Aboriginal?

Rafa · 7 June 2007

I think the answer is apparent....
Aborigines need to start fighting hard for themselves using any means possible...
thats the way the jews and the Irish got out of their plight... i.e. demanding a piece of land i.e Israel, or going into the new land (America/Australia)...

disarray · 7 June 2007

Spaghetti said:
Disarray

You do not make sense.

Dominance rules?

So you would accept a takover bid by another country? Is that what you say? Afterall that would fit todays western culture, a sell out.

wtf are you talking about? i originally stated that people aren't created equal. i didn't say anyone was better or worse, just that different races and cultures were DIFFERENT.

then you jump in with the assumption that i am saying we are superior. i'm not saying we are superior, i am saying we are dominant. this means we make the rules, the systems, the game. aborigines can either play our game or go off and make their own, but if they want access to what our civilisation offers (first world living) then they have to play it our way. i don't know where you are getting this crazy idea that we should be taken over or whatever.

i do agree with you though, our culture has sold out, and we have become fat (obesity epidemic), lazy (needing to import foreign labour to do unpleasant jobs) and greedy (multiple cars, plasma tv's while complaining about mortgage repayments)

Spaghetti · 7 June 2007

disarray said:
wtf are you talking about? i originally stated that people aren't created equal. i didn't say anyone was better or worse, just that different races and cultures were DIFFERENT.

then you jump in with the assumption that i am saying we are superior. i'm not saying we are superior, i am saying we are dominant. this means we make the rules, the systems, the game. aborigines can either play our game or go off and make their own, but if they want access to what our civilisation offers (first world living) then they have to play it our way. i don't know where you are getting this crazy idea that we should be taken over or whatever.

i do agree with you though, our culture has sold out, and we have become fat (obesity epidemic), lazy (needing to import foreign labour to do unpleasant jobs) and greedy (multiple cars, plasma tv's while complaining about mortgage repayments)

Disarray

You say we make the rules, we decide the systems, we decide the games we play.

So I am deciding, as the dominant force, that I really would love that aboriginal culture would receive more recognition and become more inclusive for all Australians. That we would be better off in every way, culturally, economically and in health, education and sport if we empowered the aboriginal people to move forward in their own way. That as a nation we would all be better prepared for the future if we learn and appreciate land management techniques from aboriginal people and accept they probably did have the environment better managed than we have.

So as part of a dominant race as you suggest I actually have the right to demand all this.

disarray · 7 June 2007

you does not = we

demand all you want, its everyone elses demands you need to manage if you want something done your way. might i suggest a career in politics, at least your heart is in the right place and you can't be any worse than what we have

wayneL · 7 June 2007

disarray said:
ahhh so cultures AREN'T equal. some are more adaptible to extreme changes in environment and react more positively to adversity perhaps? glad we agree.

btw the irish potato famine was in 1845 and killed up to 1 million people. so 57 years AFTER australia was settled by white colonists more irish died than inhabited australia at the time. the holocaust which killed 6 million jews (6 times the aboriginal population in australia at the time of white settlement) happened only 60 years ago. and the opium wars happened 60 years after white settlement of australia as well.

so if the irish, jews and chinese can "react with activism" as you put it, and achieve a favourable outcome, we must ask the question why are large numbers of aboriginals living in abject poverty? we have had successive waves of immigration from europe, south east asia and the middle east, within the last 50 years, many of whom arrive with nothing and fleeing extreme trauma, yet manage to integrate successfully?

Of course there are differences in culture... and you are still comparing apples to oranges.

The jews, waves of immigrants etc although experiencing racism as well, did have the advantage of an analogous culture. As I have pointed out, these peoples also have had several centuries of development within the judeo/christian cultural context to sort them selves out. Aborigines do not have that advantage. Their original culture is radically different to ours.

It was only ~50 years ago that aborigines were not even considered citizens of Oz. Before then they were basically considered and treated as sub-human. Many still hold this view... apparently Therefore your comparisons are invalid and disingenuous at best.

That is a lot to deal with for any group of people and I'm sure that with time, they will sort themselves out. I certainly see evidence of this happening first hand.

disarray · 7 June 2007

wayneL said:
Of course there are differences in culture... and you are still comparing apples to oranges.

i'm not comparing apples to oranges if all people (and by extension, cultures) are equal. are we all equal or not??? this is where the cultural relativists get their panties in a bunch - if we are all equal then all rules and examples apply equally. if we aren't equal then we must admit that fact which they refuse to do.

The jews, waves of immigrants etc although experiencing racism as well, did have the advantage of an analogous culture. As I have pointed out, these peoples also have had several centuries of development within the judeo/christian cultural context to sort them selves out. Aborigines do not have that advantage. Their original culture is radically different to ours.

granted, but that disadvantage is being offset by MASSIVE assistance provided by the government which other immigrants have not had access to.

It was only ~50 years ago that aborigines were not even considered citizens of Oz. Before then they were basically considered and treated as sub-human. Many still hold this view... apparently Therefore your comparisons are invalid and disingenuous at best.

it was only 30 years ago that the first vietnamese immigrants landed on these shores fleeing war and poverty in their home country. they came from a radically different culture, they had a language barrier, they faced racism and they had access to only a fraction of the government support that aborigines had access to. yet vietnamese are now a strong and vibrant part of our social fabric. so once again i put the question, if we are all equal, why have the vietnamese, who were in a similar situation to the aborigines with regards to disadvantage, able to succeed while the aborigines do not?

That is a lot to deal with for any group of people and I'm sure that with time, they will sort themselves out. I certainly see evidence of this happening first hand.

i'm sure they will sort themselves out, keyword being THEMSELVES. hence the need for a shift away from hand holding and "enabling".

might i ask your first hand experience in seeing improvement in the aboriginal situation?

Spaghetti · 7 June 2007

disarray said:
i'm not comparing apples to oranges if all people (and by extension, cultures) are equal. are we all equal or not??? this is where the cultural relativists get their panties in a bunch - if we are all equal then all rules and examples apply equally. if we aren't equal then we must admit that fact which they refuse to do.
granted, but that disadvantage is being offset by MASSIVE assistance provided by the government which other immigrants have not had access to.

Dissaray

Other immigrants?

They are not immigrants.

Click to expand...

Dukey · 7 June 2007

Santob said:
Racism WAS institutional in Australia (White Australia Policy) - so to say racism is Un-Australian is not quite true.

Editted to add - things had improved a significatn lot, but the Howard governments fearmongering is taking that Australia back down that insitutional path.

Good points Santob. I guess I was saying that Racism doesn't fit with the 'fair go mate' etc Aussie ideals. The government on the other hand - well - thats another story altogether - phoney children overboard claims just before an election and all the rest of it. Can't wait to see the tricks in the next election.

purple said:
yeah, but do they take the initiative when given the fair go? .........

Yep - another good point. I've seen the same thing myself with young kids squandering great opportunities. But I think non-aboriginal kids are much the same there. Adolescents often just choose to be with their mates - they even cop a pasting for being 'good'. And the mates will beat the elders most of the time... maybe they were just too young?

--------------

Disarray - interesting that you too have spent some time in Japan. Seems to be a few of us here. Yes some Japanese are quite racist - there is a definite 'cultural superiority' complex happening here I think - especially with regard to other Asian cultures. I'm lucky being in Okinawa - people here are more accepting simply cause they've had no choice over the years of occupation. I know business men sometimes spit towards gaijins in the mainland cities - I have never experienced that.
As for the word gaijin - its a bit of a laugh really I think. I believe (though not 100% sure) the kanji can be translated as 'foreigner' or 'alien'. For some reason the 'alien' translation has stuck. Of course if you stay in the US (not sure of Oz) beyond your visa you are an 'illegal alien' - so it's much the same. I've seen shocked looks on Japanese faces when some official asks to see my "alien" card - and I raise my two fingers behind my head like antennae. All good fun really.

As for "carrying the weak" - then actually yes I think that is a part of the built in compassion of a healthy modern society. The alternative is to just let 'the weak' slip through the cracks and rot under the feet of 'the strong'.

BUT that assumes that aboriginals are weak - I don't believe they are weak at all. They are a strong, proud people and have much to be proud of.
However at this time, in some places - they are coming from such a position of disadvantage (entrenched over many generations) that the 'victim' mindset/culture has set in.

This is where we might agree!! - I appreciate your point about so-called 'do-gooders' (though like 2020's - I don't appreciate the term) - too much of the wrong kind of help just reinforces the 'victim' mentality. It's 'sit-down' money and grog that are the enemy now.
'Sit-down' (dole) money is the wrong kind of help. It has created a culture of dependence, loss of self respect and problems like abuse and alcoholism.
BUT – and this is an important point - We - our governments - did that. Sit-down money is a white fella idea. There are thousands upon thousands of Australians from ALL sub-groups taking sit-down money who do nothing but piss it up against the wall or buy drugs with it, abuse their families and then ask for more cash for food when the weeks money is gone.
Aussie aboriginals don't have a monopoly on that.
Just as importantly - those who do make a go of it like Tania Major get very little kudos - at least in the media where it counts. Role models are important.

My worth (...again!!)
- would like to have a go at Julias (?) 'policy' questions later tonight.
and it would be great to get some input from Aboriginal aussies themselves... What do you guys think about all this kerfuffle??

2020hindsight · 7 June 2007

disarray said:
so you think the aboriginies are doing fine by themselves and the current state of affairs with rampant substance abuse, criminality, sexual abuse and domestic violence is acceptable? if not, feel free to propose a new and novel solution.

Disarray,
this was your reply to my post that the stolen generation and their parents deserved some sympathy.

Can I just ask you this

How would you feel if your kids were taken away from you? .

and lets not bring in a lot of bs side issues .

wayneL · 7 June 2007

disarray said:
i'm sure they will sort themselves out, keyword being THEMSELVES. hence the need for a shift away from hand holding and "enabling".

might i ask your first hand experience in seeing improvement in the aboriginal situation?

Well I'm sure we good argue on what we disagree on and get nowhere, so I'll focus on points of agreement.

Your above comment I agree with, but is contingent upon whitefella not dis-enabling. This will be a problem (though gradually getting better IMO)

First hand? Have gotten to know a few here in Gero and a lot are trying to take the initiative to sort themselves and their people out. Some positive steps at least. They still cop behind the back racism though by a surprising number of people. I am continuously shocked by what comes out of people mouths from the most unexpected quarters.

This is where we should concentrate efforts I reckon... let them get on with it.

BIG BWACULL · 7 June 2007

We need to lift our game

The 40th anniversary of the 1967 Referendum that allowed Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to be counted as citizens should be a time to pause and reflect – have we really done enough? For Red Cross, sadly the answer is no. Red Cross acknowledges and accepts that past government and community practices, policies and attitudes have had a detrimental and long-lasting impact on the social, economic, cultural and spiritual lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and their families. These impacts are still felt today. We see it daily in our work in Indigenous communities. So collectively, have we really done enough? The mission of Red Cross is to improve the lives of vulnerable people by mobilising the power of humanity. While we have rightly sought to improve the conditions and lives of those overseas affected by wars and disasters, we have not done the same for our Indigenous Australians. The unacceptably poor health, education, and social indicators for those living in Indigenous communities means we have not really understood how to effectively support them and reverse the trends. They continue to experience the impacts of systemic long-term racism and discrimination. So where do we go from here? For Red Cross, we have committed ourselves nationally to work with and support Indigenous people and help future generations.
Our work on Palm Island, Woorabinda, Lockhart River and in the major urban communities is but a small start. We are making efforts all over Australia through our Breakfast clubs, youth mentoring programs, alcohol and drug initiatives and community development projects. It is now one of our highest priorities. Red Cross encourages all Australians to take account of this critical humanitarian issue and collectively commit to supporting Indigenous Australians. Whilst the 40th anniversary may be something to celebrate, more importantly it should be a time for all Australians to take stock. We all need to lift our game.

GREG GOEBEL
Qld Executive Director
Australian Red Cross

Spaghetti · 7 June 2007

The abuse of children and women is unacceptable. A recent UN report stated Australia has a huge problem and we do. Across all races.

Why, because we discard anyone who is unable to keep up with the money train.

Too many of us are in dissaray. To be honest.

If you look at Indians for eg. They are the most successful immigrants on the planet. If you think about it, why isn't India a successful country? They have the so called bell curve attributes. Because they do operate on "a who is strongest" wins. The rich in India are very very rich. The poor are very very poor. A perfect blueprint of a country for Disarray.

Now look at Norway. A country rich on resources yet a country that shares it's wealth and commits to all it's people. It continually tops best country in every survey happening.

So what model do we prefer?

disarray · 7 June 2007

Spaghetti said:
They are not immigrants.

EVERYONE is an immigrant. they just arrived before whites, but after other aborigines. they are not an amorphous mass of blackfellas, they represent successive waves of human migration.

check out https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html

dukey]As for "carrying the weak" - then actually yes I think that is a part of the built in compassion of a healthy modern society. The alternative is to just let 'the weak' slip through the cracks and rot under the feet of 'the strong'[/quote] good post dukey. i agree that compassion is the measure of an advanced and successful society said:
Now look at Norway. A country rich on resources yet a country that shares it's wealth and commits to all it's people. It continually tops best country in every survey happening.

actually norway is in a shocking state with muslim immigrants. best intentions have created massive social problems which will lead, ultimately, to chaos and yes, disarray.

because we discard anyone who is unable to keep up with the money train

its better now than it has ever been in history, however there is, as always, room for improvement.

BIG BWACULL · 7 June 2007

Aboriginal Diggers

Sacrifices honoured
‘...Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning. We will remember them.’
And so the service and sacrifice of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander servicemen and women was remembered in moving Australia-wide Reconciliation Week ceremonies last week.

BIG BWACULL · 7 June 2007

Beattie lauds Cape York Indigenous land deal Thursday, June 7, 2007

Queensland Premier Peter Beattie says a historic agreement has been reached on land use on Cape York Peninsula.

Mr Beattie has introduced laws into Parliament today setting out which land will be protected and areas that can be used for agriculture or aquaculture.

Aboriginal rangers will be put in charge of managing wild rivers.

Mr Beattie has told Parliament the Indigenous community, conservationists, the mining industry and pastoralists should be congratulated for their cooperation.

"The agreement reaches common ground between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people and between conservation and development interests," he said.

"It is a framework for the future to undertake ecologically sustainable development in the region."

Mr Beattie says there will also be a study into whether crocodile products can be turned into a commercial venture.

Spaghetti · 7 June 2007

Some of my favourite stories.

In Cairns an old whitey.

Trouble with those silly buggers is they drink under a tree in full view of everyone, we have the sense to take our bottle inside!

In Clermont,

At the Clermont Show a huge fire surged up at an exihibit and an aboriginal said. Jesus glad I wasnt by that, what they trying to do? char us blacker than we are already!

And Gundagai. The whiteys move in and see perfect flat land. So they reckon good spot for a barbie and a few hundred houses. The local aborigines said, no mate bad spot. I mean what would they know?. Anyways the river rose telling us that flat land adjacent to a river usually meant a flood plain and plenty lost their life that day. The ones saved were by aborigines who had the sense to live on high ground and took to rafts to pull us out of the raging torrents.

Not sure who will save those on the Gold Coast as it is also a flood plain and if climate change eventuates it will be one almighty mess, however we know best so it will sort itself, I am sure.

2020hindsight · 7 June 2007

disarray said:
if i was an unfit parent then it would be for the best. if i wasn't an unfit parent then it wouldn't be an issue.

you are agreeing with me then. The stolen generation had nothing to do with fitness for parenthood. You are a perfect parent I take it. They could have taken your kids. End of story.

the stolen generation has to be put into the context of its time. people are busy looking at the policy through modern eyes going "omg that terrible how could we?" but the fact is the government and the church at the time etc etc
...
there is a lot of grey area and emotion wrapped up in the whole debate, and this emotion skews perspective..

Disarray,
sure there is a lot of emotion wrapped up in it. Try asking the people involved - they are the ones entitled to emotion - not the people who hijacked/ kidnapped em. The only emotion they should have is shame.

As for the subsequent behaviour of AB's, ever heard of mitigating circumstances ?

Not to extend em any sympathy, and worse to refuse even to apologise, is to be part of the problem, - such people obviously won't be much help in the solution.

I reckon that moment when the AB leaders turned their back on Howard in Parliament one of the greatest moments in their post 1788 history. A dignified black response to undignified white behaviour.

Here (on another issue) is something from recent UK news:-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1087592.ece

Spaghetti · 7 June 2007

BIG BWACULL said:
Beattie lauds Cape York Indigenous land deal Thursday, June 7, 2007

Big Bwacull,

Not sure if there is real agreement on this. I am not updated so maybe the state government has allowed a lot more than before when basically they said the communties could only use the rivers for eco tourism and non invasive fishing.

If they have expanded rights to develop then a good thing. Otherwise it is just a piece of paper, saying not only nothing will change but that nothing CAN change.

2020hindsight · 7 June 2007

2020hindsight said:
...Not to extend em any sympathy, and worse to refuse even to apologise, is to be part of the problem, - such people obviously won't be much help in the solution.

And btw, as for the possible if but maybe legal ramifications of an apology,

Why would you deny them their rights?
Are we no better than James Hardie directors, etc, who would stall forever if they could get away with it?
(Or cigarette companies , puke )

If these people have legally justifiable claims (on Aus Govt or the churches or whomever), so be it.
If the UK kids brought out and "lost" to their parents have legal claims (on UK govt) so be it.
The legal system, and Justice are (or should be) blind.

Sometimes you'd think the law is an ass - and was blind drunk - but that's another story.

The fact that SOME of the 1.9% of the current Aus population - who make up the AB's (366,000 - about the same as the estimated population of 350,000 at time of white colonization) might use their rights under Aus law, well - that's just ...justice.

Same way we would holler if Forbes didnt get his justice in Sudan.

Spaghetti · 7 June 2007

2020

Great point. It is our culture (the dominant culture of course) that has decided that compensation is payable when a wrong is commited.

Aboriginal?

Rafa

disarray

Spaghetti

disarray

wayneL

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

disarray

Spaghetti

Dukey

2020hindsight

wayneL

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

BIG BWACULL

Spaghetti

disarray

BIG BWACULL

Attachments

BIG BWACULL

Spaghetti

2020hindsight

Attachments

Spaghetti

2020hindsight

Spaghetti

Similar threads

Aboriginal?

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

Attachments

Attachments

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency