Social Engineering

[TikoMike]

1. Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun"

2. Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

3. Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

4. Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

5. Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

6. Quran 4:34: "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them."

7. Quran 4:24 "Forbidden to you are married women, except those whom you own as slave

Interesting that people still don't see Islam as being evil.

 

[cynic]

1. Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun"

2. Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

3. Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

4. Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

5. Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

6. Quran 4:34: "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them."

7. Quran 4:24 "Forbidden to you are married women, except those whom you own as slave

Interesting that people still don't see Islam as being evil.

Some interesting excerpts!
Were those in keeping with the surrounding context?
Out of interest, have you read the Quran in its entirety?
I haven't, but based upon the muslims I have personally encountered, a number of those cited verses , do not appear to be truly representative of their lifestyle.

 

[luutzu]

1. Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun"

2. Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

3. Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

4. Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

5. Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

6. Quran 4:34: "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them."

7. Quran 4:24 "Forbidden to you are married women, except those whom you own as slave

Interesting that people still don't see Islam as being evil.

We wouldn't be able to find the equivalent in the good Christian and Jewish bible?

And have you seen what "Christians" have been doing around the world the past 500 odd years? It makes Chin Shi Huang's book burning and burying alive scholars look like a prank around the camp fire.

 

[TikoMike]

Nice, good to know that you guys support beating up your wife if she disobeys you. Cynic then I would welcome those people you mention because they aren't Islam if they are not following the rules of the Quran

 

[TikoMike]

We wouldn't be able to find the equivalent in the good Christian and Jewish bible?

And have you seen what "Christians" have been doing around the world the past 500 odd years? It makes Chin Shi Huang's book burning and burying alive scholars look like a prank around the camp fire.

Luutzu, happy to do a comparison count of you finding all the evil verses in the old testament vs the Quran. There are many more where that came from. PS Not religious by the way before anyone uses ad hominem.

 

[luutzu]

Luutzu, happy to do a comparison count of you finding all the evil verses in the old testament vs the Quran. There are many more where that came from. PS Not religious by the way before anyone uses ad hominem.

Have you met Value Collector

All religious text are full of violence and rubbish. Most who follow it ignore a whole lot of stuff, get to the bits where if they go worship daily/weekly, pay a fee to the preacher and volunteer to clean up or recruit, they have a good chance of going to Heaven.

 

[cynic]

Nice, good to know that you guys support beating up your wife if she disobeys you. Cynic then I would welcome those people you mention because they aren't Islam if they are not following the rules of the Quran

Where in my post did you identify me as expressing support for the beating of wives?!

Please do me the courtesy of quoting me correctly, or not at all!

 

[TikoMike]

Where in my post did you identify me as expressing support for the beating of wives?!

Please do me the courtesy of quoting me correctly, or not at all!

I was being sarcastic given I thought you were defending those verses. You can google just the verse numbers itself and see the context.

 

[cynic]

I was being sarcastic given I thought you were defending those verses. You can google just the verse numbers itself and see the context.

Okay, thanks for clarifying.
From your responses, would I be correct in deducing that you haven't read the Quran in its entirety?

Would I also be correct in deducing, that you hold a preference to judging adherence to Islam, based upon departure from a select few, isolated samplings, rather than observation of the overall level of adherence to the doctrine in its entirety?

 

[TikoMike]

Okay, thanks for clarifying.
From your responses, would I be correct in deducing that you haven't read the Quran in its entirety?

Would I also be correct in deducing, that you hold a preference to judging adherence to Islam, based upon departure from a select few, isolated samplings, rather than observation of the overall level of adherence to the doctrine in its entirety?

No I haven't, most would probably have not either what is your point? I once saw a debate where a "Muslim" girl couldn't even name the five pillars of her faith and she got caught out for that. Sometimes these people just don't know the full extent of their religion and just label themselves as such. But does it still make those verses any less evil? I don't know what preferences you are referring to, but I read and I see that it's ok to beat your wife if she disobeys you or behead all non-believers and make my judgement from what I have read as being evil, as simple as that. If I'm not mistaken, your logic is because the Quran has some good parts then it should excuse the bad parts like beating your wife? Is that right?

 

[cynic]

No I haven't, most would probably have not either what is your point? I once saw a debate where a "Muslim" girl couldn't even name the five pillars of her faith and she got caught out for that. Sometimes these people just don't know the full extent of their religion and just label themselves as such. But does it still make those verses any less evil? I don't know what preferences you are referring to, but I read and I see that it's ok to beat your wife if she disobeys you or behead all non-believers and make my judgement from what I have read as being evil, as simple as that. If I'm not mistaken, your logic is because the Quran has some good parts then it should excuse the bad parts like beating your wife? Is that right?

You have quoted a select few, out of many verses, to support your comment about people not "seeing Islam as being evil".
You have further stated, in your response to myself, with words to the effect that people "aren't Islam if they are not following the rules of the Quran".

I happen to be someone, like yourself, who hasn't engaged in extensive studies of Islam.
So I do not feel that I understand the tree well enough, to confidently predict the fruit it will produce.
So I have chosen to judge the tree, to date, according to the fruit that I happen to have witnessed it producing.

Rather than accede to an invitation to excuse specific verses, based upon the presence of others, my preference is to highlight my concerns, about the generalisation of the muslim populace, by hypothetical application of a similar methodology and logic to your own.

If one were to "cherry pick" a few verses from the Quran, which clearly extolled the virtues of peaceful behaviour and prohibited needlessly harmful acts in relation to the treatment of others, would one then be entitled to declare that many of the jihadi terrorist acts, witnessed to date, were not performed by true practitioners of Islam, because they were "not following the rules of the Quran" ?

Edit: futhermore,would one also be then entitled to express amazement, at people still not recognising Islam as being good?

 

[TikoMike]

You have quoted a select few, out of many verses, to support your comment about people not "seeing Islam as being evil".
You have further stated, in your response to myself, with words to the effect that people "aren't Islam if they are not following the rules of the Quran".

I happen to be someone, like yourself, who hasn't engaged in extensive studies of Islam.
So I do not feel that I understand the tree well enough, to confidently predict the fruit it will produce.
So I have chosen to judge the tree, to date, according to the fruit that I happen to have witnessed it producing.

Rather than accede to an invitation to excuse specific verses, based upon the presence of others, my preference is to highlight my concerns, about the generalisation of the muslim populace, by hypothetical application of a similar methodology and logic to your own.

If one were to "cherry pick" a few verses from the Quran, which clearly extolled the virtues of peaceful behaviour and prohibited needlessly harmful acts in relation to the treatment of others, would one then be entitled to declare that many of the jihadi terrorist acts, witnessed to date, were not performed by true practitioners of Islam, because they were "not following the rules of the Quran" ?

Edit: futhermore,would one also be then entitled to express amazement, at people still not recognising Islam as being good?

Why are you all of sudden trying to talk like an academic and using words that are not commonly used? But anyway I will try to answer with what I am interpreting what you are trying to say.

If I am cherry picking verses then you are also cherry picking just the "virtuous" verses to say that it is not evil, so it's a fallacy to use that argument. By the way there are many many more "evil" verses than the ones I quoted.

Regarding the Jihadi part, oh but there is a high chance they are following all the rules of the Quran, one might say better than any other so called follower of Islam. They behead all non-believers and have their wives covered and beat the **** out of them if they don't obey. They will also face a cow towards the city of Mecca, cut its throat and let it bleed out before eating it for it to be halal. It would seem they follow much of it to a tee. How is it that you know they don't follow the "virtuous" parts of the Quran, are you with them 24/7 and also know how often they pray? You can watch how faithful they are to Islam with the beheadings, the stoning of women and other violent parts of the Quran available on many "watch people die" websites showing these videos. There is usually a new video of these acts every day popping up showing how faithful they are to Islam.

 

[fiftyeight]

You have quoted a select few, out of many verses, to support your comment about people not "seeing Islam as being evil".
You have further stated, in your response to myself, with words to the effect that people "aren't Islam if they are not following the rules of the Quran".

I happen to be someone, like yourself, who hasn't engaged in extensive studies of Islam.
So I do not feel that I understand the tree well enough, to confidently predict the fruit it will produce.
So I have chosen to judge the tree, to date, according to the fruit that I happen to have witnessed it producing.

Rather than accede to an invitation to excuse specific verses, based upon the presence of others, my preference is to highlight my concerns, about the generalisation of the muslim populace, by hypothetical application of a similar methodology and logic to your own.

If one were to "cherry pick" a few verses from the Quran, which clearly extolled the virtues of peaceful behaviour and prohibited needlessly harmful acts in relation to the treatment of others, would one then be entitled to declare that many of the jihadi terrorist acts, witnessed to date, were not performed by true practitioners of Islam, because they were "not following the rules of the Quran" ?

Edit: futhermore,would one also be then entitled to express amazement, at people still not recognising Islam as being good?

If theists quote ancient texts as reason to support their argument or persecute homosexuals for example, then using the same logic atheists are reasonable in "cherry picking" less flattering verses.

 

[cynic]

If theists quote ancient texts as reason to support their argument or persecute homosexuals for example, then using the same logic atheists are reasonable in "cherry picking" less flattering verses.

When did I ever say that cherry picking of verses, in pursuit of one's hateful agenda, was reasonable?
I believe that my posts here are highlighting the irrationality of such an approach!!
Was I failing to deliver on the abovementioned intention?

 

[cynic]

Why are you all of sudden trying to talk like an academic and using words that are not commonly used? But anyway I will try to answer with what I am interpreting what you are trying to say.

If I am cherry picking verses then you are also cherry picking just the "virtuous" verses to say that it is not evil, so it's a fallacy to use that argument. By the way there are many many more "evil" verses than the ones I quoted.

Regarding the Jihadi part, oh but there is a high chance they are following all the rules of the Quran, one might say better than any other so called follower of Islam. They behead all non-believers and have their wives covered and beat the **** out of them if they don't obey. They will also face a cow towards the city of Mecca, cut its throat and let it bleed out before eating it for it to be halal. It would seem they follow much of it to a tee. How is it that you know they don't follow the "virtuous" parts of the Quran, are you with them 24/7 and also know how often they pray? You can watch how faithful they are to Islam with the beheadings, the stoning of women and other violent parts of the Quran available on many "watch people die" websites showing these videos. There is usually a new video of these acts every day popping up showing how faithful they are to Islam.

I once accidentally interrupted a work colleague during one of his daily prayer sessions.

From my experience of him, he was devoutly religious, and not at all violent.

So are you trying to tell me that you somehow know, he wasn't following "much of it to a tee", when he neglected to behead me and strike off my fingertips?

Given that, by your own admission, you are not acquainted with all verses, how did you determine the nonexistence of instructions, forbidding needless acts of violence?

 

[Darc Knight]

There are certainly voilent verses in the Quran particularly the verses of Mohamed, whereas Christianity, being based on the New Testament is about forgiving everything. Before someone posts a verse from the Old Testament remember the New Testament teaches forgiveness even if something is a Sin according to the Old Testament.

I do think we need to "push back" against Islam but still be tolerant and inclusive.

 

[Tisme]

We wouldn't be able to find the equivalent in the good Christian and Jewish bible?

And have you seen what "Christians" have been doing around the world the past 500 odd years? It makes Chin Shi Huang's book burning and burying alive scholars look like a prank around the camp fire.

New Testament revises the old testament.

 

[Tisme]

If theists quote ancient texts as reason to support their argument or persecute homosexuals for example, then using the same logic atheists are reasonable in "cherry picking" less flattering verses.

Who told you that?

 

[fiftyeight]

When did I ever say that cherry picking of verses, in pursuit of one's hateful agenda, was reasonable?
I believe that my posts here are highlighting the irrationality of such an approach!!
Was I failing to deliver on the abovementioned intention?

It was not aimed at you specifically, I could of worded it better. Theists do quote specific verses to justify positions for both good and bad. Early morning TV and my brief time at a cathloic school were filled with quoting verses.

 

[fiftyeight]

Who told you that?

It was an acid flashback