Aboriginal?

[BIG BWACULL]

Howard on his walkabout, Tough journey

 

[BIG BWACULL]

Least the WET Canteen aint far

 

[BIG BWACULL]

Cmon telstra

 

[BIG BWACULL]

One way to make money i suppose

 

[BIG BWACULL]

wonder how namatjira's are doin?

 

[2020hindsight]

however they won't be getting their land back unless they take it by force (or we give them bits and pieces of it).

Is that how they should (or should've) gotten the kids of the stolen generation back as well?

 

[disarray]

"stealing" the current crop of children from many aboriginal families would be doing them a favour.

regardless, the policies of the past (which were heavily influenced by the church) were mostly guided by what they considered at the time to be in the best interests of the aborigines. whether it was the best thing for them or not is debatable, but it sure is good fodder for the bleeding hearts to continue their bleating.

 

[2020hindsight]

"stealing" the current crop of children from many aboriginal families would be doing them a favour.

suggest you pause and listen to yourself there, disarray.
specially if that'e your only answer /consolation / comment about the last time it happened.

 

[Julia]

Julia
I don't have to answer these questions because many of the aboriginal communities already have some or all the issues in check.
The real question is why the successes in communities are not modelled elsewhere.
Unfortunately we keep hearing about the worst things impacting on or carried out by aborigines.
Maybe if more of the good stories were told on mainstream media, and not just on "Message stick TV" a few more people would get wise to what could be done.

Rob,
I completely agree. I've heard some great interviews on ABC Radio with e.g. Aboriginal surgeons.

Is part of the problem the lack of any apparent cohesion amongst indigenous leaders? I've heard Noel Pearson talk immense sense but nothing much ever seems to happen in terms of his ideas coming to reality.

Bobby,
Yep, thanks for the suggestion - agree.

Cheers
Julia

 

[macca]

Some posters have mentioned that after people have been involved with some aboriginal settlements they come away disallusioned

I recently read this book from the local library, I would expect it to be in most major libraries

Balanda my year in Arnhem Land /

This woman was involved in Aboriginal land rights in Melbourne and moved to a settlement in Arnhem Land, very factual story, I thought there was very little spin and was an interesting read.

 

[arminius]

i understand that for every positive experience we 'whites' have had with 'blacks' there are negative ones, probably two or three. there is no easy solution because its a v complex situation. the heart of the matter is, they have to assimilate to our culture. as you say dissaray, 'get on board with the rest of society or go tribal'. they have to work, get paid, buy stuff. as for not adapting, im pretty sure they did ok for, what, 100 000 years.

dissaray- fyi, the japs never intended to invade oz, and the indos couldn't anyway.

of course the abs fought back. wouldnt you if your back yard was continually 'appropriated'.
go and have a beer with Keith Windshuttle, im sure he'd appreciate talking to someone who doesnt want to smash him in the face.

anyway, i hope we can come together as a nation one day.

 

[Spaghetti]

human history abounds with migrations, displacements, massacres and assimilations. it is our nature to expand and conquer as a result for the competition for resources. the aboriginals were no different, having had their own warfare, massacres, displacements, assimilations and so on, it is the nature of our species.

in no way will i apologise to, or accept an apology on my behalf, the aboriginal people for their succumbing to the inexorable tide of human history. if it wasn't the english it would have been the french 2 weeks later, or the japanese in world war 2, or even the indonesians in more recent history. this bleeding heart "oh i am so deeply and sincerely sorry" is sycophantic liberal guilt and i will not associate myself with it in any way.

as for an earlier comment that westerners who are downtrodden would turn out like the aborigines is rubbish. the irish suffered starvation and discrimination for hundreds of years and yet have managed to create a vibrant and successful society both at home and abroad. jews were massacred in their millions (for hundred of years) and yet have managed in a short period of time to create a successful, modern society. the chinese had tens of millions of people hooked on opium and had their economy pillaged by the western colonial powers yet have managed to leverage their 1 billion peasants into an economic force.

there are many unpopular theories floating around which no one dares talk about, but which give an insight into the difference between races. the simple fact is this - not all people are created equal. some are smarter, some are dumber, some have higher visual acuity, some are physically larger. acquiant yourself with the bell curve, its just like a chart so its easy to figure out. the sooner we drop all the cultural and racial relativism crap the sooner we can have an open and honest discussion about what the problem is, and the better of we will be trying to find a solution.

we have all evolved differently to adapt to our specific environmental conditions. as a species we are superbly suited to deal with our unique environments, however the last few hundred years have seen fundamental changes to our world and how we control it, yet the rule is as simple now as it has always been - adapt or die out.

anyway imo the biggest hurdle aboriginal communities in this country face (aside for their own internal corruption) is the bleeding heart liberals who continue to carry them and "enable" their weaknesses. their choices really are simple, get on board with the rest of society or go tribal with all the negatives of health, mortality etc. that go with it. however they won't be getting their land back unless they take it by force (or we give them bits and pieces of it).

The presumption here is that we have a superior culture. That the bell curve dictates superiority of races. Trouble is one culture, one race invented the bell curve. Our culture is not that pretty in the eyes of many.

You are correct in your last paragraph in that their choices are simple. Stay tribal or assimilate. This is the problem though. They may not want to totally assimilate because our lifestyle is too foreign, however they do not want to be tribal either and yes left leaning organisations have helped facilitate this lack of choice.

There does need to be a third choice. To be able to evole their culture to current times in their own image. You mention China for eg. They are doing it. They have not done away with chinese food or many traditions. They have done it their way, becoming modern without assimilation into western culture lock, stock and barrel.

The killer paragraph is that you say humans must adapt to their environment or die out, that we must evolve to suit our environment. Well really, hear yourself, we have destroyed a people who did exactly that.

 

[wayneL]

as for an earlier comment that westerners who are downtrodden would turn out like the aborigines is rubbish. the irish suffered starvation and discrimination for hundreds of years and yet have managed to create a vibrant and successful society both at home and abroad. jews were massacred in their millions (for hundred of years) and yet have managed in a short period of time to create a successful, modern society. the chinese had tens of millions of people hooked on opium and had their economy pillaged by the western colonial powers yet have managed to leverage their 1 billion peasants into an economic force.

Your other points from this post, though many will disagree, might be valid, but this above paragraph is rubbish.

To try to compare the plight of Aborigines to these other peoples is not possible. Sure they had a hell of a time, but there are huge differences in cultural aspect. All of these reacted with activism of some description to get where they are now... and have had a lot more time AND weight of numbers to do it.

I'd love to ramble on about this point more, but I'm sure someone more educated than me will take up the batten.

FWIW I live in a town with a big A population and most get by without causing any problems, there is only a hard core of about 100 who cause all the nonsense, so my JP mate tells me. For the amount of overt racism I see here, they're doin' pretty damn good.

One thing I agree on, we must evolve the situation from where it stands now, ... doesn't really do anyone any good except bureaucrats IMO.

 

[Spaghetti]

Indians are the most successful migrants in the western world. They earn more than any ethnic group (including Europeans) and have the highest number of professionals on a percentage basis. This is true here, in the US and in the UK.

With Dissaray's logic we should all adopt Indians as leaders of the free world. They have, against all odds, become the most successful at adapting to their new environment.

Can Dissaray accept this scenario and adapt to eating curry. I wouldn't mind, love a good curry but I do hate cricket.

 

[Dukey]

......

FWIW I live in a town with a big A population and most get by without causing any problems, there is only a hard core of about 100 who cause all the nonsense, so my JP mate tells me. For the amount of overt racism I see here, they're doin' pretty damn good.

One thing I agree on, we must evolve the situation from where it stands now, ... doesn't really do anyone any good except bureaucrats IMO.

I agree Wayne - If I faced the racist crap they put up with every day - I`d be a terrorist.

Following this thread I have read a number of disturbing posts. Posts that recall to me some shameful aspects of Aussie culture. Of these – Racism is the worst and unfortunately it is still very common. It's shameful to me because I'm an Aussie in Japan and I have to warn my Japanese friends who are invariably exited before visiting Australia, that occasionally, some Aussies might be less than friendly or downright racist towards them.
I can only be happy that this attitude is less common than it used to be.

As a born and bred North Queensland Aussie - I would like to state my view here that any kind of racism is UNAUSTRALIAN to the utmost – because it flies in the face of some sacred tenets of our unique culture.

One thing Australia has prided itself on since ?? the arrival of white-fellas I guess – is the idea of 'a fair go for all'. I'm sure most of you guys find the term falling naturally out of your mouths occasionally. 'Fair go mate'. 'Fair crack of the whip!'.
But Disarray & Flying Fish.... have you ever really thought about what it actually means???????

ALL means EVERYONE... Thats EVERY PERSON.
It doesn't mean 'a fair go for me and mine and the rest can go F%$ck themselves!!!!'

It doesn't mean 'a fair go for people who look like me and anyone who looks different can go jump'.

Another idea common to True Blue Aussies is 'you don't kick someone when he's down'. Instead you 'lend a hand'. and 'give him a fair go... mate'. You give him a hand up and help him to help himself regain some dignity and self respect. Of course it's easier said than done but we have to ask... Have Aboriginal Aussies ever had a 'fair go' ... since we arrived?

The other classic is the 'rule' common' to almost every religion or belief system: The golden rule – Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself (ie. with RESPECT). The Christian version: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Sorry to say I don't see any of this great Australian spirit – this 'bigness of heart', nor any semblance of simple human respect - in your posts guys.
I only see the 'cold as steel' tough luck mate sentiments .
A few years back, in Germany, the 'rule of the strong ma jority' resulted in the near annihilation of the weaker minority. It was a bit more blatant than is/has been the case here. But the result is not so different. Of course that **** happens all over the place – but it doesn't make it right.

.......

 

[Santob]

Racism WAS institutional in Australia (White Australia Policy) - so to say racism is Un-Australian is not quite true.

Editted to add - things had improved a significatn lot, but the Howard governments fearmongering is taking that Australia back down that insitutional path.

 

[purple]

Another idea common to True Blue Aussies is 'you don't kick someone when he's down'. Instead you 'lend a hand'. and 'give him a fair go... mate'. You give him a hand up and help him to help himself regain some dignity and self respect. Of course it's easier said than done but we have to ask... Have Aboriginal Aussies ever had a 'fair go' ... since we arrived?

.......

yeah, but do they take the initiative when given the fair go?

I was deep in bush country Laverton, WA, doing community work with the AB population there. it's a mix I say. the elders had genuine concern for the younger population and were working with governmental workers to introduce programs/classes for the youth to better themselves.

I was helping out with the basic construction program, where we laid concrete slabs. Good program, lots of learning, but the youth had to be dragged there to do some of the work. getting into it for a few hours and they shot off for a game of basketball and never returned.

in my opinion, they do receive their 'fair go'. but they lack the want, the initiative to keep on improving themselves.

i'm not saying the whole population is lazy. the community elders were working at it. they had a vision. but the enthusiasm had not caught on.

 

[BIG BWACULL]

The 2007 Young Australian of the Year is Tania Major, the youngest person ever elected to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission. Major is a Kokoberra woman from Kowanyama, Queensland, and has raised awareness on a number of issues concerning the welfare of young Indigenous people, notably in education and health.

Tania Major came to public attention three years ago as the youngest person ever elected to ATSIC. She broke the ice of public discussion about a number of issues concerning the welfare of young Indigenous people when she was featured on national television programs such as Four Corners and 60 Minutes. She made some people feel very uncomfortable, and was happy to do so. She spoke directly and very publicly to the prime minister and other opinion leaders about the appalling secrets of domestic violence in her community in the belief that the best way to represent her people was to tell the truth. Tania is the only person within her community to complete a university degree; indeed, she's the only one to have successfully completed Year 12. Tania has become a role model not only for Indigenous youth, but also for all young Australian's.

 

[disarray]

ok here we go ...

suggest you pause and listen to yourself there, disarray.
specially if that'e your only answer /consolation / comment about the last time it happened.

so you think the aboriginies are doing fine by themselves and the current state of affairs with rampant substance abuse, criminality, sexual abuse and domestic violence is acceptable? if not, feel free to propose a new and novel solution.

the heart of the matter is, they have to assimilate to our culture. as you say dissaray, 'get on board with the rest of society or go tribal'. they have to work, get paid, buy stuff

glad we agree

as for not adapting, im pretty sure they did ok for, what, 100 000 years

yeah that was great for them. the world has changed somewhat in the last few hundred years however.

fyi, the japs never intended to invade oz, and the indos couldn't anyway

the japanese planned to invade australia as a strategic move to isolate america in the area, not to settle it. and the indonesians could quite easily move into australia if the only them between them and it was aboriginals living in a tribal state. however with a modern, western civilisation in place to defend it i don't think they could launch a successful invasion either (especially considering their army is mostly occupied with keeping the country together)

go and have a beer with Keith Windshuttle, im sure he'd appreciate talking to someone who doesnt want to smash him in the face

???

The presumption here is that we have a superior culture

no the presumption is that we have a DOMINANT culture.

That the bell curve dictates superiority of races

no the bell curve dictates DIFFERENCE between races. your leap to conclusions has clouded much of your reply so i'll leave it at that.

The killer paragraph is that you say humans must adapt to their environment or die out, that we must evolve to suit our environment. Well really, hear yourself, we have destroyed a people who did exactly that

environments change. yes they adapted to the environment at the time, now it has changed. evolution is not static, however the principles remain the same.

To try to compare the plight of Aborigines to these other peoples is not possible. Sure they had a hell of a time, but there are huge differences in cultural aspect. All of these reacted with activism of some description to get where they are now... and have had a lot more time AND weight of numbers to do it

ahhh so cultures AREN'T equal. some are more adaptible to extreme changes in environment and react more positively to adversity perhaps? glad we agree.

btw the irish potato famine was in 1845 and killed up to 1 million people. so 57 years AFTER australia was settled by white colonists more irish died than inhabited australia at the time. the holocaust which killed 6 million jews (6 times the aboriginal population in australia at the time of white settlement) happened only 60 years ago. and the opium wars happened 60 years after white settlement of australia as well.

so if the irish, jews and chinese can "react with activism" as you put it, and achieve a favourable outcome, we must ask the question why are large numbers of aboriginals living in abject poverty? we have had successive waves of immigration from europe, south east asia and the middle east, within the last 50 years, many of whom arrive with nothing and fleeing extreme trauma, yet manage to integrate successfully?

With Dissaray's logic we should all adopt Indians as leaders of the free world. They have, against all odds, become the most successful at adapting to their new environment

this is just stupid. while indians are successful merchants their mass migration has occurred relatively recently into cohesive, modern, established, stable and strong western societies, and they have integrated extremely well. on the other hand white settlers arrived in an australia inhabited by primative tribesmen with little cohesion outside localised tribes and no technology.

It's shameful to me because I'm an Aussie in Japan and I have to warn my Japanese friends who are invariably exited before visiting Australia, that occasionally, some Aussies might be less than friendly or downright racist towards them

i just returned from japan. my girlfriend is japanese. i am such a racist for thinking the way i do. protip: the japanese are more racist than us, gaijin.

One thing Australia has prided itself on since ?? the arrival of white-fellas I guess – is the idea of 'a fair go for all'. I'm sure most of you guys find the term falling naturally out of your mouths occasionally. 'Fair go mate'. 'Fair crack of the whip!'.
But Disarray & Flying Fish.... have you ever really thought about what it actually means?

yes i have, but have you? the bleeding hearts have hijacked "a fair go" to mean we must all bend over backwards and accomodate everyone and everything and carry all the weak along with us so they can have the same rewards as everyone. i disagree with this assessment.

i think a "fair go" is a two way street, an expansion of the social compact if you will. IF you work hard, take advantage of opportunities offered to you (such as, oh i don't know, free education and healthcare perhaps) THEN you can have access to the rewards greater society has to offer. the "fair go" aspect means you can COMPETE for these rewards without having to fight through discrimination or have obstacles placed in your path because of your race / creed / religion whatever, which i think western society does extremely well. you ever tried to do business in asia???

i do agree with your following paragraph that when someone falls we pick them up, dust them off, HOWEVER they must then get back to work if they are able. aborigines are given preference in education, government jobs (native only jobs aboud in the civil services) and access to goverment funds. they are hardly being kept down by "the man"

I only see the 'cold as steel' tough luck mate sentiments .
A few years back, in Germany, the 'rule of the strong ma jority' resulted in the near annihilation of the weaker minority. It was a bit more blatant than is/has been the case here. But the result is not so different. Of course that **** happens all over the place – but it doesn't make it right

your assessment of "tough luck" is inaccurate. i (and everyone else i would image) firmly believe aboriginals should be given help, however they MUST MUST MUST help themselves because we cannot do it for them. we have thrown billions at them and yet they languish. we must take a step back, look at it calmly, logically, raltionally and without emotion (like investing really) as ask the tough questions. i don't see that happening, what i see instead is handwringing, recrimination and attacks on people who try to do so.

p.s. grats on bringing in the nazi reference. it wouldn't be an internet discussion without it i do admire your idealism though.

 

[Spaghetti]

Disarray

You do not make sense.

Dominance rules?

So you would accept a takover bid by another country? Is that what you say? Afterall that would fit todays western culture, a sell out.