great musical and commercial success, the band became well known for its commitment to environmentalist and left-wing causes, and was particularly critical of United States military and foreign policies during the 1980s.

Garrett was one of the founders of the Nuclear Disarmament Party and stood for a seat in the Australian Senate in New South Wales at the December 1984 federal election. He needed 12.5% of the vote to win a seat in the Senate voting system, but a primary vote of just over 9% was insufficient when Labor withheld preferences.

Garrett served as president of the Australian Conservation Foundation from 1989 to 1993 and 1998 to 2004. He also joined the International Board of Greenpeace in 1993 for a two-year term. He served as adviser and patron to various cultural and community organisations including Jubilee Debt Relief, and was a founding member of the Surfrider Foundation

Midnight Oil had a history of making political statements through their music and performances. For example, at the closing ceremony of the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney, the group performed before Prime Minister John Howard and a television audience of hundreds of millions, wearing black tracksuits bearing the word "sorry." This referred to the Howard Government's refusal to apologise to Aboriginal Australians for the former policy of removing of Aboriginal children from their families.

In 2000 Garrett was awarded the Australian Humanitarian Foundation Award in the Environment category and in 2001 he received an honorary Doctorate of Letters from the University of New South Wales. He left Midnight Oil in 2002 to concentrate on his environmental and social activism, effectively spelling the end for the group. He has since ruled out any future musical projects, stating that his musical career was always exclusively bound to Midnight Oil. He was appointed a Member of the Order of Australia in 2003.

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PS If anyones interested, in the past, I've probably voted 50% Libs, 25% Labour, and 35% for minor parties like the Mathematician's Party etc.
PS The above question is about..

who has the cred with the abs - and the future generations of "Black Elders" and "White Elders" to pull thing thing off.

Heck, here's an election advertising tip for Labour - Have Garret re-record this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxDDswhF0zY&mode=related&search= True Grit
Heck, here's an election advertising tip for Labour - Have Garret re-record this one

CYCLICAL ARGUMENTS around MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES

they have oh so many badguys, 'mongst their colour and their kin
and their youth are just a mob of sleezy louts
but there’s surely mitigation in their circumstantial sin
ah don’t come at me with wimpish easy outs

would you have YOUR daughter stolen, Mr Black or Mr White
taking some fool's word that she was living well
never knowing till your Heaven, whether she turned out all right
(when so many fought through institutes from Hell)

look here I’m a perfect father, and it doesn’t (hence) apply
but it does you see , they took them irrespective
well the kids were all too backward, and a few of them too shy
but they had a black child's purest brown perspective

well of course they did, but damned if I’m say sorry, shame or cry,
but this thing has been a boil which needs a lance
crist man mop that bleeding heart of yours, and here’s the reason why..
they had this mitigating circumstance ..

2020hindsight said:

Just thinking aloud, but supposing you wanted someone ..... i.e. to :-
a) HELP (even tuppence worth) "win the hearts and minds" of the ABs,

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AN APOLOGY IF I'VE CAUSED OFFENCE

two posts back there I used the words "to win their heart and mind"
- My daughter's pounced on me from some great height.
Apparently it triggers thoughts of tricky tactics kind
and only reads "control" in youthful light

I wanted it to mean that we would shake their hand as friend
I wanted it to mean we'd share a chat
It wasn't any "prize" to "win", which doubtless would offend
that wasn't where MY "heart and mind" were at.

I promised her in days of Nam when we were so naive,
'twas meant to have a pure and good effect,
but I'll 'pologise to her (and any here) before I leave, and
replace it with "gain mutual respect"

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=99556&highlight=lawson#post99556
A Prouder Man Than You (by Henry Lawson)

A PROUDER MAN THAN YOU, by Henry Lawson

If you fancy that your people came of better stock than mine,
If you hint of higher breeding by a word or by a sign,
If you're proud because of fortune or the clever things you do --
Then I'll play no second fiddle: I'm a prouder man than you!

If you think that your profession has the more gentility,
And that you are condescending to be seen along with me;
If you notice that I'm shabby while your clothes are spruce and new --
You have only got to hint it: I'm a prouder man than you!

If you have a swell companion when you see me on the street,
And you think that I'm too common for your toney friend to meet,
So that I, in passing closely, fail to come within your view --
Then be blind to me for ever: I'm a prouder man than you!

If your character be blameless, if your outward past be clean,
While 'tis known my antecedents are not what they should have been,
Do not risk contamination, save your name whate'er you do --
`Birds o' feather fly together': I'm a prouder bird than you!

Keep your patronage for others! Gold and station cannot hide
Friendship that can laugh at fortune, friendship that can conquer pride!
Offer this as to an equal -- let me see that you are true,
And my wall of pride is shattered: I am not so proud as you!

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2020hindsight said:

Just thinking aloud.....

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Peter G for PM 2020?

I've never voted Labour but was a member of NSDs party for a while, until she left. Still voted Libs though.

I won't be putting in a 'change for the sake of change' vote in this time though, even though Kev's a nice bloke. Paul was right on TV the other night, they've got no cred anywhere else, less PG, IMO.

I don't think either party has the balls or creativity to do more than we are for the Aboriginals. It's gotta happen from the inside now, IMO. And it will, but it will just take time. Give it another 100 years perhaps.