National Broadband Network

[drsmith]

I would argue that big ticket infrastructure is also a basic Government duty...who built the old copper network? who built the bulk of the electricity distribution network? would private enterprise build the snowy scheme?

remember the last 2 Sydney - Melbourne very fast trains...come to nothing after the Govt feasibility money ran out....Dr you are obviously a fan of do nothing, hands off government, 1 vote Tony is your 'go to man' when you want nothing done.

The NBN debate really focuses our choice in this election...going forward with Julia and going nowhere with Tony...i know where i want this country to go.

Who sold CBA ?

They want to do the same with the NBN, but how will the taxpayer get value for money if the underlying investment does not earn a commercial return in the first place ?

 

[Calliope]

How can she do it now? There is no NBN mainland deployment - it is only just beginning.

You obviously did not read my post. Gillard revealed a plan for patients in regional, rural and outer suburban locations to claim a Medicare rebate for consultations with city specialists in their local doctors's office via Labor's National Broadband Network.
This would cost $400M sometime down the track

We are talking about diagnostics here, not brain surgery. She has suggested nothing here that it cannot be done now with our present broadband speeds.

 

[Calliope]

I was trying to keep the politics out of this thread. How much is Labors PPL costing? HUH ?

Why? Socialists want a Government owned and run NBN. Conservatives believe an efficient broadband service can be provided by private enterprise and much more cheaply. Malcolm Turnbull explains why, for those who care to read the link.

AUSTRALIANS understand high-quality, affordable broadband is a critical part of the infrastructure we need to prosper.

As one of the founders of OzEmail, Australia's first big internet company, I believe passionately in broadband and the power of the internet. But as a businessman and member of parliament I also believe passionately in not wasting taxpayers' dollars on white elephants.

So what's the broadband debate about? On the one hand Labor is spending at least $43 billion (and maybe much more) on the most expensive network in the world.

On the other, the $6bn Coalition plan will fix those parts of Australia's broadband infrastructure where intervention is justified: increasing competition in the main networks that link towns and cities and subsidising faster connections in poorly served suburban, regional and rural areas.

The Coalition's spend is less but all Australians will have access to privately provided broadband services, most of which are virtually indistinguishable from Labor's, just at a much lower cost.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...he-nbn-will-fail/story-e6frgd0x-1225906080793

 

[basilio]

I think the key questions most people have identified in the debate is whether this particular piece of national infrastructure is best value for money in terms of

1) Cost efficiency of implementing it
2) The economic and social value it might generate
3) Other priorities for scarce resources

I tend to think that the economic value of super fast internet is overrated. When people already have access to ADSL 2 the extra speed seems to be to simply download movies a bit faster. Obviously there will be some particular business capacities that are worthwhile ie teleconferencing but these can be accessed through current internet capacities. (And anyway the price gouging in the middle of these operations does not make them particularly business friendly)

My overriding concern is that I can see many other priorities for large licks of capital. In a particular I think our electricity supplies should be overhauled with a focus on long term renewable energy. ie solar thermal power stations, geo thermal power stations, possibly wave, wind. This is a big bill.

I suggest that if we start to see a continuation of the extreme climate events now becoming more common around the world there will be equally large bills for national reconstruction. Certainly the CSIRO has flagged this question repeatedly in it's discussion on the effects of climate change.

 

[tayser]

I think the key questions most people have identified in the debate is whether this particular piece of national infrastructure is best value for money in terms of

1) Cost efficiency of implementing it
2) The economic and social value it might generate
3) Other priorities for scarce resources

I tend to think that the economic value of super fast internet is overrated. When people already have access to ADSL 2 the extra speed seems to be to simply download movies a bit faster. Obviously there will be some particular business capacities that are worthwhile ie teleconferencing but these can be accessed through current internet capacities. (And anyway the price gouging in the middle of these operations does not make them particularly business friendly)

My overriding concern is that I can see many other priorities for large licks of capital. In a particular I think our electricity supplies should be overhauled with a focus on long term renewable energy. ie solar thermal power stations, geo thermal power stations, possibly wave, wind. This is a big bill.

I suggest that if we start to see a continuation of the extreme climate events now becoming more common around the world there will be equally large bills for national reconstruction. Certainly the CSIRO has flagged this question repeatedly in it's discussion on the effects of climate change.

ADSL2+ max speed (22mbps) is only available to people who live less than 1km from a telephone exchange - not all businesses and not all households live within this distance - the average speed that people are getting on current ADSL/ADSL2+ technology is around 1.5mbit to 3-4mbit.

You fail to make mention of the fact that consumers do not have access to the same services (read: bandwidth) as businesses. Yes, universities, hospitals & many businesses have higher capacity services but if you're to take full advantage of telecommuting / teleconferencing BOTH ENDS need to have similar types of connections for it to work without slow downs.

We have what is called the "Digital Divide" with current technologies where consumers, businesses and governments have varying levels of internet capability thus impeding application development as you have to cater for the slowest common denominator.

THE NBN WILL GO A LONG WAY TO COMPLETELY REMOVING THIS FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF AUSTRALIANS.

And for f**k's sake people it's not just about downloading more movies for consumers - let's bring us right to the topic of this forum: Where is the next generation of trading applications and tools going to take us? You may not be able to think of where it'll be, but you can bet your socks that someone somewhere in the world is thinking of of richer content which will no doubt be far more bandwidth hungry than the poxy chart + data feed from the ASX that most of you currently use.

In 1995-2000 if you were trading equities you would have used a few kbytes of data to place your orders over the phone to your broker. Today you're probably using 50-100megabytes filling your charts with data and executing orders on line - just ask yourself where you're going to be in another 10 years time and what sort of application you're going to be using.

That's one - relevant to this forum - example of how this network will help us go forward - now times that by about 1000 for the rest of the services sector.

I cannot fkn well believe how many people are ****canning this when all throughout the Howard years people yearned for infrastructure planning and here comes possibly one of the smartest infrastructure projects since the Snow Mountains Scheme.

 

[bellenuit]

In 1995-2000 if you were trading equities you would have used a few kbytes of data to place your orders over the phone to your broker. Today you're probably using 50-100megabytes filling your charts with data and executing orders on line -

Yes....... and all of that came with minimal government involvement. If there is a need, it will be provided.

 

[trainspotter]

That's one - relevant to this forum - example of how this network will help us go forward - now times that by about 1000 for the rest of the services sector.

I cannot fkn well believe how many people are ****canning this when all throughout the Howard years people yearned for infrastructure planning and here comes possibly one of the smartest infrastructure projects since the Snow Mountains Scheme.

LOL at the "going forward" remark. Well done on the propoganda machine. Care to quantify the "times that by about 1000" statement? QLD Health Dept can't even install a pay system for crying out loud. What chance do you think we will have with the latest technology that MOST people don't even understand? The ATO has only just started talking to Centrelink AND STILL THEY STUFF IT UP ! And you want the Guvmint to handle this roll out?

As for the Howard jibe .... wasn't it Keating who went on some bent about budget surplus's and stuffed the infrastrucure as well. Howard just took over and paid off debt.

The Snowy Scheme is also considered economically important for Australia. It supplies vital water to the farming industries of inland New South Wales and Victoria. The system's power stations also produce up to ten per cent of all electricity needs for New South Wales.

So what is NBN gonna do again? Provide water and electricity? Essential services? Nope ... the internet is gonna be faster. More technology that only a few understand. The problem I see is that there are too many systems out there now that don't talk to each other. Running it through one cable around Australia is somehow going to improve this?

Your thrust was this "Today you're probably using 50-100megabytes filling your charts with data and executing orders on line - just ask yourself where you're going to be in another 10 years time and what sort of application you're going to be using. "

My parry is this "What happens in 10 years time when the programmers figure out a way to make aplications run faster and using less megabytes?" Intel already have i7 chips that process information faster. New encrytpions and codeware is being invented to release memory hungry programmes.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for having the latest technology at my fingertips but not at such a social cost that this will deliver.

 

[boofhead]

New hospitals etc. have nothing to do with NBN. For those that are suggesting it is one or the other why aren't they suggesting other government things be cut instead?

Govt expects to put in 26 billion - over the 8 year construction period. The fibres should be in operation for in excess of 40 years.

Private enterprise highlights why the libs suggestion will have issues. Many areas don't have ADSL, plenty of exchanges have only Telstra equipment. Telstra has been known to drag their feet in doing what needs to be done to get competitor's equipment operational. Libs have said they don't want to do anything to damage Telstra. Telstra has a lot of people on RIMs which are sometimes capped to below 3 mbit.

Lots of ADSL2+ customers get less than 12 mbit sync with less throughput. You also have much poorer upload speeds.

People grow in to their environments.

It is no surprise that many countries are moving to fibre to the home.

I do agree with a previous poster the electricity grid needs work. Not sure how a govt will manage that with how some states have sold a lot off. Perhaps that can be the next major project.

 

[sails]

I think the technology is great and I would enjoy the speeds NBN may offer.

That said, I am concerned that the government backing NBN does not have a good track record at implementing major schemes. Their estimates tend to blow out and then they will have to recoup this money somehow.

What if they then tax all internet use heavily to pay for this monster they created? The basic internet we know today could well become unaffordable through heavy taxes. Just a thought - I'm no techie.

Maybe it should be handled by private enterprise and take the politics out of it.

 

[Calliope]

I cannot fkn well believe how many people are ****canning this when all throughout the Howard years people yearned for infrastructure planning and here comes possibly one of the smartest infrastructure projects since the Snow Mountains Scheme.

Yes, almost on a par with the BER.

I hope this comment doesn't provoke more gutter language.

 

[So_Cynical]

Who sold CBA ?

They want to do the same with the NBN, but how will the taxpayer get value for money if the underlying investment does not earn a commercial return in the first place ?

The maths is pretty easy...Telstra has 9 million fixed line customers that they either direct sell to, or provide for wholesale via other retailers....Telstra as part of the deal they have done with NBNco will be forced to hand over there customers as the copper lines will be made redundant.

9 million X $25 a month = 225 mill a month x 12 months = 2.7 billion a year..and that's just the wholesale for the most basic service, to really understand what's going on you have to turn back the clock to the 60's and 70's and think Monopoly.

NBN co will basically be a monster monopoly with 100% of the wholesale market...Telstra will just be a big retailer (#1 retailer) and perhaps service provider.

My overriding concern is that I can see many other priorities for large licks of capital. In a particular I think our electricity supplies should be overhauled with a focus on long term renewable energy. ie solar thermal power stations, geo thermal power stations, possibly wave, wind. This is a big bill.

We need a smart electricity grid...and before we can spend the money on the smart grid you need a information delivery system...say something like a national (light speed) fibre optic network to enable the upgrade of the national electricity grid to a smart grid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

A smart grid delivers electricity from suppliers to consumers using two-way digital technology to control appliances at consumers' homes to save energy, reduce cost and increase reliability and transparency. It overlays the electricity distribution grid with an information and net metering system.

Such a modernized electricity network is being promoted by many governments as a way of addressing energy independence, global warming and emergency resilience issues. Smart meters may be part of a smart grid,

 

[noirua]

Australia has to move towards the fast lane on broadband as Japan is so far ahead. Second rate technology in the Aussie Tiger economy isn't thinkable.

 

[pilots]

Tell me have I got this wrong???? we are going to spend $$$$$$$$$ on this new F/O cable, now most of my info on the net comes from overseas in a COAXIAL CABLE, now no matter how fast Australia is, I am always going to be slowed down by the coaxial cable, am I right?????????, thanks.

 

[Mofra]

Tell me have I got this wrong???? we are going to spend $$$$$$$$$ on this new F/O cable, now most of my info on the net comes from overseas in a COAXIAL CABLE, now no matter how fast Australia is, I am always going to be slowed down by the coaxial cable, am I right?????????, thanks.

No.

Submarine cables are optical, generally have multiple lines for redundancy and Australia's involvement is heavily regulated by the Telco Act and the ACMA.

 

[Calliope]

Australia has to move towards the fast lane on broadband as Japan is so far ahead. Second rate technology in the Aussie Tiger economy isn't thinkable.

Everybody wants high speed broadband if it is at an affordable price. The problem is whether a socialist government can actually manage the cost of the roll out. We know their record. They have given us a figure of $43B which they have plucked from thin air.

At present they are starting the roll out in selected marginal seats. Will they be still enthusiastic in these areas if they win the election?

And can we trust a government, which wants to censor the internet, to run it? We know what is happening in China where they are giving Google a hard time. Last week Chinese hackers created havoc on Google Mail.

 

[trainspotter]

The maths is pretty easy...Telstra has 9 million fixed line customers that they either direct sell to, or provide for wholesale via other retailers....Telstra as part of the deal they have done with NBNco will be forced to hand over there customers as the copper lines will be made redundant.

9 million X $25 a month = 225 mill a month x 12 months = 2.7 billion a year..and that's just the wholesale for the most basic service, to really understand what's going on you have to turn back the clock to the 60's and 70's and think Monopoly.

NBN co will basically be a monster monopoly with 100% of the wholesale market...Telstra will just be a big retailer (#1 retailer) and perhaps service provider.

We need a smart electricity grid...and before we can spend the money on the smart grid you need a information delivery system...say something like a national (light speed) fibre optic network to enable the upgrade of the national electricity grid to a smart grid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

Telstra and the NBN huh? The deal involves Telstra receiving compensation for eventually shutting down its copper wire network and cable broadband network. Still another 12 months before the shareholders agree to the deal as well. Oh well ...... more pie in the sky stuff. SO the Government is paying Telstra 11 billion to ACCESS their existing technology in the vain hope that they will shut down their existing technology and switch to the fibre optic cable?

Heyyyyyyyy ...... didn't the Government SELL Telstra because they didn't want to be seen as a monopoly in the market place? Now they are buying it back?

Monopoly - In economics it exists when a specific individual or an enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it.

Remember when the banks told us to go online and use internet banking as it was FREE. Not so free anymore now isn't it?

As for the electricity grid being "smart" it does not even work half the damn time. IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED FIRST before we spend 43 BILLION DOLLARS making it work more efficiently.

A failure at TransGrid's Dural substation caused the outage, an EnergyAustralia spokeswoman said. TransGrid owns and operates the upstream transmission network, which supplies retailers such as EnergyAustralia.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-switches-on-again-after-huge-blackout-20100707-zzbk.html

GAWDSAKE peoples wake up to yourselves.

 

[Julia]

Everybody wants high speed broadband if it is at an affordable price. The problem is whether a socialist government can actually manage the cost of the roll out. We know their record. They have given us a figure of $43B which they have plucked from thin air.

It's not just the cost factor but also whether they can actually get it right.
Considering the utter chaos of something as simple as the pink batts scheme, why would anyone have any confidence in their management of something much more complicated?

 

[tayser]

all of you do yourselves a favour and read Quigley's speech: http://www.itnews.com.au/News/229175,quigleys-big-stand-the-full-speech.aspx

 

[drsmith]

all of you do yourselves a favour and read Quigley's speech: http://www.itnews.com.au/News/229175,quigleys-big-stand-the-full-speech.aspx

Tomorrow we will be releasing a more detailed 80 page technical Product Description document for our Fibre product.

According to NBN Co, it will cost at least $37bn to build.

Our business case requires equity funding by the Government of around $27 billion. This is not the total capital costs, as we expect to raise debt, without Government guarantees, of at least $10 billion.

 

[sails]

Malcolm Turnbull's views on the NBN debate: Why the NBN will fail

As one of the founders of OzEmail, Australia’s first big internet company, I believe passionately in broadband and the power of the internet.

But as a businessman and Member of Parliament I also believe passionately in not wasting billions of taxpayers' dollars on white elephants...

It's quite a long article detailing his views. He also believes it will increase the cost of internet usage which is something I questioned in an earlier post.

The NBN will increase internet costs for users

Full story: http://www.businessspectator.com.au...wireless-pd20100816-8D3V8?OpenDocument&src=mp

Once the government has built a vast white elephant of a network, utterly incapable of earning a reasonable return on capital invested but legislatively assured of a monopoly over carriage of internet and telephony services, what do you think is going to happen to user charges?

One possibility is that the monopoly provider, protected against all competitors, jacks up prices as far as it can. The implementation study estimates that for the NBN to earn merely the bond rate, real prices will need to increase by 1 per cent a year rather than decrease rapidly as they have in recent years and will continue to do in other countries. Industry experts anticipate monthly bills that could be in the hundreds of dollars.

Full story here: http://www.businessspectator.com.au...wireless-pd20100816-8D3V8?OpenDocument&src=mp